Alcohol Licensing in Ireland

The_Minister

http://conductunbecoming.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/alcohollicensing/

An interesting treatise on alcohol licensing in Ireland, which makes the case for deregulation of opening hours as well as other measures.
Probably one of the most intelligent treatments of alcohol in Ireland that I have read (although it helps that I agree with him:D).

jumpguy

Excellent topic, I especially like the point of lowering the drinking age, it basically gets how I feel right down to a tee. At the moment, it seems like drinking makes one rebellious and cool. If they lowered the age, it'd turn into no big feat and encourage responsible, social drinking.

Of course, our shower of knobs in the Dáil are gonna do nothing about it. They point blank REFUSE to learn from other country's lessons like Belgium's laws on drinking age for example. Had a friend who was over there recently, said most youth (under 18) had a completely different attitude to drinking. Instead of the usual as you get in Ireland "we're gonna get ****ing langered tonight lads, woohoo!" it was "d'you wanna go out for a drink tonight lads?"

This country drives me up the wall, so it does.

johnnyskeleton

jumpguy wrote: »

Excellent topic, I especially like the point of lowering the drinking age, it basically gets how I feel right down to a tee. At the moment, it seems like drinking makes one rebellious and cool. If they lowered the age, it'd turn into no big feat and encourage responsible, social drinking.

I don't know, it's not like once Irish people become 18 and it is no longer rebellious and cool to drink they suddenly become responsible drinkers. Responsible drinking is a cultural thing, not something that legislation can change overnight.

TheManWho

I can't see how lowering the drinking age will help anything. Those who consider it cool and rebellious, will still drink, but now just to get drunk. The change it will have is allow those socially responcible, who didn't want to drink until the legal age, to start drinking.

Very good article. Whoever the author is he certainly knows his stuff.

I, like him, think that the Government should deregulate opening hours for pubs, nightclubs and off-licences. He hit on a point that should be familiar to most people who go out in moderate sized towns: fights nearly always take place at/outside the local Supermacs/fast food restaurant. His reasoning behind why he thinks this is the case is a little simplified, but it certainly makes sense. If people weren't forced out of their local pub at 1/2 o'clock, I can see there being less frustration, and there certainly being less of a rush at fast food restaurants, both of which are factors in many fights I've seen.

His idea of creating one single licence to offer to all types of premises that wish to sell alcohol is brilliant idea. Although, I think he's being a bit idealistic in his view that they should be virtually free.

Alcohol prices inversely proportional to the amount of food the establishment offers? Genius. That is truely a brilliant idea - in theory. It would be very easy to implement in the vast majority of pubs and restaurants etc., but I can see it being extremely difficult to enfoce in nightclubs.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with lowering the legal age. I think that the connotations assocatiated with the Irish and drinking should be changed first - although that's next to impossible. In my opinion - and from what I've seen around me - many younger people drink in excess because of the way Ireland is perceived in other countries; they feel that it is somehow their duty to live up to the standards which other countries place on the Irish with respect to alcohol. It's pathetic, but it's the truth.

Interesting article though, I've read a few of his other posts and he raises some interesting points.

Earthhorse

It's an alright article. I don't think it as all that insightful.

He is right when he says high taxes have done nothing to discourage people from drinking but forgets that another good reason to have such taxes high is to help pay for the clean up involved in the problems associated with such high alcohol consumption.

However, it's in his suggested measures where I think he really starts to falter. Let's take a look at them, one by one:

1. Deregulate opening hours

Up until this point the article has been mostly factual, based on data and grounded in reason.

From the article:

At the moment many Irish people find themselves in a situation where they’re sitting down responsibly having a few pints, when the clock strikes 12:30 and the Gardaí show up to kick everyone out. They reluctantly down the rest of the pint sitting in front of them, exacerbating any drunkenness that already affected them. Already irritated from having been kicked out of the pub, they head to the local chipper to get a quarter-pounder. Of course, as everyone else has been kicked out at the same time, there’s a huge queue of irritated people having to wait a long time to get any food. The tension gets too much for just a couple of them, a fight starts, friends try to break it up, and soon enough there are 3 people heading to the A&E ward of the local hospital.

Come on, now, you don't really believe that, do you? It's a nice little story but the truth is Gards aren't a major presence in the closing of most pubs. Count the number of times you've been in a pub at closing time and count the number of times a Garda has stood above you as you finish your pint.

Also, one cannot make an argument that relies on talking about unfairly punishing reasonable drinkers when, by the mere act of having to rush a pint and queue in a crowded chipper these people are suddenly visiting A&E. A responsible drinker knows when closing time is and would pace his drinking accordingly or be mature enough to leave an unfinished drink behind.

This obviously isn’t a desirable situation, and research indicates that the UK’s 24-hour legislation has caused a moderate overall decrease in violent crime.

I'd like to see links to that research but failing that we have, what seems to me, a more realistic appraisal of the situation here. A moderate overall decrease in violent crime is what might occur. I'm not against staggered closing hours but I don't think it will have that much of an effect as people will just continue their nights out in the establishments that open later (as they do at the moment).

2. Liberalise on- and off-premises licenses

Can't say I object much to what he's proposing here though he ties it strongly into point 3 so I'll address it below.

3. Completely restructure excise duty

This is an interesting proposal but one which I don't think he has thought through to the implementation stages.

First off, he seems to be talking about the amount of food sold rather than the range avaiable in an establishment. This makes sense, but, how do you know how much food you're going to sell on any given night? You can't know, so how can you know what tax to charge and hence what to charge for a drink?

Perhaps his idea is to do this on some sort of seasonal basis i.e. the drink tax charged in Autumn is based on food sales in Summer. This can be easily circumvented by, say, a Night Club, opening up for lunch or dinner in the early half of the week.

But that isn't the only detail he skips over. He also doesn't tell us how is going to measure the amount of food sold. Is it by weight? Price? By person or party? So you could have one section of your establishment open for food and another purely for drink and have both avail of the low tax rate. Or, you're a Night Club owner, so you decide to, under this new regime, make entry to your establishment free but every patron is required to purchase a packet of Hula Hoops on entry at the very reasonable price of €5. Suddenly, I have all the food sales I need to justify the low tax rate.

These are illustrative examples of course but I'm sure you can think of similar ways to circumvent the proposal. And all this is ignoring the very first point he makes in the article, which is that higher tax rates have failed to reduce heavy drinking; people may very well be prepared to continue paying higher prices provided their night out is not interrupted by the unnecessary element of eating.

Again, I do think it's an interesting idea but incentive schemes are notorious for encouraging the very behaviour they seek to discourage and I think this one might fall into the same trap.

4. Reduce the minimum drinking age to 16 for beers and wines

Again, he seems to abandon talking about data here and starts relating tales of pneuomia near misses and teenagers who don't know what poitin looks like (both far fetched scenarios I'm sure you'll agree).

Is it any wonder that so many of these people grow up to be irresponsible with alcohol when the only starting points we leave available to them are irresponsible ones?

Yes. Yes, it is. Particularaly when you are making arguments about the majority of drinkers being responsible and, therefore, unfairly punished by heavy excise duty. He also tells us that there are many countries where you can "purchase beer and wine in pubs and bars from the age of 16" and that the incidence of binge drinking there is much lower but fails to prove any causal relation.

I do realise his suggestions are meant to be taken in their totality, as part of a raft of changes that will have a combined effect greater than any could on its own, but I also think that when you analyse them this won't amount to a hill of beans.

When I have more time I might write up my own thoughts on how the problem might better be addressed.

Frankiestylee

I think the best thing about this article is the focus on the long term. Most of our drink problems are cultural and it takes quite a long time to change a culture.

I agree in part with the liberal licensing laws, though I'm not sure about the nearly free price tag or the one-for-all approach. I think different licenses help keep some diversity in an area, rather than a possible all-night strip of clubs, and the price tag on a license means purchasing one is hopefully a sign of serious intent.
I'd love if we had cafe-bars similar to the continent, it could really revolutionise the whole social landscape of the city.

Excise duty is a tricky one because of the amount of money it makes for the government. It should definitly be lower, but it's never going to go as low as other countries without either higher taxes or something giving way. I reckon the drink/food option could work in some areas, but to implement it across the board would be painful. There are some tiny little pubs about the place that couldn't squeeze a toaster in nevermind a cooker etc.

I disagree with the lowering of the age limit. Maybe in a few years when there has been a change with adults then yeah, fair enough, but to do it sooner would result in disaster. A better idea would be for investment into non-alcohol related youth venues, a bit like the youth clubs of old, where teenagers can learn to have a good time without getting plastered. I know what I'd choose if I had the choice between sitting somewhere comfy with a coke or wet in a field with my nagon.
Once the culture and role-models are there, fine, bring down the beer & wine age.

JC 2K3

I thought it was fairly crap.

I agree with deregulating opening hours because I think it'll either make the situation better or it'll stay the same, and I hate the nanny state. But I don't think it'd have a huge impact, and wouldn't propose it as a key solution to the alcohol problem.

I have similar feelings towards their liberalising licensing laws proposal.

There are hints of an anti publican rant in there, implying that they're heavily influential and that new laws are in their favour, which is obviously completely inaccurate. Pubs aren't exactly doing a roaring trade these days.

They have a short sighted view that the only form of acceptable drinking is drinking with food. For a start, I think that's silly. Secondly, people aren't just going to start buying food with alcohol. Who wants to have a meal at 12 or 1 am? And a meal lasts about 30 minutes - people go out drinking for up to 5 or 6 hours. Why would having a meal at the start/middle of the night stop people drinking so much? Especially if the drink is cheap because the place serves food.

Reducing the drinking age to 16 I think is a good idea. If it doesn't stop teenage binge drinking, at least you're no longer criminalising what's not going to stop happening, and, all things considered, doesn't have a hugely negative impact on its own (as opposed to the culture itself).

markok84

He hasn't really addressed the fact that Ireland has a well established drinking culture that is celebrated by people almost to the point where they enjoy keeping the stereotype alive with a -"shur everyone loves us we're great craic"- mentality. I think changing this mindset is gonna prove more difficult and wont be solved by adopting a more 'continental' approach.

duckysauce

jumpguy wrote: »

Excellent topic, I especially like the point of lowering the drinking age, it basically gets how I feel right down to a tee. At the moment, it seems like drinking makes one rebellious and cool. If they lowered the age, it'd turn into no big feat and encourage responsible, social drinking.

Of course, our shower of knobs in the Dáil are gonna do nothing about it. They point blank REFUSE to learn from other country's lessons like Belgium's laws on drinking age for example. Had a friend who was over there recently, said most youth (under 18) had a completely different attitude to drinking. Instead of the usual as you get in Ireland "we're gonna get ****ing langered tonight lads, woohoo!" it was "d'you wanna go out for a drink tonight lads?"

This country drives me up the wall, so it does.

!
yep the bouys there just get whacked on great weed ! so whats the diff , maybe weed makes you less agro if you dont drink ?????????

johnnyskeleton

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

His idea of creating one single licence to offer to all types of premises that wish to sell alcohol is brilliant idea. Although, I think he's being a bit idealistic in his view that they should be virtually free.

In Austria its not illegal to drink beer on the street and this means that if a pub wants to get your business, they have to provide something of value. This is a much better system than the Irish system, whereby if you want to get out of the house and have a drink you are corralled into a few limited places who can charge you top dollar for the displeasure.

While I don't think licences should be completely free, I think they should be cheap and widely available, that way small speakeasy type places can open up and sell pints for €2 and still make a profit.

Ashlinggnilsia

While i was younger say 13 up if i wanted a drink at home...no big deal im 21 and i dont drink. I know this doesnt mean everyone but anyone i know who was allowed a drink at home werent gettin in a heap out in a field because we thought we were deadly i do agree with the point that it being illegal does contribute!! Like in spain you can drink at 16 and you dont see them running around the streets langers cos its no big deal they can all do it if the want, same in italy i think, they all drink wine with meals no big deal!!