Should I be stiff after the gym?

1≠1

You know when you havent been to the gym in a few weeks and the next day your muscles are stiff?

Should that be the case if you go 2/3 times a week?

Khannie

Depends how hard you work out. I exercise between 7 and 10 times a week usually and I regularly have stiff muscles.

EileenG

Pretty much. The object is to stress your muscles enough to cause microdamage, which your body fixes by making your muscles bigger and stronger.

If you do a typical split (legs one day, chest and tris, back and bis, shoulders and abs), you will only work each muscle group once a week, and you should be hitting them hard enough that you do hurt.

Anyone else dread stairs the day after legs?

Khannie

EileenG wrote: »

Anyone else dread stairs the day after legs?

Weirdly....I love it.

metamorphosis

i always feel a sense of accomplishment when im stiff

all_smilz

ULstudent wrote: »

i always feel a sense of accomplishment when im stiff

anyone else hear the simpsons Nelson saying Ha Ha to this?:p

metamorphosis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX3UqY8KZpU

cardio,shoot me

ULstudent wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX3UqY8KZpU

UL, you only put in the part of the URL after the equals,

eg youtube.com/watch?v=xCp-YynBEvE you would only put in xCp-YynBEvE

metamorphosis

cheer im slightly retarded like that

cardio,shoot me

ofc ofc...

devereaux17

no im afraid not, this might be a sign of bad form. dont be afraid to lift a lower weight, better to have proper form than look like a hero in the gym and get injured like u have.

Khannie

devereaux17 wrote: »

and get injured like u have.

doms do not equal injured

podge57

Khannie wrote: »

doms do not equal injured

also doms are more likely to come from higher reps, lower weight, so usually the heavier you go, the less sore you will be (to a certain degree)

Nate--IRL--

podge57 wrote: »

also doms are more likely to come from higher reps, lower weight, so usually the heavier you go, the less sore you will be (to a certain degree)

My legs strenuously object to your above statement. Anyway, I yet to meet any lifter that didn't learn to love the DOMS, it seems we are all masochists.

Nate

Will Heffernan

Khannie wrote: »

doms do not equal injured

DOMS also does not equal good or positive either.

I know that no one is saying this actively but 'pursuing' DOMS or actively 'seeking' DOMS is from a sports performance and physiological development point of view idiotic.

Now I will probably get censored for this as well as I did yesterday. I'm struggling to come to grips with exactly how to express my opinion that something is stupid or idiotic here on boards without getting a 'telling off' but sometimes it just needs to be stated plainly.

Now I agree that some things are subject to interpretation and that some things are peoples opinion but even in a field as broad and diverse as strength and conditioning or fitness training or whatever label you want to give it there are certain elements that can be taken as a 'given' and looking to induce DOMS or thinking that DOMS as described elsewhere in this thread is a positive or productive element of training is simply misguided.

Nate--IRL--

Will Heffernan wrote: »

DOMS also does not equal good or positive either.

How so, could you expand on this point?

Nste

1≠1

I dont get D.O.M.S. after my workout, I only get it when I haven't been to the gym in two weeks. In my workout I am pushing as hard as I can.

Is my workout bad if i got get D.O.M.S?

Nate--IRL--

1≠1 wrote: »

I dont get D.O.M.S. after my workout, I only get it when I haven't been to the gym in two weeks. In my workout I am pushing as hard as I can.

Is my workout bad if i got get D.O.M.S?

Not at all, Doms isn't a requirement for a hard workout, it all depends on what you are training for. What is your workout routine and goals, anyway?

Nate

Will Heffernan

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

How so, could you expand on this point

Not trying to be dismissive...but expanding on it would make for a long story.

Not really sure that people want me post lit reviews or papers to which they won't have access either.

People seem to already think I'm a complete dick and seem to get 'moderated' for every second post. So reticent to get into it here because I can see a 'group kicking' coming on not long after.

If you want to drop me a PM and the academic/research side of things is something that you are interested in then I'll be only to happy to collect some stuff together for you...but you'll have to swear that you'll read every one.

celestial

DOMS doesn't mean squat. I always hear people saying 'oh I'm not feeling it the day after so I wasn't doing enough, etc, etc' - using it as a barometer of progress/intensity is kinda silly.

Look to what you are lifting - heavier than a week ago/two weeks ago? Progression is key.

EileenG

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

My legs strenuously object to your above statement. Anyway, I yet to meet any lifter that didn't learn to love the DOMS, it seems we are all masochists.

Nate

I've wondered about it, would love to do a discreet poll on BB sexual proclivities.

1≠1

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Not at all, Doms isn't a requirement for a hard workout, it all depends on what you are training for. What is your workout routine and goals, anyway?

Nate

My goals is to get toned, I dont have to lose fat I need to build muscle.

Like I can see my muscles but I need to get bigger and lose about 1% in body fat.

Finding it hard to develop the upper part of my chest and my lower abs.

--amadeus--

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I know that no one is saying this actively but 'pursuing' DOMS or actively 'seeking' DOMS is from a sports performance and physiological development point of view idiotic.

I see where you are coming from - I think - in that deliberately pushing further / faster / heavier or whatever so that you'll feel stiff teh next day is stupid, in the sense that you will greatly increase your chances of injury and over training. Likewise you don't need to have DOMS to have had an effective workout so using it as a benchmark isn't wholly effective.

But DOMS is a fairly central part of most peoples fitness experience. And it gets linked (in a Pavlovian way) with good workouts. Speaking personally I know that I "enjoy" the DOMS I have after a long run because I know that it is an indicator of miles in the bank.

Seeing DOMS as an occasional by-product of a good workout rather than the end product in itself is a fairly healthy middle ground, no?

Khannie

Will Heffernan wrote: »

DOMS also does not equal good or positive either.

Nor did I say, or even imply that.

D.R cowboy

Here iam 5 ,9 weight 11st 12 Should I lose weight or turn it into muscle

Remmy

D.R cowboy wrote: »

Here iam 5 ,9 weight 11st 12 Should I lose weight or turn it into muscle

This should be in a seperate thread but you cannot convert fat into muscle.And it depends on your goals.What are your goals?

Will Heffernan

1≠1 wrote: »

My goals is to get toned, I dont have to lose fat I need to build muscle.

You are luckier than most then.

Like I can see my muscles but I need to get bigger and lose about 1% in body fat.

Losing 1% should be the easy part.

Finding it hard to develop the upper part of my chest and my lower abs.

That's because you don't have an upper part of you chest or lower abs.

You've basically got a main pectoral muscle that covers a minor pectoral muscle and that main pectoral muscle has two nerves that innervate it...one medial and one lateral...how your chest 'looks' or 'appears' or however you want to describe it is a factor of genetics and how the actual muscle inserts and attaches. That's not to say that you can't develop it. Of course you can. It is just a misnomer to say 'upper part of your chest'.

Same with your 'abs' there's no upper abs and lower abs. Just your rectus abdominis...the reason you are finding it hard to develop your lower abs is because they are covered by that 1% bodyfat that you've still to lose. Lose that and you'll be golden...those lower abs will appear before your eyes like magic.

Will Heffernan

Khannie wrote: »

Nor did I say, or even imply that.

I think you probably should have posted the next line of my post.

I know that no one is saying this actively but 'pursuing' DOMS or actively 'seeking' DOMS is from a sports performance and physiological development point of view idiotic.

That sort of covers the whole bit about you not saying or implying that DOMS was awesome I think...especially the bit about that goes 'I know that no one is saying this'.

brianthebard

What sort of effect does foam rolling have on lessening doms, if at all?

Will Heffernan

brianthebard wrote: »

What sort of effect does foam rolling have on lessening doms, if at all?

I'll just pretend you are asking me this question.

1. Foam rolling while you are suffering from anything more than mild DOMS is how they get information out of prisoners...they make them do down hill running for hours then the next day have them foam roll till they give up all the information they have.

2. I'm a fan of foam rolling and always have been...from way back in the day when we used to use pool noodles. I definitely think that it improves tissue quality. I say that as I'm also a massage therapist and when people start foam rolling consistently...I can tell.

3. I wouldn't think it would necessarily have a prophylactic effect.

4. I would think that it would have a similar effect to massage with regard DOMS in that it may relieve the symptoms without actually having any effect on any of the physiological markers associated with DOMS.

5. If it hurts while you are doing it...then that isn't good either...so many people seem to take pride in the fact that they foam roll to the point of agony...this is as idiotic as seeking out DOMS in your training...pain is what nature gave us to try and lessen our stupidity not a signal that we have our stupid up to optimal levels.

Brian?

Will Heffernan wrote: »

That's because you don't have an upper part of you chest or lower abs.

You've basically got a main pectoral muscle that covers a minor pectoral muscle and that main pectoral muscle has two nerves that innervate it...one medial and one lateral...how your chest 'looks' or 'appears' or however you want to describe it is a factor of genetics and how the actual muscle inserts and attaches. That's not to say that you can't develop it. Of course you can. It is just a misnomer to say 'upper part of your chest'.

Same with your 'abs' there's no upper abs and lower abs. Just your rectus abdominis...the reason you are finding it hard to develop your lower abs is because they are covered by that 1% bodyfat that you've still to lose. Lose that and you'll be golden...those lower abs will appear before your eyes like magic.

Nicely put.

Spiritoftheseventies

1≠1 wrote: »

You know when you havent been to the gym in a few weeks and the next day your muscles are stiff?

Should that be the case if you go 2/3 times a week?

assume you do the routine stuff after exercising. stretching down, taking sauna etc.

metamorphosis

brianthebard wrote: »

What sort of effect does foam rolling have on lessening doms, if at all?

Im not sure if it would have an affect on DOMS ... well not for me anyway but i find the foam roller great for ITB exercises. I find i suffer with my itb after running/sprints despite correct footwear and find itb exercises on the foamroller to be spot on

brianthebard

Thanks for the replies.

1≠1

Will Heffernan wrote: »

You are luckier than most then.


Losing 1% should be the easy part.


That's because you don't have an upper part of you chest or lower abs.

You've basically got a main pectoral muscle that covers a minor pectoral muscle and that main pectoral muscle has two nerves that innervate it...one medial and one lateral...how your chest 'looks' or 'appears' or however you want to describe it is a factor of genetics and how the actual muscle inserts and attaches. That's not to say that you can't develop it. Of course you can. It is just a misnomer to say 'upper part of your chest'.

Same with your 'abs' there's no upper abs and lower abs. Just your rectus abdominis...the reason you are finding it hard to develop your lower abs is because they are covered by that 1% bodyfat that you've still to lose. Lose that and you'll be golden...those lower abs will appear before your eyes like magic.

Thanks.

bayviewclose wrote: »

assume you do the routine stuff after exercising. stretching down, taking sauna etc.

I do some stretching but not a hole lot.

g'em

Will, get off the cross, there's a village in Ballygoarseofnowhere crying out for the firewood.

So would you aim for your atheltes to avoid DOMS whenever possible? And if DOMS are evident following a training session would you see the need to modify the training?

I'm an olympic weightlifter and rarely get DOMS - from what I can tell our volume simply isn't high enough to produce it but is there's another reason why oly-style training (< 3 reps per set) tends not to produce DOMS? If I feel pain after training it's by and large inury from bad form/ technique.

Roper

--amadeus-- wrote: »

But DOMS is a fairly central part of most peoples fitness experience. And it gets linked (in a Pavlovian way) with good workouts. Speaking personally I know that I "enjoy" the DOMS I have after a long run because I know that it is an indicator of miles in the bank.

Seeing DOMS as an occasional by-product of a good workout rather than the end product in itself is a fairly healthy middle ground, no?

Well, maybe. I think one of the biggest problems you have when going into a new group of people who are used to every session hurting or inducing some pain the next day is that you have to tell them that y'know, every session doesn't have to hurt.

The problem with DOMS is, and I'm stating the blatantly obvious, is that they're sore. There's a clue in the name. And soreness makes you... well... sh1t the next session. If you take a guy who is going to do 3 sessions a week and divide it down, is he better off doing an awesome, super gruelling mega session on Monday, followed by a DOMS induced waste of oxygen on Wednesday, followed by a recovery session on Friday. Or is he better off doing 3 well managed sessions of varying intensity to produce the training effect? People forget that the training effect most people want is not soreness, it's better condition or fat loss or more strength. And while DOMS is an occassional by product of getting to those states, there is absolutely no link between DOMS and successful training.

The funny thing is that some people use it as a badge of honour whereas for most people who are serious about training it's just a nuisance that prevents another good workout.

brianthebard

Do Doms really effect your training in such a negative way? (genuinely interested). I've often had doms for a few days, but after going back to the gym and getting the blood flowing I usually feel better, whereas I could have been sore for 2-3 days before that. Especially recently, since I upped the volume, and changed exercises, negative chins left me with doms all week for instance, but I didn't particularly feel like it inhibited my training. Or was I just not realising the negative effects? Hope that makes sense.

Spiritoftheseventies

1≠1 wrote: »

Thanks.


I do some stretching but not a hole lot.

stretching very important and Sauna good for relaxing the muscles after.

Will Heffernan

g'em wrote: »

Will, get off the cross, there's a village in Ballygoarseofnowhere crying out for the firewood.

You keep saying that...but I still don't get it. I'm assuming that you are trying to say that I'm making myself out to be a martyr? Not sure what has given that impression.

So would you aim for your atheltes to avoid DOMS whenever possible?

Nope but I would be avoiding programming sessions that would illicit severe DOMS. It's a balancing act.

And if DOMS are evident following a training session would you see the need to modify the training?

Yes. I would obviously modify the session as well as going back and reassessing the session that created the problem. It doesn't really happen any more.

I'm an olympic weightlifter and rarely get DOMS - from what I can tell our volume simply isn't high enough to produce it but is there's another reason why oly-style training (< 3 reps per set) tends not to produce DOMS? If I feel pain after training it's by and large inury from bad form/ technique.

There are lots of reasons for this...not sure how technical people want me to get. There are lots of factors associated with DOMS and your personal situation and the frequency at which you experience DOMS is probably more of a result of you training status than Olympic lifting in itself.

Will Heffernan

brianthebard wrote: »

Do Doms really effect your training in such a negative way? (genuinely interested).

Yes is the short answer. If you want some papers I'll be happy to send them to you..just PM me. Ji-Guo Yu at Umea University did a great thesis paper 'Re-evaluation of Exercise Induced Muscle Soreness'.

I've often had doms for a few days, but after going back to the gym and getting the blood flowing I usually feel better, whereas I could have been sore for 2-3 days before that.

When you say DOMS...how severe are we talking...general soreness or can't lift the toothbrush to brush your teeth type soreness?

Especially recently, since I upped the volume, and changed exercises, negative chins left me with doms all week for instance, but I didn't particularly feel like it inhibited my training. Or was I just not realising the negative effects? Hope that makes sense.

I think I know what you mean...my opinion would be that the negative chins were a great idea...the volume however wasn't a great idea. What you are looking for is progressive overload...finding the optimal volume to illicit a training effect...you overloaded too much. I could think of plenty of ways you could structure this sort of training to get a much greater overall effect.

brianthebard

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Yes is the short answer. If you want some papers I'll be happy to send them to you..just PM me. Ji-Guo Yu at Umea University did a great thesis paper 'Re-evaluation of Exercise Induced Muscle Soreness'.

cool thanks.

When you say DOMS...how severe are we talking...general soreness or can't lift the toothbrush to brush your teeth type soreness?

Well right now it hurts a bit to stand up or go down stairs after front squats on saturday. I wouldn't say I've gotten to quite the level of not being able to lift a toothbrush.

I think I know what you mean...my opinion would be that the negative chins were a great idea...the volume however wasn't a great idea. What you are looking for is progressive overload...finding the optimal volume to illicit a training effect...you overloaded too much. I could think of plenty of ways you could structure this sort of training to get a much greater overall effect.

Well I think they were made twice as bad cause I went from never doing unassisted or negative chins to 13 reps, which isn't a lot but at the same time is a lot for me you know? I was thinking of hopefully doing 16 reps today (4 sets of 4). What ways would you structure the training so? I'm using the 5/3/1 template atm. Thanks again for the replies so far.

Brian?

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I think I know what you mean...my opinion would be that the negative chins were a great idea...the volume however wasn't a great idea. What you are looking for is progressive overload...finding the optimal volume to illicit a training effect...you overloaded too much. I could think of plenty of ways you could structure this sort of training to get a much greater overall effect.

Is adjusting volume the key to avoiding DOMS then? I know for a fact that if I do negatives or drop sets I get DOMS, however I only ever do a single set of each at the end of a workout. Its not crippling, just a general soreness which would limit my range of movement.

This is the only example I can think of right now: Say, if I did slow negatives on BB curls after a normal 3x10 of BB curls, straightening my arms is a little difficult the next day, should I only 2x10 first and then do the negatives to avoid DOMS? Does that even make sense?

Will Heffernan

brianthebard wrote: »

cool thanks.

No problem.

Well right now it hurts a bit to stand up or go down stairs after front squats on saturday.

How many sessions a week are you doing? Is your DOMS bleeding over into your next session I suppose is the important question?

I wouldn't say I've gotten to quite the level of not being able to lift a toothbrush.

I was thinking more along the lines of your chins...it would have to be an awesome squat session for your arms to be too sore to brush your teeth.

Well I think they were made twice as bad cause I went from never doing unassisted or negative chins to 13 reps, which isn't a lot but at the same time is a lot for me you know?

Too much. The negative chins are fine...you didn't need 13 is all.

I was thinking of hopefully doing 16 reps today (4 sets of 4). What ways would you structure the training so? I'm using the 5/3/1 template atm. Thanks again for the replies so far.

Look I am actually happy to help...and it wouldn't be the first time I had to clean up Jim's mess. He should be over later this year and you'll be able to abuse him in person. If you want to talk about or get some advice on how you should go about modifying or implementing that 5/3/1 template than I am happy to do that with you by PM or you can start a new thread and we can work through it and I'll give you my opinion for what its worth.

podge57

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Look I am actually happy to help...and it wouldn't be the first time I had to clean up Jim's mess. He should be over later this year and you'll be able to abuse him in person. If you want to talk about or get some advice on how you should go about modifying or implementing that 5/3/1 template than I am happy to do that with you by PM or you can start a new thread and we can work through it and I'll give you my opinion for what its worth.

Jim wendler coming to ireland??:eek:

that would be incredible...

g'em

Will Heffernan wrote: »

There are lots of reasons for this...not sure how technical people want me to get. There are lots of factors associated with DOMS and your personal situation and the frequency at which you experience DOMS is probably more of a result of you training status than Olympic lifting in itself.

As technical as you're willing to get to be honest, I'm genuinely interested to know more. As a powerlifter I frequently experienced DOMS, but much less so know as an olympic lifter. I had mild leg DOMS over the weekend after having my coach introduce 3 sets of 5 reps of 75% back squats and I've put it down to the increase in rep volume. But about a month ago I tested my 1RM deadlift and couldn't bend over for 3 days even though the max reps I did on any set was 3.

With olympic lifting though my max rep on any set is 3, I train at 75%+ four times a week and I virtually never experience DOMS - it's fatique that holds me back and not pain. I'm really curious to know why that is

Will Heffernan

briankeating wrote: »

Is adjusting volume the key to avoiding DOMS then?

Yes and it's also about how you structure your training. Just as an example I've got athletes that do maybe 10 sessions a week...as in they've the time for morning and evening sessions. I've athletes that compete in the same sport and compete at the same level that only have time for 3 sessions a week. Obviously the structure of their sessions and how they are implemented are very different. It's a matter of optimising their entire training plan to get the right end result. The athlete doing 10 sessions a week might achieve this through frequency of exposure while the 3 times a week athlete gets it via intensity.

I know for a fact that if I do negatives or drop sets I get DOMS, however I only ever do a single set of each at the end of a workout. Its not crippling, just a general soreness which would limit my range of movement.

That's fine. I see no problem with that and from the sounds of it. It sounds to me like you are getting just the right amount of stimulation. At a recreational level it doesn't really matter how the effect is achieved. For example...I could 'give' someone the exact same DOMS feeling...with a single set of 12 forced reps or with 5 sets of 20 reps...do you follow?

This is the only example I can think of right now: Say, if I did slow negatives on BB curls after a normal 3x10 of BB curls, straightening my arms is a little difficult the next day, should I only 2x10 first and then do the negatives to avoid DOMS? Does that even make sense?

I know what you are saying...and you are right in a way...but probably not in the way that you think...you are just manipulating the volume...you want a little DOMS if that makes sense...just not too much. If 2x10 and negatives does this then perfect...I would think that maybe 1x10 and the negatives would do the same thing though.

Will Heffernan

podge57 wrote: »

Jim wendler coming to ireland??:eek:

that would be incredible...

Yeah...I'm going to tell everyone he's Dave Tate...no one will know the difference.

Brian?

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Yes and it's also about how you structure your training. Just as an example I've got athletes that do maybe 10 sessions a week...as in they've the time for morning and evening sessions. I've athletes that compete in the same sport and compete at the same level that only have time for 3 sessions a week. Obviously the structure of their sessions and how they are implemented are very different. It's a matter of optimising their entire training plan to get the right end result. The athlete doing 10 sessions a week might achieve this through frequency of exposure while the 3 times a week athlete gets it via intensity.


That's fine. I see no problem with that and from the sounds of it. It sounds to me like you are getting just the right amount of stimulation. At a recreational level it doesn't really matter how the effect is achieved. For example...I could 'give' someone the exact same DOMS feeling...with a single set of 12 forced reps or with 5 sets of 20 reps...do you follow?


I know what you are saying...and you are right in a way...but probably not in the way that you think...you are just manipulating the volume...you want a little DOMS if that makes sense...just not too much. If 2x10 and negatives does this then perfect...I would think that maybe 1x10 and the negatives would do the same thing though.

I think I'm getting a little brain DOMS, but thanks for the answer. I am a recreational lifter by the way, all the competition was milked out of me years ago.

Could it be summed up with:

DOMS that limit my performance on my next workout=[bad]
DOMS that has no effect on my next workout=[good]
Zero DOMS=[bad]

If [bad]: review previous workout and adjust volume
If [good]: pat self on back and repeat.


Apparently I like to think in a quasi computer programming language.

Will Heffernan

g'em wrote: »

As technical as you're willing to get to be honest, I'm genuinely interested to know more.

This could get ugly really quickly...I mean people would be passing out and falling into comas the world over. I'm off to work now but when I get home tonight I'll write you up a 'crib notes' version regarding the hypotheses of DOMS.

As a powerlifter I frequently experienced DOMS, but much less so know as an olympic lifter. I had mild leg DOMS over the weekend after having my coach introduce 3 sets of 5 reps of 75% back squats and I've put it down to the increase in rep volume. But about a month ago I tested my 1RM deadlift and couldn't bend over for 3 days even though the max reps I did on any set was 3.

With olympic lifting though my max rep on any set is 3, I train at 75%+ four times a week and I virtually never experience DOMS - it's fatique that holds me back and not pain. I'm really curious to know why that is

I know exactly what you are talking about...let me write up my 'DOMS for Boardies' piece and we'll see if that answers your questions.

Will Heffernan

briankeating wrote: »

Could it be summed up with:

DOMS that limit my performance on my next workout=[bad]
DOMS that has no effect on my next workout=[good]
Zero DOMS=[bad]

If [bad]: review previous workout and adjust volume
If [good]: pat self on back and repeat.

It probably would have been a lot simpler if I just said that in the first place.