Expected Salary for a c# programmer

Selkies

I'm a c# developer with 1 year intern experience and 1.3 years post grad experience with the same company, any idea what I should expect to earn. I've had a look at the salary survey and it says anywhere between 30 and 55k but that isn't exactly helpful when asking my boss for a raise. I know this isn't the best time to do so but I'm on less than 30 which isn't right for what I do.

damnyanks

What industry are you in. How many people support / develop the product / system you are working on.

How big is the company.

Selkies

damnyanks wrote: »

What industry are you in. How many people support / develop the product / system you are working on.

How big is the company.

I've written a web application for this company, I'm the only developer.
I maintain/fix that, develop more features etc.
There are less than 5 in the company, its a starter that isn't making money yet.

However that really shouldn't affect my wage given that I'm not a charity for small companies or an investor but an employee who could be an employee elsewhere right?

jimmycrackcorm

The usual grad salary is between 25k and 30k. I'd expect, given these times that you'd be lucky to push much past 30k.

Selkies

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The usual grad salary is between 25k and 30k. I'd expect, given these times that you'd be lucky to push much past 30k.

The salary survey for March 2009 says that c# developers start at 30k, can you provide something more authoritative or withdraw your claim.

Also with 1.3 years post grad experience I'm not quite a graduate.

leeroybrown

Selkies wrote: »

The salary survey for March 2009 says that c# developers start at 30k, can you provide something more authoritative or withdraw your claim.

Which salary survey are you quoting? I'm sure that I've seen recent figures that put a c# developer with your experience level in the €25-35k range. Also, are you sure that those figures were definitely for March - the surveys often tend to have figures that are six months out of date at publication. On top of that I'd be very reluctant to trust a salary survey at the moment unless you're very sure that your area is holding up very well despite the downturn.

Maybe you do deserve a higher salary but I'm not sure if you'll find a way to do anything other than maintain your current salary at the moment.

I know a few good graduates (with some decent work experience) who'd jump at a job as a c# developer for quite a bit less than €25k. They can't find anything at the moment...

Selkies

leeroybrown wrote: »

Which salary survey are you quoting? I'm sure that I've seen recent figures that put a c# developer with your experience level in the €25-35k range. Also, are you sure that those figures were definitely for March - the surveys often tend to have figures that are six months out of date at publication. On top of that I'd be very reluctant to trust a salary survey at the moment unless you're very sure that your area is holding up very well despite the downturn.

Maybe you do deserve a higher salary but I'm not sure if you'll find a way to do anything other than maintain your current salary at the moment.

I know a few good graduates (with some decent work experience) who'd jump at a job as a c# developer for quite a bit less than €25k. They can't find anything at the moment...

http://www.brightwater.ie/salary-survey.aspx

leeroybrown

Selkies wrote: »

http://www.brightwater.ie/salary-survey.aspx

The figures in that survey are based on data from September 2008. I'm not sure how much faith I'd have in those figures given that the statistics are almost a year out of date even if they've been massaging them to match the downturn.

Eoin

Even the 2009 range seems pretty optimistic I would have thought.

I'd say 55K is close to what a senior developer would get in a lot of companies. I would consider that kind of cash for someone with a couple of years experience crazy at the peak, let alone now. I'd say ~30 is just about right.

leeroybrown wrote:

even if they've been massaging them to match the downturn.

Or massaging them upwards to get CV's in the door.

cronos

I would expect you to be earning between 37 and 40k per year. Based on your experience at the end of year two of your post grad experience. Perhaps 33 till then.

Eoin

That sounds on the high side to me.

The_Conductor

cronos wrote: »

I would expect you to be earning between 37 and 40k per year. Based on your experience at the end of year two of your post grad experience. Perhaps 33 till then.

In a loss making company of only 5 employees, with less than 2 years experience out of college?

I think the OP is doing pretty ok. I am personally aware of several c# programmers with considerably more experience than he, out of work at the moment- who would be more than happy to work for less than his wages.

Most of the programmers in here have taken a paycut- as have everyone else. To use an internship and a short period of postgrad experience with the company as a bargaining tool expecting a payrise in the current climate- is wishful thinking tbh.....

homeOwner

My 2 cents. From my experience in IT I found the only way to get a decent salary was to leave and go somewhere else in a more senior role. Its very hard to get an employer to up your salary to anything significant unless you are very lucky to be in a company that is expanding and you happen to get promoted along the way (sometimes by default).

Since the company is very small, if they are successful in the next few years, you are well placed to end up in a very good senior role fairly quickly if you are any good since you have seniority over any new comers and can grow with the company. So sticking with a low salary now could pay off in the long run.

yop

smccarrick wrote: »

In a loss making company of only 5 employees, with less than 2 years experience out of college?

I think the OP is doing pretty ok. I am personally aware of several c# programmers with considerably more experience than he, out of work at the moment- who would be more than happy to work for less than his wages.

Most of the programmers in here have taken a paycut- as have everyone else. To use an internship and a short period of postgrad experience with the company as a bargaining tool expecting a payrise in the current climate- is wishful thinking tbh.....

Have to agree with you there on them points, small company and loss making and you want a pay rise above 30k for a grad??? :rolleyes:

I know plenty who have taken pay hits myself included so if you were to hit 25k for that level of experience then that would be more suited.
There are plenty of programmers out there and plenty with more experience who would jump on that salary.

Keep the head down, learn your stuff and when you are up around the 3 year mark get your salary up around the 30's, thats if the company survives!!

Good luck

Selkies

leeroybrown wrote: »

The figures in that survey are based on data from September 2008. I'm not sure how much faith I'd have in those figures given that the statistics are almost a year out of date even if they've been massaging them to match the downturn.

It also gives March 2009

bullpost

I'd say sit tight for at least 6 months.
Going in now would mean the cards are all stacked on the employers side and you run the risk of talking yourself out of a job.

Selkies

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The usual grad salary is between 25k and 30k. I'd expect, given these times that you'd be lucky to push much past 30k.

leeroybrown wrote: »

I know a few good graduates (with some decent work experience) who'd jump at a job as a c# developer for quite a bit less than €25k. They can't find anything at the moment...

eoin wrote: »

Even the 2009 range seems pretty optimistic I would have thought.

I'd say 55K is close to what a senior developer would get in a lot of companies. I would consider that kind of cash for someone with a couple of years experience crazy at the peak, let alone now. I'd say ~30 is just about right.




Or massaging them upwards to get CV's in the door.

cronos wrote: »

I would expect you to be earning between 37 and 40k per year. Based on your experience at the end of year two of your post grad experience. Perhaps 33 till then.

I'd love to actually just say, yes you're right, almost as much as I'd love to say yes you're right to those who said 35k, but I have no way of verifying anything you've said.

So the question becomes how do I know what I should be paid

I'm not sure there is any way to find out, everyone has a different idea.
I guess I could apply for some jobs and see what happens...
Don't really want to do that

Eoin

Look at it this way: if you were to leave in the morning, they would probably find someone with more experience for 30K. It also sounds like you're getting good experience where you are, and I don't know if you'd get more than a junior level position elsewhere. I don't think you have any leverage really.

Selkies

eoin wrote: »

Look at it this way: if you were to leave in the morning, they would probably find someone with more experience for 30K. It also sounds like you're getting good experience where you are, and I don't know if you'd get more than a junior level position elsewhere. I don't think you have any leverage really.

Can you provide some sort of proof of what you are saying?

InReality

Well its about how much you can negotiate isn't it

Look at it in terms of % , a company is never likely to give you a big % pay rise.

Moving companies is the way to do this.

I'd say you could get to 30 , or a max of 10% from where you are now.

Talk to your mates about salaries if you can.

Eoin

Selkies wrote: »

Can you provide some sort of proof of what you are saying?

What kind of proof are you expecting?

The_Conductor

Selkies wrote: »

Can you provide some sort of proof of what you are saying?

Give me the name and address of your employer- I'll have several c# programmers with significant programming experience contact them and offer to take your job at a discount to your current salary. What do you have in mind?

jhegarty

Selkies wrote: »

Can you provide some sort of proof of what you are saying?

Drop down the social welfare office for some.

The_Conductor

jhegarty wrote: »

Drop down the social welfare office for some.

Or the local golf course- there are plenty taking a time out in the current climate. Bastards.....

cronos

smccarrick wrote: »

Give me the name and address of your employer- I'll have several c# programmers with significant programming experience contact them and offer to take your job at a discount to your current salary. What do you have in mind?

Yes but they wouldnt have his knowledge of the company he works in. Its not always as simple as just having experience of C# java c++ etc. Plus im sure you as a recruiter would love to take your cut.

The_Conductor

cronos wrote: »

Yes but they wouldnt have his knowledge of the company he works in. Its not always as simple as just having experience of C# java c++ etc. Plus im sure you as a recruiter would love to take your cut.

I'm not a recruiter- far from it.
A company with 5 employees is not going to a lot of knowledge to get used to- a programmer is selling his/her skillset, not their organisational knowledge.

The fact of the matter is there are a considerable number of experienced programmers available at the moment- in almost every discipline, at considerably lower rates than they would have commanded even a year ago. Salaries have fallen significantly, and continue to do so.

cronos

smccarrick wrote: »

I'm not a recruiter- far from it.
A company with 5 employees is not going to a lot of knowledge to get used to- a programmer is selling his/her skillset, not their organisational knowledge.

The fact of the matter is there are a considerable number of experienced programmers available at the moment- in almost every discipline, at considerably lower rates than they would have commanded even a year ago. Salaries have fallen significantly, and continue to do so.

I did not know that the OP worked in a company with 5 employees. My expectations are based on working as an analyst/programmer. I don't believe you can build high quality software without a knowledge of the domain/organisation your building the software for. This is just my belief as an agile programmer working in a test driven development environment.

The_Conductor

cronos wrote: »

I did not know that the OP worked in a company with 5 employees. My expectations are based on working as an analyst/programmer. I don't believe you can build high quality software without a knowledge of the domain/organisation your building the software for. This is just my belief as an agile programmer working in a test driven development environment.

Yes- according to the OP- its a startup company, of less than 5 employees, that has yet to make a profit (and good luck to it in the current climate).

I do agree with what you're saying about knowledge of a domain/organisation (and its business), it makes perfect sense.

cronos

smccarrick wrote: »

Yes- according to the OP- its a startup company, of less than 5 employees, that has yet to make a profit (and good luck to it in the current climate).

I do agree with what you're saying about knowledge of a domain/organisation (and its business), it makes perfect sense.

I just read back and your right he did say 5 people in a start up that are not making money yet. I take back my salary expectations based on that. Working in a startup is a risk that can go either way. If it takes off in the next year you could get loads of responsibility cause your in a the beginning.

OP you could ask to keep your base rate of pay the same, but ask for generous incentives based on the performance of the startup. Or perhaps some tiny tiny piece of ownership of the company based on loyalty to the company.

AARRRGH

The days of graduates starting on 35 - 40k are gone.

The days of large salaries are gone.

Seriously, the party is over.

Stop comparing your salary to the salaries of the boom times.

Around 30k sounds pretty good right now for someone with 2 years development experience.

Realise we are in a long, painful recession (probably 20+ years) and be happy you have a job.

Kinetic^

Selkies wrote: »

I've written a web application for this company, I'm the only developer.
I maintain/fix that, develop more features etc.
There are less than 5 in the company, its a starter that isn't making money yet.

However that really shouldn't affect my wage given that I'm not a charity for small companies or an investor but an employee who could be an employee elsewhere right?

They're not making money but you expect them to somehow pull a raise for you out of thin air?!