Poker tracking and training sites

Tony_Montana

Ok I am going taking a break from online poker for a while. Before all these tracking sites came out I was making roughly 1k-2k a month off poker. Every single month since my average has gone down and I feel that this is due to all the tracking and training sites out there. I have a feeling that in a few years online poker will only be for guys that can read stats well. I think that it's going to ruin online poker. Am i been overally paranoid here

cardshark202

Tony_Montana wrote: »

Ok I am going taking a break from online poker for a while. Before all these tracking sites came out I was making roughly 1k-2k a month off poker. Every single month since my average has gone down and I feel that this is due to all the tracking and training sites out there. I have a feeling that in a few years online poker will only be for guys that can read stats well. I think that it's going to ruin online poker. Am i been overally paranoid here

So the people who put the most effort in will continue to make the moneys. Sounds fair to me.

Tony_Montana

cardshark202 wrote: »

So the people who put the most effort in will continue to make the moneys. Sounds fair to me.

Ya but it's giving everyone a chance to catch up on the people who have been putting in the effort before these tracking sites came out. Just not fair IMO. I'm going taking a break from online for a while but it'll probably be harder again by the time im back. I can't see why i have gone from making 1-2k a month to basically just barely finishing ahead these sites are just taking the skill out of online poker IMO

Rb

But interpretting stats is a skill in itself, as is playing against them...

Ollieboy

Rb wrote: »

But interpretting stats is a skill in itself, as is playing against them...

but the players is meant to collect the stats, not a 3rd party software. I've also join the race to the bottom and invest in tracking software etc. The sites can stop this tomorrow if they want and Lee Jones discuss this before. At the moment online poker will be full of grinders trying to make money on rake.

zuutroy

Agree with OP...I beat 200nl for 6ptbb over 150k hands in 2008 and now I'm BE at 100nl this year through prob the same sample which is why I've given up.

cardshark202

Hey it sucks, I can barely make any money at poker either anymore, but I know who's fault it is. If you don't put in some effort, then you can't expect to get any rewards.

zuutroy

cardshark202 wrote: »

Hey it sucks, I can barely make any money at poker either anymore, but I know who's fault it is. If you don't put in some effort, then you can't expect to get any rewards.

RoadSweeper

zuutroy

emo>illiterate

phantom_lord

poker doesn't owe u anything imo. if other players use videos/software to improve why can't u?

zuutroy

phantom_lord wrote: »

poker doesn't owe u anything imo. if other players use videos/software to improve why can't u?

I did obv, but I've reached the point where the amount of work I'd have to put in to gain a significant edge would be -life EV because given my results, I'm obviously not very good in comparison to an average player these days. As everyone starts to digest the more advanced concepts it'll get to the point of people swapping money to pay the rake and all but the absolute cream of players will struggle. It's similar to the early days of Betfair. The place was an absolute goldmine; now the margins are so thin that the best systems out there will only marginally beat the commission.

Also my mood is about 400 times better since I quit playing.

Rb

Ollieboy wrote: »

but the players is meant to collect the stats, not a 3rd party software. I've also join the race to the bottom and invest in tracking software etc. The sites can stop this tomorrow if they want and Lee Jones discuss this before. At the moment online poker will be full of grinders trying to make money on rake.

Well that's true, Pokerstars and FullTilt have datamining banned and I'm sure eventually the rest will follow suit.

Personally I think sites like pokertableratings are far worse than datamining for yourself though.

OP seems to be complaining about PokerTracker and Training sites though, as opposed to datamining itself and he himself said every month his results got worse, which is probably a result of others getting better and him sitting around expecting to make the same amount all the time. Sure there's people who used to play nosebleeds pre-UIGEA, training sites etc who went from raking in hundreds of thousands per year to not being able to beat 1/2, most likely because they haven't been bothered advancing their own games.

Like everything else working hard pays off and complacency gets you nowhere. I'm not sitting up in an ivory tower fwiw, I haven't been putting the work in and am stuck playing micro/small limits still and only have myself to blame.

ianmc38

I played 100NL and 200NL this year when i was first starting back and the standard was lol bad. If you think those games are tough then you are either bad at poker or you're choosing to play in the worst games.sure players are better but with site/game selection it's still quite easy to make good money. I actually play some low stakes HA on FTP the other day to unwind after a long day and the standard was ridiculously bad.

Ollieboy

ianmc38 wrote: »

I played 100NL and 200NL this year when i was first starting back and the standard was lol bad. If you think those games are tough then you are either bad at poker or you're choosing to play in the worst games.sure players are better but with site/game selection it's still quite easy to make good money. I actually play some low stakes HA on FTP the other day to unwind after a long day and the standard was ridiculously bad.

I agree, I still think the standard is bad and a lot of players play a very TAG game so its very easy to pick up pots preflop or flop/turn etc. I've only come back to cash games and I think its easier to spot the fish and the good players, but most of the good players have a very single style and don't mix it up, hence there not that great.

I think another problem is everyone is chasing the rake, this leads to tight player preflop and also staying away from sites that might give more value in cash games.

Can someone please explain to me what the **** is the story with the mini-raise in any position by good players? is this a cheap way of trying to see flops with marginal hands and force out the sb to make it heads up. Terrible tactic.

jbravado

I think the OPs post is why live poker is going to continue to thrive. You cant beat online poker you say meh fook that rigged BS just reading stats at this stage Im not a computer yo,can beat me a REAL poker game Im going back to the casino where I can soul read.
Basically at low medium limits there is no real reason to play live unless you are actually bad and struggling to make money online. LOL this is my justification for playing more live in the future. What a fish!

Tony_Montana

phantom_lord wrote: »

poker doesn't owe u anything imo. if other players use videos/software to improve why can't u?

I have Holdem Manager and i do put in a bit of effort but it's still harder to play each month i go on. I just have a feeling that these sites will ruin online poker in about a year

zuutroy wrote: »

I did obv, but I've reached the point where the amount of work I'd have to put in to gain a significant edge would be -life EV because given my results, I'm obviously not very good in comparison to an average player these days. As everyone starts to digest the more advanced concepts it'll get to the point of people swapping money to pay the rake and all but the absolute cream of players will struggle. It's similar to the early days of Betfair. The place was an absolute goldmine; now the margins are so thin that the best systems out there will only marginally beat the commission.

Also my mood is about 400 times better since I quit playing.

I totally agree with this

Tony_Montana

I've decided to move to Pokerstars for the remainder of this month. Even though I won't receive rakebak it will be interesting to see if I can still make more off this site. Bit of an experiment really!! Up 60 dollars after 1 hour so i'll try keep it going

Ollieboy

Tony_Montana wrote: »

I've decided to move to Pokerstars for the remainder of this month. Even though I won't receive rakebak it will be interesting to see if I can still make more off this site. Bit of an experiment really!! Up 60 dollars after 1 hour so i'll try keep it going

to be honest I think people over-rate rakeback. If your a winning player you want to play in the biggest pond with the most small fish. FTP is full of cash players and impossible to get ahead, even I-poker is tough, but stars as plenty of fish at all levels.

Now keep it a secret for ffs

cardshark202

actually rakeback is pretty vital for the majority of players

ianmc38

Yeah rakeback is probably the most underrated thing. Some of the people on my site make 50k+ per year in rakeback alone.

Some people play on X network with X% and are happy with it. For those who do their homework, they can easily take home 10 or even 20% extra per month. If you're raking even 1k, thats a pretty significant amount of money.

I've said it for a long time and I even wrote an article about it, that the smaller sites are where the real value is at. Most people are too lazy or dont want to play with bad software or without stats. I played on a site called PayNoRake poker earlier this year and got action almost everyday at 5/10 and 10/20 HU vs uberfish. I told loads of people about the site, but noone was interested (that site gives 100% rakeback btw). Poker players by their nature are lazy. My advice - If you're struggling at lower stakes, move to a smaller site that doesnt support software. There are loads of them. They have a reasonable amount of traffic at SSNL and microlimits. There are very very few grinders on those sites and the few that are there usually suck. Put half your roll on 2 different sites and you'll have enough action across the 2 sites to keep you busy.

Tony_Montana

ianmc38 wrote: »

Yeah rakeback is probably the most underrated thing. Some of the people on my site make 50k+ per year in rakeback alone.

Some people play on X network with X% and are happy with it. For those who do their homework, they can easily take home 10 or even 20% extra per month. If you're raking even 1k, thats a pretty significant amount of money.

I've said it for a long time and I even wrote an article about it, that the smaller sites are where the real value is at. Most people are too lazy or dont want to play with bad software or without stats. I played on a site called PayNoRake poker earlier this year and got action almost everyday at 5/10 and 10/20 HU vs uberfish. I told loads of people about the site, but noone was interested (that site gives 100% rakeback btw). Poker players by their nature are lazy. My advice - If you're struggling at lower stakes, move to a smaller site that doesnt support software. There are loads of them. They have a reasonable amount of traffic at SSNL and microlimits. There are very very few grinders on those sites and the few that are there usually suck. Put half your roll on 2 different sites and you'll have enough action across the 2 sites to keep you busy.

I totally agree with this. Made 50 dollars in the week. F*** this back to ipoker i go!

Treehouse72

ianmc38 wrote: »

I played on a site called PayNoRake poker earlier this year and got action almost everyday at 5/10 and 10/20 HU vs uberfish. I told loads of people about the site, but noone was interested (that site gives 100% rakeback btw). Poker players by their nature are lazy. My advice - If you're struggling at lower stakes, move to a smaller site that doesnt support software. There are loads of them. They have a reasonable amount of traffic at SSNL and microlimits. There are very very few grinders on those sites and the few that are there usually suck. Put half your roll on 2 different sites and you'll have enough action across the 2 sites to keep you busy.

Yeah, I tried to move to WPEX a year or two back and couldn't believe more people didn't try it too because it was so much more +EV. Unfortunately I had to leave in the end because the traffic was so ludicrously bad (like, 2 or 3 tables at each cash game level).

I also cannot believe the idiotic marketing these no/lo-rake sites have. Why don't they have the slogan: "We pay you to play poker!". For fish who don't even know rake is being taken in the first place, this would be exactly what it would feel like - getting paid to play. I think this approach would get loads of players in, but for some reason WPEX and NoRake insist on making it esoteric by talking about bloody rake which nobody except the nerds understands! Totally baffling to me.

Slash/ED

Security would be an issue with smaller, lesser known sites. I feel safer having my money on sites who you know wont disappear tomorrow morning.

Tony_Montana

Slash/ED wrote: »

Security would be an issue with smaller, lesser known sites. I feel safer having my money on sites who you know wont disappear tomorrow morning.

Ya i totally agree with this. Some sites out there are very dodgy.
There are still alot of big sites that are offering good deals though. All it needs is clever poker players, who really want to make $$ and get the right deal, instead the players are more focused on gambling and are to lazy to get their bankroll boosted. It baffles me

ianmc38

Slash/ED wrote: »

Security would be an issue with smaller, lesser known sites. I feel safer having my money on sites who you know wont disappear tomorrow morning.

Well in some cases maybe. If you take PayNoRake for example theyre part of the action poker network who've been in the business for years. Boards own Culchie used to own a site there IIRC. Also, if the big affiliates like rakethereake and the likes are working with them then you can be sure your money is safe.

Also if that kinda site is too small, then go for somewhere like Boss or UB/Absolute. The games on these sites are less tougher than the major networks. Also if traffic is low spread your roll. Nearly everyone at MSNL and above now has money on at least 2 or 3 sites, often 7 or 8. Diversify and game select.

Im really sick of hearing people giving out about how hard the games are. There are great games if your prepared to sacrifice a few luxuries in order to play with people who are going to donate money to you.

2 great places to play small stakes poker right now:

1. Sky Poker
2. True Money Games

Now how many people will actually try them out?

Tony_Montana

ianmc38 wrote: »

Im really sick of hearing people giving out about how hard the games are. There are great games if your prepared to sacrifice a few luxuries in order to play with people who are going to donate money to you.

2 great places to play small stakes poker right now:

1. Sky Poker
2. True Money Games

Now how many people will actually try them out?

But Ian, you might say your sick of people giving out about how hard the games are. I agree the games are not hard, but from my personal experience YES the games are still easy but they are gone alot harder since 2 years ago. You can move to Sky Poker and yes you might crush the game but without a good deal it's still not more profitable IMO

Mullicker

2 great places to play small stakes poker right now:

1. Sky Poker
2. True Money Games

Sky Poker looks like the fishiest site ever, the commentators are great for the game! TrueMoneyGames has poor traffic, 0-2 tables running at most levels, dunno how fishy it is tho?

ianmc38

Tony_Montana wrote: »

But Ian, you might say your sick of people giving out about how hard the games are. I agree the games are not hard, but from my personal experience YES the games are still easy but they are gone alot harder since 2 years ago. You can move to Sky Poker and yes you might crush the game but without a good deal it's still not more profitable IMO

Actually quite the opposite. The standard on Sky poker is so bad that anyone who is a 3bb+/100 winner at 100NL will absolutely crush the games. There are loads of 1/2 games running, no software and 90% casual donks. Im talking the 80/5 guys. No rakeback deal would ever have the same value as that unless you were getting paid 500% or something.

Headspace

Good posts Ian I would follow your advice but I'm a plo player. Where are the best plo games I'm finding i-poker pretty tough.

mdwexford

Went to open an account there with Sky Poker but the only deposit method is credit card, no Moneybookers or Neteller, kinda sucks.

Slash/ED

mdwexford wrote: »

Went to open an account there with Sky Poker but the only deposit method is credit card, no Moneybookers or Neteller, kinda sucks.

Damn I've no credit card, was also thinking of splashing around and having a look based on Ians recommendation. Ah well...

cooker3

Tony_Montana wrote: »

Ya but it's giving everyone a chance to catch up on the people who have been putting in the effort before these tracking sites came out. Just not fair IMO. I'm going taking a break from online for a while but it'll probably be harder again by the time im back. I can't see why i have gone from making 1-2k a month to basically just barely finishing ahead these sites are just taking the skill out of online poker IMO

Tough **** tbh. If you can't win long term then you're not putting enough effort in. If you don't others will which is what happening. If you are not constantly learning then you are stagnating. You have no divine right to make 1-2k a month. That's a lot of money. You either embrace the software/ training sites and whatever or you lose. It's pretty simple, no amount of whining will help you out.

Ians posts reminds me how lazy I have become as well but least I accept it's my own fault.

Tony_Montana

cooker3 wrote: »

Tough **** tbh. If you can't win long term then you're not putting enough effort in. If you don't others will which is what happening. If you are not constantly learning then you are stagnating. You have no divine right to make 1-2k a month. That's a lot of money. You either embrace the software/ training sites and whatever or you lose. It's pretty simple, no amount of whining will help you out.

Ians posts reminds me how lazy I have become as well but least I accept it's my own fault.

I didn't say i wasnt winning long term? My point is that the game is getting tougher and tougher and that the game is going to turn into a game of strategy and stats. It feels like a computer game at the moment. I have holdem manager. I have studied it inside out and have looked at numerous vids online, I am putting in the effort but these sites are definetly changing the game IMO.:)

cardshark202

If you're playing a game of tennis, and your opponent is using a new head youtek racquet, try playing against him with a wooden racquet from the 1970s

cooker3

Tony_Montana wrote: »

I didn't say i wasnt winning long term? My point is that the game is getting tougher and tougher and that the game is going to turn into a game of strategy and stats. It feels like a computer game at the moment. I have holdem manager. I have studied it inside out and have looked at numerous vids online, I am putting in the effort but these sites are definetly changing the game IMO.:)

This is true. You said you were just above break even. I suppose "not a winning player" or "not a big winning player" would have been more accurate terms on my part.

Yes the games are getting tougher but what do you expect? The game has always about being about strategy. Without any strategy it would be boring. In some sense the harder the games come the less important stats. Take the nosebleed players. Most of them barely use a hud because the playerpool is so small that they know each other inside and out and gameflow is much more important.

But even if it does become more reliant on stats again tough. I just look upon it kind of like evolution. You either evolve and embrace the strategies and technology that works or you die. It doesn't matter what I, you or anybody wants. Just look upon it as a challenge. If you don't want to then *shrug* play more live I guess.

Tony_Montana

cooker3 wrote: »

This is true. You said you were just above break even. I suppose "not a winning player" or "not a big winning player" would have been more accurate terms on my part.

Yes the games are getting tougher but what do you expect? The game has always about being about strategy. Without any strategy it would be boring. In some sense the harder the games come the less important stats. Take the nosebleed players. Most of them barely use a hud because the playerpool is so small that they know each other inside and out and gameflow is much more important.

But even if it does become more reliant on stats again tough. I just look upon it kind of like evolution. You either evolve and embrace the strategies and technology that works or you die. It doesn't matter what I, you or anybody wants. Just look upon it as a challenge. If you don't want to then *shrug* play more live I guess.

No I was never a breakeven player I was always a winning player online and still am.
But I have totally took your point and everyones points into consideration and I have persuaded myself to grow up and take this evolution as it comes. It's like any other game I guess - the older a game gets the more technology gets pumped into it and you got to adapt to these changes. (I told myself 'you don't see Tiger complaining that theres this new Taylor Made driver that makes it easy for players to hit straight).
I have taken a full months break and I am absolutely gagging to get back into action now at the start of next week.

I am a true Capricorn i don't like change. I have played golf for years without ever getting a lesson and poker without ever reading a book. I just like a challenge and embrace it in my own way. But I have decided this was not the correct way to approve the game anymore because there is far to many people getting an edge. So I left my ego and heres what I did.............
I have watched tons of videos and to be honest I would recommend them to anyone. These videos have given me so much confidence in my own game and also taught me a thing or two about small situations that I tended to play wrong in certain cases. I have also got guys to look over my stats on holdem manager and they have given me a few small pointers that I could do differently so fingers crossed my hard work will pay off.

Thanks guys for all your replies and hopefully I won't get upset about future evolutions to come, hopefully I am able to tackle them as I did this one.:cool:

bingobars

ianmc38 wrote: »

I played 100NL and 200NL this year when i was first starting back and the standard was lol bad. If you think those games are tough then you are either bad at poker or you're choosing to play in the worst games.sure players are better but with site/game selection it's still quite easy to make good money. I actually play some low stakes HA on FTP the other day to unwind after a long day and the standard was ridiculously bad.

^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^