Considerations for an independant DTT User Group?

slegs

What about an independent group formed from boards? Nothing is better than independent accreditation anyway.

We could publish a list of suitable TVs and come up with a website, logo and sticker. Retailers could fund the cost by signing up to the program for a nominal fee and in return they get the info, some training material for sales people and the rights to use the material/branding/stickers.

They would only be allowed to put stickers and logos on TVs/STBs listed on the website (only in their interest anyway as the customer wouldn't take to long to find out if it wasn't compatible). Signed up retailers could also be listed on the website driving consumers in their direction - basically becoming sponsors of the program for their own benefit also.

Maybe DTTReady.ie?

Two levels of accreditation
- DTT Ready (Can fully receive FTA MPEG4 broadcasts and 7 day EPG)
- DTT Ready Plus (meets additional RTENL features to full specification as published - MHEG5, HD Ready, CI Slot for possible future Pay TV etc)

Any thoughts.? There would be legal advice needed and maybe some support from RTE/RTENL but I think RTE would jump at it as they wouldnt have to take the cost.

jonmcc

slegs, seriously good idea on DTTReady.ie scheme.
I see where you're going with the 2-level accreditation but I would definitely keep it to no more than two- you could easily tie yourself up in knots making ever finer definitions of compliance/accreditation.

You have me sold on the idea, now where do we take it from here?
Can you drive this? I will help in any way I can.

Who else is willing to push this forward? Lets get behind slegs' idea, get a team together and take control of the sitution ourselves instead of waiting for RTE/RTENL etc to wake up!

Parser

Despite my leaning towards an MPEG2 based system, I'd be able to help out on the web-development side of things.

jonmcc

Parser, That's a great start- and fair play- we need to move forward regardless of our own personal prefs.

slegs, What do you think- Parser can help on site building.
What next?

slegs

To get this going we would need a team of people with some different skills

- Legal experience
- Financial/Accountant
- Technical with design/web (thx parser) and Broadcast/DVB/AV Equipment knowledge

We could form as a non- profit / charity type body and go from there.

If there is some desire to drive this from the boards community I would put some effort to it but not on my own.

We would clearly need some interaction with RTENL and this could be requested via a meeting before we put any serious effort in place.

Lets see if there are any other interested parties over the next week and we can organise a get together to discuss if there is interest.

There are lots of people on here with huge detailed knowledge who could definitely contribute.

jonmcc

slegs,

You definitely won't be on your own buddy; as I said before, I'll help in any way I possibly can.
I have a general and reasonable technical knowledge of the subject and some amateur skills that may be useful in the logo/sticker programme (though I'll happily stand aside for anyone more qualified). Also, I worked in TV/HiFi sales some years ago and I've a background in manufacturing supervising so I should be able to help in some way or other.

After reading your posts on this idea I am for the first time in ages something other than frustrated. I'm hopeful and excited and I hope that others will see this as a chance to get in at the beginning of something that could help to forward our interests in this.

Do we need to start a new thread on this?

btw- I could have sworn when I checked earlier I saw a post on a SCART MPEG4 adapter. I think this would be pointless as you'd lose some of the benefits of digital transmissions by going through the SCART as opposed to a YUV Component or HDMI connection even on SD transmissions.

jonmcc

slegs,
I meant to say also- I agree that we should set up a get-together with those interested (name the time and place!) and then communicate with RTENL

mjsmyth

@jonmcc

With regards to the Scart based MPEG4 DTT box of tricks and it being pointless... The vast majority of satellite, cable and DTT boxes out there in Europe connect through Scart, as do most DVD players...

Whilst Scart does lose something in going from Digital -> Analogue -> Digital, I would be of the opinion that on SD TV, it would really be negligible, depending on the quality of scart cable used. Obviously HDMI would be preferred, but since CRT TV's don't have that option (excluding a very very small range of HD CRT), I would imagine that SD DTT receivers will be Scart based for the next few years.

With regards to the setting up of dttready.ie , I would be in favour of something like that and would offer my support and skills. As it happens, i have spoken with the people behind this site:
http://www.paras.org.uk/docs/index.shtml
and asked if it was ok to take their document and change it for the Irish market. They replied saying that I could go ahead and make the changes. Perhaps some might take a look at the PDF here and let me know if you think it worthwhile.

MJ

watty

RGB SCART (not composite) is just as good as HDMI for SD, unless the TV is substandard.

I'm using ANALOGUE vga as I type at 1600x1200 @ 60Hz progressive, 19" screen as I type. It's sharper than most HDMI based sets. VGA is very similar signals to RGB SCART.

The only reason you need HDMI for HD is that for security they decided not to have an HD version of SCART. The HDMI has HDCP to stop direct recording. It's possible to do 2048 x 1536 at least on an RGB SCART cable and connectors if they had decided to allow it. Many set boxes for Cable, Satellite or DTT won't do HD on component for the same reason even though consoles have done it for years.

maxg

slegs wrote: »

What about an independent group formed from boards? Nothing is better than independent accreditation anyway.

We could publish a list of suitable TVs and come up with a website, logo and sticker. Retailers could fund the cost by signing up to the program for a nominal fee and in return they get the info, some training material for sales people and the rights to use the material/branding/stickers.

They would only be allowed to put stickers and logos on TVs/STBs listed on the website (only in their interest anyway as the customer wouldn't take to long to find out if it wasn't compatible). Signed up retailers could also be listed on the website driving consumers in their direction - basically becoming sponsors of the program for their own benefit also.

Maybe DTTReady.ie?

Two levels of accreditation
- DTT Ready (Can fully receive FTA MPEG4 broadcasts and 7 day EPG)
- DTT Ready Plus (meets additional RTENL features to full specification as published - MHEG5, HD Ready, CI Slot for possible future Pay TV etc)

Any thoughts.? There would be legal advice needed and maybe some support from RTE/RTENL but I think RTE would jump at it as they wouldnt have to take the cost.

What would be the message of DTTReady.ie?
"Ready for irish DTT engineer tests" or "could maybe working after the official rollout"?

watty

There is an 100% official standard and a minimum list of channels. The ONLY thing not decided is public launch date.
(This is making no comment either way as to if I support this idea or not).RTE1, RTE2, TV3, TG4 at start,
Houses of the Oireachtas Channel, Irish Film Channel later as money allows.

More speculative.
An RTE news 24 if RTE ever have one
An RTE 3/ Education/Kids channel
Posibility of 3e

BBC1, 2, 3, 4, Cbeebies, CBBC, ITV 1, 2, 3,, CITV, BBC News24, Parliament, CNN, Sky News, C4, Five and others all best by dish (free) and unlikely to be any UK channels free on DTT ever (Included in a Pay package without extra charge is not "free")

Any Pay Channels (as like SCTV MMDS, UPC MMDS/Cable or Sky) are likely to be limited in number and may never exist, or only exist for a year or so as they depend on a DTT Pay Operator, which can't make money,

A PVR with HD HDMI, SD SCART and DVB-T2 is recommended for a "future proof" solution.
A DVB-T with Composite & RGB SCART with MPEG4 is minimum.
A dual tuner PVR is recommended if you have ever felt the need to record on VHS.

maxg

Sure, there is a 100% official standard but would you guarantee with your name that every manufactorer is following the standards.

slegs

maxg wrote: »

What would be the message of DTTReady.ie?
"Ready for irish DTT engineer tests" or "could maybe working after the official rollout"?

Thats exactly why it would need RTENL involvement or consultation. Any test list would need to be approved by RTENL.

Thanks for the cynical input all the same.

Sam Russell

Surely an official set top box would be a starting point. If RTENL had an approved box with a definite specification, all others would be judged against it.

Obviously, in the long term, all TVs in europe would have an identical spec for the whole market, just as radios and mobile phones have. We want that now, but we have to start somewhere - the stb.

watty

Analogue Radios currently. No universal Digital spec yet.
Also analogue radio can optionally have what ever bands they want.

I'll allow Mobile phones though

Sam Russell

The problem is the legacy sets. If we wait for DTT2, MPEG4, we will not have the problem as we will have the latest. The VHS/Betamax issue did not happen with DVDs as the set manufacturers made their sets compatible with them all (DVDR+, DVDR-, DVDRW, etc.) TVs in a few years will cope with all variants of digital, as they do now with varous PAL and Secam versions.

We should be able to go HD on at least RTE1 from the start.

The Cush

slegs wrote: »

What about an independent group formed from boards? Nothing is better than independent accreditation anyway.

We could publish a list of suitable TVs and come up with a website, logo and sticker. Retailers could fund the cost by signing up to the program for a nominal fee and in return they get the info, some training material for sales people and the rights to use the material/branding/stickers.

Unfortunately in the present economic climate I can't see retailers funding an ad-hoc group for such a scheme considering that state funded campaigns (BAI & RTE) are part of the soon to be signed Broadcasting Act 2009.

We are all frustrated by the lack of action on a public information campaign, DTTReady.ie would have been a good idea 12 months ago.

The OneVision licence bid proposed the "Digital Ireland Group" to promote and certify STB's etc., because of the delay signing the pay DTT contract the Broadcasting Bill was amended last month in the Dail to task RTE to "take steps to promote the availability of (DTT) equipment".

I would guess that RTE will employ DTG Testing Ltd to certify receiving equipment for the Irish market based on the fact that the EasyTv group's bid for the pay DTT muxes, which included RTE, proposed DTG Testing for this task. DTG Testing also carried out the testing of STB's for the DTT Trial which ended last year.

maxg wrote: »

Sure, there is a 100% official standard but would you guarantee with your name that every manufactorer is following the standards.

This is where conformance testing comes in, Freeview and Freesat in the UK employ DTG Testing Ltd to test receivers from manufacturers before they can carry the Freeview/Freesat logos. (New Zealand and Hong Kong also employ DTG Testing)
Boxer had planned to use its testing labs in Sweden for testing its Irish DTT STB's before they could carry the Boxer Ireland logo.

Sam Russell wrote: »

We should be able to go HD on at least RTE1 from the start.

RTE (thru its EasyTV bid) said "A further four National MUXES would become available post 2012: one for PSB (primarily High Definition) and one for the use of non-PSB Channels ...". Can't see HD happening before ASO.

Regarding the poll I chose MPEG4 + DVB-T, it was the best available option when the decision was made last July. Anticipating that MPEG4 would be the chosen standard I ordered my MPEG4 TV in May '08 (2 months before the decision).
If the decision was to be made today I would consider the MPEG4 + DVB-T2 option but a final decision had to be made sometime.

scath

I went for MPEG4 and DVB-T2 because I feel it is the most up-to-date standard and will offer more capacity to DTT which I think is important. It will also keep us in step with the UK and we'll be ready for HD. I know given the current situation T2 may not be necessary at this point but I feel that at least the network end should be T2 until the T2 TVs come in stock because its easier to do these things at build time. Maybe though they will find it cheaper to do it in a few years.

Yea...there was talk of Digital Ireland Group in the Onevision bid. I think if Onevision take the contract Digital Ireland will do the testing with RTÉ in concert with DTG Testing Ltd. That I suspect will happen. I think that the bill left open for RTÉ to source equipment just in case the Pay DTT element falls through for the moment and that RTÉ didn't have the funds for it with Easy TV. I do suspect though that actually Liberty Global will be interested in DTT anyway as a way to phase out MMDS. I think that Onevision will succeed because Doughty Hanson has the interest in it and that UPC via Setanta will also have the interest which means no need to revert to the Easy TV bid.

I think there is nothing to stop RTÉ from taking a stake in the Onevision bid. I guess in a way Liberty aren't really thinking of internet for DTT, as they were prepared to offer DTT under whitelabel to any operators wishing to sell subs that way under the Easy TV bid presentation. So actually I think that Liberty will be welcomed in by Dermot Desmond and Doughty Hanson into Setanta Ireland. And if it was the case that Eircom didn't want to continue with DTT that Liberty would just step in with that stake. But I think Eircom will want to be part of it.

I see the Onevision bid as being successful because of the will there. Also I would imagine that RTÉ NL will have much more confidence in the likes of Arquiva, Doughty Hanson than they had with Communicorp and Boxer Sweden when they sought the guarantees, given that Onevision bidders have interests already in Ireland whereas Boxer Sweden did not. Communicorp would have been seen as a new player into TV. Onevision's team are not new players to TV.

watty

But WHY?
It can't make money.
None of the "players" have money
If it launches at all (very unlikely now give length of time in negotiations) it will go bust in less than 2 years.

jonmcc

Hi All,
mjsmyth/sam russell, apologies for my comment on SCART based MPEG4 unit... it was and is my personal opinion. As mjsmyth pointed out there is a loss in processing through SCART and I can't help thinking its life will not extend too much further (its been around since the late '70s).

In the last number of posts there does seem to be an unfortunate degree of cynicism and getting bogged down in an argument that has already been settled.
Yes, I understand that this thread was started on "Is it too late for MPEG2, or too early for DVB-T2?" but this is now an officially answered question- the standard has been set. That's why I posed the question as to whether we need a new thread.

I still feel enthusiastic and optomistic on slegs' idea on DTTReady.ie and I'm also encouraged with posts like mjsyth's detailing the paras.org.uk site.

I do very much believe there is a point in setting up this because there is no good reason for RTE/RTENL not to proceed without Pay DTT and this could only add to the impetus for them to move forward.

slegs, parser, Sam Russell, mjsmyth and anyone else thats interested- I'm still on for pushing this froward if ye are?

jonmcc

scath, I'm curious... did you get any reply from Tesco to your email on DTT equipment?

Sam Russell

jonmcc wrote: »

Hi All,
mjsmyth/sam russell, apologies for my comment on SCART based MPEG4 unit... it was and is my personal opinion. As mjsmyth pointed out there is a loss in processing through SCART and I can't help thinking its life will not extend too much further (its been around since the late '70s).

The market for that kind of scart based receiver is only for legacy tvs, and only if those devices are as cheap as chips. However bad the degradation is, it is better to have digital rather than poor analogue reception - which is where it will score. I see it as the equivalent of rabbit ears, old second sets.

It is early days for that product - it is only a sales agent pushing it, when it is a mature product, it will be a cheap solution.

jonmcc

Agreed Sam, digital is definitely better than crap analogue (as in my area)- I'd be lost without my Freesat stb.

Plenty of people have invested in new sets but still retain older ones as second sets for 'upstairs'/kids rooms etc.

And... at the risk of seeming pushy... are you interested in helping along this idea of DTTReady.ie?

mjsmyth

I am more than happy to help in any way I can. Its not like I got a lot on at the moment anyway!!

jonmcc

Brilliant MJ. From your posts you seem like you have knowledge based on something more than a passing interest in the subject.

slegs, if you've not been discouraged by some of the more cynical posts (and I can understand the frustration that goes with them), you now have at least parser, mj and myself willing to help.

Sam Russell

jonmcc wrote: »

Brilliant MJ. From your posts you seem like you have knowledge based on something more than a passing interest in the subject.

slegs, if you've not been discouraged by some of the more cynical posts (and I can understand the frustration that goes with them), you now have at least parser, mj and myself willing to help.

I do not know what I can do to help, but I am willing to give it some time.

STB

slegs wrote: »

What about an independent group formed from boards? Nothing is better than independent accreditation anyway.

We could publish a list of suitable TVs and come up with a website, logo and sticker. Retailers could fund the cost by signing up to the program for a nominal fee and in return they get the info, some training material for sales people and the rights to use the material/branding/stickers.

They would only be allowed to put stickers and logos on TVs/STBs listed on the website (only in their interest anyway as the customer wouldn't take to long to find out if it wasn't compatible). Signed up retailers could also be listed on the website driving consumers in their direction - basically becoming sponsors of the program for their own benefit also.

Maybe DTTReady.ie?

Two levels of accreditation
- DTT Ready (Can fully receive FTA MPEG4 broadcasts and 7 day EPG)
- DTT Ready Plus (meets additional RTENL features to full specification as published - MHEG5, HD Ready, CI Slot for possible future Pay TV etc)

Any thoughts.? There would be legal advice needed and maybe some support from RTE/RTENL but I think RTE would jump at it as they wouldnt have to take the cost.

Thoughts....

I have no doubt that your heart is in the right place slegs. But the question might be asked as to whom you are representing ?

At the end of the day. Irish DTT rollout/Switch on via info campaigns will be the combined effort by the DCENR/RTE and BAIs of this world in conjunction with ASO.

I dont know about the legality of setting up a branding standard for DTT in Ireland given that no name or logo etc has been released as yet and any other attempt at one might cause more confusion further down the line. In that way I would advise caution. There is also an Irish retailers representative organisation ie CEDA that might be a more effective vehicle through which campaigns might be filtered.

Mysuggestion would be that you make contact with officials before you put any time and effort into it.


On the Scart connection device, they are nothing new. They have been on Ebay for over a year and a half for little or nothing directly available from China/Hong Kong. To be honest they look cheap and dangerous!

scath

jonmcc wrote: »

scath, I'm curious... did you get any reply from Tesco to your email on DTT equipment?

Unsuprisingly none Jonmcc. But at least someone has the evidence that they have been told.

Watty, Doughty Hanson have money, they have lost it seems abit on Setanta but they do have it, make no mistake. Also Liberty have it. Arquiva also have it. And Setanta Ireland will have it. If USB sticks are factored in I think money can be made from pay DTT. Its all about the pricing and how its sold. To be honest, there is more in it for Liberty to be part of DTT than anyone else purely to extend their reach similar to Sky in terms of coverage. In terms of Doughty I don't know or Arquiva. But the mere fact given the current situation that Onevision were interested, given what seems more superior experience that Onevision have I think they wouldn't be applying if they thought it wouldn't be successful.

And far from 2 years shut up shop, I think even if it was not going well, Liberty would acquire the stake and use it as a way to sell their product and phase out MMDS. I see it that perhaps Easy TV mightn't bid if lets say Onevision didn't go ahead, but I feel Liberty would go it alone. My feeling is that if Liberty take a stake in Setanta Ireland then if necessary they could rejig stake in Onevision to suit the others. I feel the Onevision will go forward with it. I don't think RTÉ probably have the financial appeitide for Easy TV but I feel Liberty Global have the appetite for spending money.

So I see pay DTT as potentially being a loss leader to Liberty even in the worst case scenario and I think that means that Pay DTT will go ahead which I think it should anyhow. If necessary, that ComReg could encourage that switch from MMDS to DTT in terms of spectrum management. But they may not having to be platform neutral.

maxg

slegs wrote: »

Thats exactly why it would need RTENL involvement or consultation. Any test list would need to be approved by RTENL.

Thanks for the cynical input all the same.

My comment has nothing to do with cynicism. Its simply reality.
Btw who should be legally responsible if something went wrong with anounced compatibility. RTENL?

slegs

maxg wrote: »

My comment has nothing to do with cynicism. Its simply reality.
Btw who should be legally responsible if something went wrong with anounced compatibility. RTENL?

My view is this

RTE/RTENL arent going to spend a penny on this until a PAY DTT supplier is announced. This could take forever. So if they are given the opportunity to work with an independent group without having to spend money they will go for it.

We would work with RTENL to agree the certification and test list as per their published specification. The key part is that we would also need an inside track on the nuances of their setup as per their testing. WE couldnt do this in a vacuum as it would be as you describe.

This would essentially take the place of their certifcation programme and become the official certification program thereby saving them money. The motivation for us and consumers is that we get this out there now and we dont wait until the PAY DTT provider is agreed.

RTE/RTENL would direct retailers/manufacturers to us. We would have to actually test a device with a set list of test cases before we certify. I have been involved in both market testing of software and government regulation and I can guarantee these things dont work fast in large companies/government bodies. There may be an opportunity here to add some momentum to this rollout from an independent source.

Remember what we are saying here. we are saying the device you are buying is DTT "Ready". This does not imply a launched service from RTE. But at least we would be plugged into the official channels and getting the info to the consumer - which is the gap we all I agree is there at the moment.

Without RTENL involvement/consultation this would not work. As the retailers/manufacturers would not take us seriously. We cant do this half assed either as it would just be a waste of time for all involved. If we do this there would be a lot of effort involved. If funded correctly this could be expensed but that would be best case scenario.

Nice to see some interest here in movign forward. I am heartened. I feel we need someone of MAXG's detailed DVB expertise and people like Watty/STB also to really make a go of this.

Lets see some more comments before we call a meet.

slegs

STB wrote: »

Thoughts....

I have no doubt that your heart is in the right place slegs. But the question might be asked as to whom you are representing ?

At the end of the day. Irish DTT rollout/Switch on via info campaigns will be the combined effort by the DCENR/RTE and BAIs of this world in conjunction with ASO.

I dont know about the legality of setting up a branding standard for DTT in Ireland given that no name or logo etc has been released as yet and any other attempt at one might cause more confusion further down the line. In that way I would advise caution. There is also an Irish retailers representative organisation ie CEDA that might be a more effective vehicle through which campaigns might be filtered.

Mysuggestion would be that you make contact with officials before you put any time and effort into it.


On the Scart connection device, they are nothing new. They have been on Ebay for over a year and a half for little or nothing directly available from China/Hong Kong. To be honest they look cheap and dangerous!

Hi STB

I have no commercial interest in this. I am passionate about legal Free TV first and foremost. My SaorTV business is not my primary income and is more a labour of love coming from the same viewpoint. If SaorTV is successful the I would be delighted to be getting an income from something I love doing.

I would be happy to stand back totally and let others do the running. My suggestion is based on looking at this entire situation develop over the last few years. Whether I am involved or not I believe this would be the right thing to do. It would also be alot of fun and promotion for the Boards community if done properly.

cheers
Slegs

slegs

maxg wrote: »

My comment has nothing to do with cynicism. Its simply reality.
Btw who should be legally responsible if something went wrong with anounced compatibility. RTENL?

The legality of the certification is one of the reasons we need legal expertise to set all this up.

None of this is trivial but not impossible either.

byte

Modedit: I've pulled all relevant posts for a thread of it's own, with relation to DTTReady.

Sponge Bob

slegs wrote: »

The legality of the certification is one of the reasons we need legal expertise to set all this up..

All you need to do is to COPYRIGHT a Logo and to clearly state the conditions under which this copyright image may be used . It may only be used by prior agreement where a manufacturer or distributor requests it by email . Any misuse of the copyright image shall result in all devices sold by that manufacturer being decertified forthwith and shall require a resubmission .

Retailers may not use the logo , only manufacturers or distributors . That is because most ( not all) retailers are slippery pricks who peddle freeview tellys already

If a new device it must be checked somehow in 'the lab' ( ie Wattys front room ) . That is the complex bit to my mind . They could be block cleared in a plugfest over a weekend day in Dublin every 4 months or so.

Apart from that only allow Boards users 'in good stead' to prequalify gear based on experience and in that case release the logo to the manufacturer for that model .

The same Boards users in Good Stead preside over the plugfests as well.

If sony want to release a GW100B10GX1 and a GW100B10GX1Rev22 and a GW100B10GX1Z and a GW100B10GX177F model of the same bloody telly then that is 4 certifications required and that is their own bloody fault .

Legal people only come up with reasons why you should be afraid to do something useful, so **** them

watty

Something is Copyright just by publishing and dating it with your name
(c) 2009 A.N. Other.

A Registered Trademark can be created in expensively. This gives some additional benefits.

Oi, Spongebob! My lab isn't much, but it's not my front room.
My friend has a real lab.

However I'm not committing myself for or against this at the minute, but willing to give advice.

HDMI is only required for HD for DRM reasons, HDCP. RGB-SCART is just as high quality and could have done HD also as explained earlier.

So SD needs RGB SCART, + Composite SCART
and
HD needs
HDMI + HDCP, plus upsampling to both 720p or 1080i and downsampling to 720p
and
SD on RGB SCART, + Composite SCART, Downsampling of HD to SD.

The RTENL spec has all this covered.

It's about €2000 minimum for cheapest gear to generate SD & HD DVB-t with the correct TS and MPEG4 content if you have a PC to stick it in. I had it in my last job. Using off air as a test signal doesn't cut it.

netwhizkid

Would be quite happy to help and get involved in this in any way possible. I imported a digital receiver from NZ and battled with Panasonic to eventually get a MPEG4 iDTV also.

kuro_man

Has anyone every asked consumer affairs or advertising standards to investigate/comment/publicise the sale of MPEG2 boxes and iTVs by Irish retailers?
If you find a retailer misselling these items, you should lodge a complaint, even if you have no expectations of actions. If they receive enough submissions, they may be forced to act.

You could also write to the radio stations/newspapers to try to publicise the issue.

jonmcc

kuro_man,

I mentioned the idea of contacting radio stations etc a number of posts back, but got very excitedly taken up with slegs' idea of setting up an independent accreditation group.
I still think the DTTReady.ie group is the way to go but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be contact with radio/papers... so by all means go ahead and raise it as an issue with your local radio