Alright lads, Im worried of a runaway with my TDI

GTE

As some may know I just got a Golf TDI and I picked it up this morning and there is a problem.



So, along the motorway the car lost some power. When it lost power it was accompanied by a real, tractor engine sound. Joking aside the engine would sound fine but when the car lost power went it would sound as if the engine was under more pressure to keep the car going which makes perfect sense to me if it was a turbo problem.

So, I got the car home and if you look at the picture and at the top left you will see a circular silver "thing", then the large black pipe that runs along the left side of the engine. We saw that this pipe had come away from a socket that it slotted into deep inside the engine bay to the very left, under the head lamp.

Oil leaked from that pipe and somehow was sprayed all over the engine bay.
My neighbor said that a seal in the turbo broke and was leaking oil which was going down this pipe which he said was an air intake for the turbo.

He said that as it leaked down the pipe, it got to the point where it was meant to slot in to another pipe but because it wasnt slotted in the air rushing through the socket blew the oil across the engine bay, into the rad fan and that made it go everywhere.

So, this is a questions strictly to the people who know.
If what my neighbor said was true and that the pipe I have pointed out is an air intake for the turbo, would that mean the oil is leaking at the air intake which can go into the turbo which can result in a runaway, uncontrolable combustion?

Its going to get fixed at an Audi, VW, M Benz, BMW garage in Portarlington so it will be fixed, and the guy I got the car off will be getting the bill, however I am worried that there is serious potential of a runaway as the car is brought to the garage. Its a +30min journey.


I dont know whats connected to what or what thing does what with the yoke connected to the yokemebobber so yeah
Just if there is a chance it could overrev I would like to know.

GTE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXuz7d3hkzo

This video seems to be relevant.

Thanks all

anon11

A small amount is normal enough on these, just keep an eye on your oil level and see is it using much:) you notice alot of smoke on boost if your turbo was on its way out:)

GTE

Thanks for that.

So is the air flowing from the bottom of the pic up towards the silver thingy, is it an EGR?

If its a leak in that silver thing, and oil is leaking down that pipe, opposite to the air flow, if that airflow (ie. reconnecting the pipe) was to return would the oil get blown into the cylinder causing over reving?

What should I do before its driven to the garage?
Any checks or precautions?

If all the problem is that I have no turbo power and Ill just be down on power then its ok.
Just, I have seen The Garage on discovery and one day and I think oil in the turbo caused a big over-rev on some turbo diesel car.

I have just seen too much and know too little lol
Enough TV for me

voxpop

The silver "UFO" thingy is the EGR. They are know to leak small amounts of oil out of them, epically if old. Mine does the same, though I think if the diaphragm in the EGR is worn or damaged somehow, it sucks more oil vapour than normal through the air system and you will see it weeping from the hole in the front of the EGR.

If you think there is too much oil, the standard solution is to replace the EGR and take it from there. Another solution I heard was to replace your oil filler cap, which is alot cheaper but usually doesnt sort the problem.


The loss in power and tractor noise sounds like it might be running on 3 cylinders

GTE

voxpop wrote: »

The silver "UFO" thingy is the EGR. They are know to leak small amounts of oil out of them, epically if old. Mine does the same, though I think if the diaphragm in the EGR is worn or damaged somehow, it sucks more oil vapour than normal through the air system and you will see it weeping from the hole in the front of the EGR.

If you think there is too much oil, the standard solution is to replace the EGR and take it from there. Another solution I heard was to replace your oil filler cap, which is alot cheaper but usually doesnt sort the problem.


The loss in power and tractor noise sounds like it might be running on 3 cylinders

Thanks for that.

Would you think that the fact the pipe is disconnected from a receiving socket underneath the front left head lamp could have some connection with the power loss? Basically its like cutting that pipe from the left in half and throwing away one bit of it. Its not connected to anything and we couldnt re connect it ourselves.

EDIT:
The loss of power is intermittent btw. And when driving the revs may go up slightly and down again, as if something was kicking in and kicking out again, possibly cylinder like you said.

voxpop

If you have a split pipe, then there will be all sorts of problems.

The MAF (little sensor after your air box) tells the cars computer how much air is coming into the engine, the computer can then put in the right amount of fuel,etc. If you have a split after the MAF then the air is escaping and it will cause issues as the ECU thinks there is much more air in the system.

The air system is also pressurised, the pressure rises as the turbo spools. If pressure can be built up (because of a leak in the air system) you will have no power.

Has the pipe come off or split fully ?

GTE

voxpop wrote: »

If you have a split pipe, then there will be all sorts of problems.

The MAF (little sensor after your air box) tells the cars computer how much air is coming into the engine, the computer can then put in the right amount of fuel,etc. If you have a split after the MAF then the air is escaping and it will cause issues as the ECU thinks there is much more air in the system.

The air system is also pressurised, the pressure rises as the turbo spools. If pressure can be built up (because of a leak in the air system) you will have no power.

Has the pipe come off or split fully ?

Sorry, I was unclear in what I said, my bad. The pipe is not split open.

The pipe, in the bowels of the car is meant to slot into another pipe. We tried reconnecting it but had no luck.

The pipe is totally disconnected from where its meant to go. Which is why I said its as if you cut it in half.


EDIT:
The guy from next door who had an idea of what he was talking about mentioned a little plug in sensor on the right of the engine which is pictured just to the left of the big black box. He said they can go but to me he said it as an unrelated problem. Just something to look out for.

voxpop

If the pipe is completely disconnected then you have a problem. VW use small metal clips to hold the pipes together. If the clip is still working you should be able to use a pair of pliers to pull the clip up from the pipe (so there is a gap). Reconnect the two pipes and push the clip back down.

If the clip is broken completely then you need to replace the section of pipe or DIY the pipe back on.


The little plug on the top right is the MAF. It can indeed go, giving you a loss of power, poor mpg, and rough idling. It measures the air coming into the engine. In your case the air is escaping after the MAF.

GTE

voxpop wrote: »

If the pipe is completely disconnected then you have a problem. VW use small metal clips to hold the pipes together. If the clip is still working you should be able to use a pair of pliers to pull the clip up from the pipe (so there is a gap). Reconnect the two pipes and push the clip back down.

If the clip is broken completely then you need to replace the section of pipe or DIY the pipe back on.

The clip is there, we just couldnt reconnect it. It was a very fiddly job given how far into the engine bay it was, also the guy next door suspected the pipe would just blow off again.

But if the clip is in good order that shouldnt happen? Possibly the mechanic who worked on it didnt reconnect the pipe properly?
Should I try and get the pipe back on again before its driven? What happens if I cant do this and we drive it to the garage?
There is enough oil coming out to be blown across the engine bay, into the radiator fan and leave a bit of mess on the underside of the bonnet just over the fan, as well as leaving a few small drips of oil under where it is parked. Not a constant leak mind you.

There is no problem reconnecting the pipe if there is an oil leak?

voxpop

Yeah they can be fiddly - not a great design decision by VW. If its one of the rubbery hoses (clip like just after the MAF) you can just replace it with a jublee clip . If its a hard plastic pipe, then the clips are slightly different ( i think there is one just after the EGR) - you need to pop them up, insert the pipe and then snap them back down.

You should be able to put the pipe back on yourself, with a bit of persistence. Driving with the pipe off - I guess the car will be in limp mode, ie no power. The only way I can see it damaging the engine is that the air getting in at the broken section is not filtered, which isnt good.

On the oil side of things - There would be some oil in those pipes and because the pipes are not connected, the oil (as well as air) is been blow out at the break under a bit of pressure. Thats why its getting all over the place.

btw :The oil has to get back into the engine for run-away.

GTE

voxpop wrote: »

Yeah they can be fiddly - not a great design decision by VW. If its one of the rubbery hoses (clip like just after the MAF) you can just replace it with a jublee clip . If its a hard plastic pipe, then the clips are slightly different ( i think there is one just after the EGR) - you need to pop them up, insert the pipe and then snap them back down.

You should be able to put the pipe back on yourself, with a bit of persistence. Driving with the pipe off - I guess the car will be in limp mode, ie no power. The only way I can see it damaging the engine is that the air getting in at the broken section is not filtered, which isnt good.

On the oil side of things - There would be some oil in those pipes and because the pipes are not connected, the oil (as well as air) is been blow out at the break under a bit of pressure. Thats why its getting all over the place.

btw :The oil has to get back into the engine for run-away.

Ahh, so where ever that pipe on the left of the engine leads it isnt even into the engine or somewhere where excess oil can cause a feck up?

voxpop

bbk wrote: »

Ahh, so where ever that pipe on the left of the engine leads it isnt even into the engine or somewhere where excess oil can cause a feck up?

Its going to the intercooler (if we are on the same page, driver side, down below the headlamps ?).


Its normal to have some oil in the air pipes.

Air Intake System, EGR, PCV - Air is drawn through a conventional air filter and into the so-called MAF, or mass-air-flow meter. A hot wire (older models) or hot film (later models) is contained inside this sensor and is maintained at a constant temperature. The electrical current which is required to maintain this temperature is an indication of how much airflow is passing over the sensing element. After the MAF, a hose connection comes from the valve cover where crankcase fumes are drawn into the intake air. From there, the intake air is drawn into the compressor of the turbocharger (see below) where it is compressed, but the compression process also increases the temperature of the air. The hot compressed air passes through a small heat exchanger known as the intercooler. When heat is removed, the density of the air increases, thus increasing the amount (by mass) of air which is drawn into theengine. The objective is to make the air going into the engine cylinders as dense as possible (pressurized and cooled) to allow maximum power output. From the intercooler, the pressurized and cooled air goes to the intake manifold where it is mixed with a proportion of exhaust from the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) system for emission control purposes. (The EGR system is connected on the high-pressure side of both the exhaust and intake systems.) This mixture then goes into the engine cylinders. Unlike with a gasoline engine, there is no throttle in a diesel engine. Power output is governed using the fuel supply only. The lean air/fuel mixture is one of the reasons that the diesel engine is so efficient, and the lack of intake restriction due to absence of a throttle reduces pumping losses, and that is another reason that a diesel engine is more efficient when running under part load. The A4 engines have an added intake manifold flap to reduce shudder and compression pressures on diesel shutdown. Previous A3 TDI's did not have this feature.

from tdiclub.com

GTE

voxpop wrote: »

Its going to the intercooler (if we are on the same page, driver side, down below the headlamps ?).


Its normal to have some oil in the air pipes.



from tdiclub.com

Yeah, drivers side below the headlamps. (pictured on the left in post 1)

Thanks grand so. If there was more then the ususal amount I should still be fine?

There isnt a chance that the pipe blew off for a reason is there?

Whatever happened, its worth trying to get the thing back on so dirty air or even water from a badly placed puddle gets into the pipe? I have a feeling the latter is less likely to happen though.

voxpop

If there was more then the ususal amount I should still be fine?

If there is a decent amount of oil, you have a problem somewhere. Ive heard it can be caused by a dodgy seal on the oil filler cap to a issue with the EGR. Alot of ppl just ignore it. Replacing the EGR is something that has work for some ppl.
The oil collects in the intercooler - its the lowest point of the system - is recommended to clean out the intlet manifold,egr,pipes and intercooler if the engine has done a decent amount of mileage. They generally get coked up from the mixture of oil vapour and exhaust gasses.

e.g.

There isnt a chance that the pipe blew off for a reason is there?

Once the car is not remapped, the most likely reason it blew off is because of a dodgy clip or someone didnt put it back on correctly. Usually they would leak oil rather than getting blown off.

its worth trying to get the thing back

Defiantly give it a go. There is a bit of a nack to getting them on but other than that it pretty straight forward.

GTE

voxpop wrote: »

If there is a decent amount of oil, you have a problem somewhere. Ive heard it can be caused by a dodgy seal on the oil filler cap to a issue with the EGR. Alot of ppl just ignore it. Replacing the EGR is something that has work for some ppl.
The oil collects in the intercooler - its the lowest point of the system - is recommended to clean out the intlet manifold,egr,pipes and intercooler if the engine has done a decent amount of mileage. They generally get coked up from the mixture of oil vapour and exhaust gasses.

e.g.



Once the car is not remapped, the most likely reason it blew off is because of a dodgy clip or someone didnt put it back on correctly. Usually they would leak oil rather than getting blown off.



Defiantly give it a go. There is a bit of a nack to getting them on but other than that it pretty straight forward.

My god, is that pic from the EGR? :O
In 150,000 miles of motoring that must have been checked and most likely missed in the service that the car allegedly got before the keys/money were handed over.

Interesting stuff.
Its going in tomorrow for 10 o clock so I will have a bash and fixing it if its really worth doing for a 30 min trip.

voxpop

bbk wrote: »

My god, is that pic from the EGR? :O
In 150,000 miles of motoring that must have been checked and most likely missed in the service that the car allegedly got before the keys/money were handed over.

That a pretty bad one - mine wasnt nearly that bad when i did it. Im not sure its something that is checked in a regular service. Its pretty easy to pop of the pipe after the EGR and have a look.

bbk wrote: »

Its going in tomorrow for 10 o clock so I will have a bash and fixing it if its really worth doing for a 30 min trip.

If it was my car - id fix it before driving anywhere - but its up to yourself.

GTE

voxpop wrote: »

That a pretty bad one - mine wasnt nearly that bad when i did it. Im not sure its something that is checked in a regular service. Its pretty easy to pop of the pipe after the EGR and have a look.



If it was my car - id fix it before driving anywhere - but its up to yourself.

Well, Im the more cautious between myself and my dad. He is content with driving it up but I am not.

He will be driving since I dont have my learners permit yet.
Ill have a chat about what I read here.

Just to give my argument some kick, what kind of background do you have in this type of thing?

voxpop

bbk wrote: »

what kind of background do you have in this type of thing?

LOL - im a bloke on the internet. If you dont believe me, do some research. There are plenty of vag and tdi sites out there.:rolleyes:

GTE

voxpop wrote: »

LOL - im a bloke on the internet. If you dont believe me, do some research. There are plenty of vag and tdi sites out there.:rolleyes:

Oh dont you worry, I know about your internetty forum types.:p
It is just out of curiousity.

Low post count means nothing about internet wisdom lol

biomech

the whole runaway theory is plausible but not in your case. much larger supply of oil needed. if it does start to self throttle please stick her in the highest gear you got and hang on tight.... post some after pictures too when the smoke blows away.

GTE

biomech wrote: »

the whole runaway theory is plausible but not in your case. much larger supply of oil needed. if it does start to self throttle please stick her in the highest gear you got and hang on tight.... post some after pictures too when the smoke blows away.

lol
Will do
Well Im gonna try and get the pipe back on before i set off.
With the rain we have now Im afraid of a large puddle lol

GTE

I couldnt get the pipe back on between the showers but it limped to the garage. It only had a problem when under load. Power coming and going consistently.

Its getting a bumper to bumper service as we speak.
Thanks for all the help peeps.
bbk

GTE

Well the wagon is back from the service.

All that was causing the problem was that the pipe had come out. It wasnt put back on properly after its inital service.
So thats been fixed and a new clip put in and the engine and everything has been checked to make sure that while the pipe was off there was no damage.
The drive back was perfect, no worries.
The engine bay was cleaned up of oil, no leaks were found.

The anti roll bar links and bushes are worn, the parts are ordered and just a small problem with the drivers side window, another part ordeded there.

It was just a ruddy pipe lol