Becoming a Barrister?

legal eagle 1

Hey guys,
Just looking for some opinions really, I've been doing court work experience for the last few weeks and have been absolutely fascinated by the barristers. Now i've always wanted to be a solicitor , still do have my FE1's and everything got but, still need training contract so I'm trying to examine all my possible options.
So I have about 20 questions hehe How hard is it to become trained as a barrister?how hard are the entrance exams to Kings Inn? Is it as hard to get a master to devil with as it is to find a training contract??
(p.s please dont reply and say to change career altogether away from law, it aint going happen im afraid im in it now for the long haul)

Jo King

Most people who sit the entrance exams to the Kings Inns get in. Some leave however after the first one or two of the entrance exams and do not succeed. On that basis the exams are easy but one should not be complacent.
Most people who do the BL course pass out with the degree.
A pupil master is guaranteed by the Bar Council, on getting the degree so becoming a qualified barrister is not partiucularly difficult academically.

Sangre

Becoming a barrister and getting a master are fairly straight forward. Almost certinaly one of the easiest profession to become.

The challenge is surviving in a competitive world and supporting yourself with little or no income.

legal eagle 1

Am i right in thinkin that your master doesnt pay you when you are devilling? and how exactly do you go about getting work, you dont work for a company do you? Haha these probably sound like stupid questions but i've never really given this profession a whole lot of thought!

Dante09

well, leagle eagle, a good mate of mine will be called to the bar in october and i have been informed as follows:
1) the entrance exams were easy but from next sitting onwards, the pass mark will be raised from 40% to 50%. Still manageable, considering you've passed your FEs
2) the course itself is easy enough, however roughly 1/3rd of this years class have failed at least one subject and thus cannot be called to the bar until october as they have to repeat.
3) its very easy to get a master. my mate has two-one is a defense counsel and the other is a prosecutor.
4) they are not obliged to pay you but some do.
5) barristers dont work for firms, the are sole traders.
6) kings inns' is full of arrogant prats :eek:

legal eagle 1

6) kings inns' is full of arrogant prats

Maybe legal eagle wants to become an arrogant prat!! I'd fit in well with the majority of solicitors than!
Thanks for the info.......lot to think about

Dante09

i really dont think leagle eagle wants to become an arrogant prat as that would make him/her a typical "law girl/boy".

legal eagle 1

Maybe legal eagle is changing her ways
Ok so what would the general view be out of curiousity stick with the solicitor route or examine the barrister route further?? Anyone a barrister in here?!

nuac

suggest wider range of options as a barrister - lecturing, writing research, other opportunities during the long holidays.

Involvement in a solicitors practice with all current regulatory requirements took up all the time and energy available

dermot_sheehan

I'm a barrister,

Tricky bit is not getting into the profession but survivng the first few years. No one explains how you get work, many people entering the library have contacts either through family or employment and this helps them greatly in their first few years in practice.

I had none so the bit of work I do is from solicitors that I either met devilling or saw me in court and decided to send me some.

If anyone wanted to become a barrister I'd warn them you'll be living with little or no income for many years. Even cases you win you are very slow to get paid and cashflow is a nightmare. I'd recommend working 2 to 3 years in an insurance company as a claims handler first if you wanted to reduce the number of years spent idle at the bar.

Also I can't possibly comment on what this years cohort at the inns are like but the profession does have a knack of attracting those who like the sound of their own voice.

legal eagle 1

Thank u soo much 4 reply, its lovely to hear from person in the profession. Do u mind me asking why you choose to become a barrister as opposed to a solicitor???? Also are you still working? has your income become more consistent and beter and would you recommend it as a career?

Tom Young

I am also a Barrister, and frankly don't agree with the sentiment expressed above in relation to the King's Inns.

Like every institution, course or collective, it only takes a few bad apples to ruin the crop.

Edit: In reply to legal eagle.

My reason for going down the BL route was the training aspects and then the work. Ultimately there are vast differences in the training and the work that needs to be properly assessed before undertaking the Law Society or indeed the King's Inns route.

I'd suggest speaking to both well established Barristers - Long practicing junior or Senior Counsel and a Solicitor - Trainee and long practicing. Both will be able to express to you the difficulties and indeed the processes which they went through to get to where they are.

I'm not convinced the BL degree trains you properly for practice, possibly as it can't do so to a 100% level, but that's why junior or entering Barristers devil with a master. The course goes fairly far, but does not get into court practicalities too much.

Deviling is designed so all new entrants to learn the ropes, etiquette and processes which become second nature after a short period. This covers: Court applications, the dreadful case and motion lists (which can be really daunting), drafting, court rules, unwritten rules (e.g., colleagues and professional courtesy), client management, practice management and also ethics.

Clever and hard working people can survive in this highly competitive environment. When I say clever I don't necessarily mean academically clever, but practical and with work smarts. What Gabhain says above is all very true and it is something to be seriously evaluated before taking either route.

Benevolent parents can only be so for so long!

legal eagle 1

To be truthful, i've been to college already with a lot of arrogant people who liked the sound of their own voice, so that aspect doesnt really bother me, as long as i dont become one of those type people i'll be happy
Tom Young do you enjoy your job? is it tough going as regards getting work, getting consistent income?

Tom Young

It's the best job going - but it has downsides. Many of which are mentioned above.

I replied in slightly more detail above.

Re. Income, there is little or no sustainable income in the first few years. But that can be remedied by lecturing, teaching, writing etc. I think the Bar Council modified rules so that part-time work could be undertaken, but there is a caveat on that. I believe it is something like 'suitable' part time work. This was changed to address concerns over poverty.

legal eagle 1

Thank you Tom for your replies, i really appreciate it. Ya I'm going try and talk to some barristers and see can I get a better insight into the job/work/hardship etc. Its giving me a lot to think about thank you!

maidhc

legal eagle 1 wrote: »

Thank you Tom for your replies, i really appreciate it. Ya I'm going try and talk to some barristers and see can I get a better insight into the job/work/hardship etc. Its giving me a lot to think about thank you!

I'm a solicitor, and while it has little to commend it at the moment, I think being a barrister must be worse. I'm almost 27, qualified since last december and one of the few of my class with a job, even though the money is rubbish.

From those who went to college with me and became barristers perhaps one has some hope of actually surviving in the profession.

Into the future I can't see things improving. While there will always be a market for barristers who specialise in particular niche areas, I think more and more solicitors are becoming less reliant on barristers as they tend to be quite well educated themselves after passing the FE exams and in many cases having LLMs and other qualifications.

Remmy

Hi I have been reading this thread with great interest.I too am interested in a career in this field.I know one solicitor through a friend and will try and sit down to talk to him in the next few weeks.

Do Barristers get paid on a case by case basis?

macy9

maidhc wrote: »

Into the future I can't see things improving. While there will always be a market for barristers who specialise in particular niche areas,

Just wondering what niche areas are particularly sought after these days by firms as Im trying to get myself into one!

Tom Young

Remmy wrote: »

Do Barristers get paid on a case by case basis?

Anecdotally many aren't getting paid at all at the moment, due to the state of the market.

They get paid brief fees, generally on a case after it has run, but would be entitled to fees along the way. It does really depend on the focus of the practice e.g., crime or civil law. Fundamentally, work may not be paid for until after the case.

Evaluate any decision re. Bar very carefully. It's a highly competitive environment.

Tom

Remmy

Thanks for the reply!Im nowhere knowledgeable enough yet in how the two career paths differ.

In a sense would I be correct in saying that the career of a Barrister is higher risk but a better payoff in the long-run compared to the solcitor?I know nothing is secure in this climate.

also aside from wiki is there any online libraries where I could learn more about law.Or if there is any widely known texts that could be found in a library?

maidhc

macy9 wrote: »

Just wondering what niche areas are particularly sought after these days by firms as Im trying to get myself into one!

There are none that I know of. I spend most of my time "fixing" old files, i.e. dusting off old litigation and conveyacing files that went off the rails.

Sangre

macy9 wrote: »

Just wondering what niche areas are particularly sought after these days by firms as Im trying to get myself into one!

Insolvency, employment, banking& finance, litigation. Of course, firms are seeking lawyers with PQE in these areas, not trainees. Most firms don't care if you're specialised. Specialisation means nothing to them without practical experience.

IT Loser

Tom Young wrote: »

Anecdotally many aren't getting paid at all at the moment, due to the state of the market.

They get paid brief fees, generally on a case after it has run, but would be entitled to fees along the way. It does really depend on the focus of the practice e.g., crime or civil law. Fundamentally, work may not be paid for until after the case.

Evaluate any decision re. Bar very carefully. It's a highly competitive environment.

Tom

I am 30 years of age. Hard as you like, not much into the "social scene" {the drinking and the high living aspect anyways} will argue {as you have seen:p} until the justice slaps 30 day stint for contempt on me. Have a law degree. Can surive on enough to pay my rent. Will sit on the door of the court and ask young lads do they need rep. I am very well versed in Labour law, Criminal law, Family Law, Human Rights law.

Should I have a crack at the Bar, or the Law Soc??

When you say "competitive".....I understand what you are saying, as I have heard it first hand from Barrister pals, but just how competitive....would you be dying for a bite to eat, or just not have the money for that new car??

IT Loser

Sangre wrote: »

Insolvency, employment, banking& finance, litigation. Of course, firms are seeking lawyers with PQE in these areas, not trainees. Most firms don't care if you're specialised. Specialisation means nothing to them without practical experience.

How do you get practical experience as a young barrister??

fliptzer

I’ve just finished the first year diploma in the Kings and found it more enjoyable then I thought, yes it is hard work and we’ve been told the full time degree course is even tougher and it can’t teach you everything. Just finished all the criminal law etc I’m ever going to learn and it’s pretty daunting that there’s so much left but guess they can’t hodl your hand all the way. Lol.
Looking forward to the degree but have been warned that there is very little work and don’t expect to get a decent standard of living for about 5 years, don’t know how true that is but the new graduates are expecting it to be tough.

IT Loser

fliptzer wrote: »

I’ve just finished the first year diploma in the Kings and found it more enjoyable then I thought, yes it is hard work and we’ve been told the full time degree course is even tougher and it can’t teach you everything. Just finished all the criminal law etc I’m ever going to learn and it’s pretty daunting that there’s so much left but guess they can’t hodl your hand all the way. Lol.
Looking forward to the degree but have been warned that there is very little work and don’t expect to get a decent standard of living for about 5 years, don’t know how true that is but the new graduates are expecting it to be tough.

You see, can someone tell me what constitutes a "decent standard of living"???

Is it a house on Carysfort Avenue? Or is it just barely avoiding the workhouse??

Do you have to scrabble for work like men shaping on the waterfront, or is it a bit more dignified.??

How insular is the profession? Is it one of these "everyone knows everyone" scenarios?

maidhc

IT Loser wrote: »

You see, can someone tell me what constitutes a "decent standard of living"???

Earning more than the dole.

Seriously.

legal eagle 1

IT Loser I think your putting too much focus on how much you are going earn as a Barrister and not enough focus on whether in fact you really want to become one!

IT Loser

maidhc wrote: »

Earning more than the dole.

Seriously.

Sure. That would be a start mind you.

Tell you the truth- I dont give a toss about the money anymore.

I just like knowing the rules and having a clean suit, being in shape and being able, every day, to go about some sort of worthwhile endeavour.

The money can wait.

IT Loser

legal eagle 1 wrote: »

IT Loser I think your putting too much focus on how much you are going earn as a Barrister and not enough focus on whether in fact you really want to become one!

Not at all.

I just dont want to be left penniless.

€400 a week, can I clear that much at least?

legal eagle 1

Apologises but, every post from you seems to be regarding money and wages!
I think the point most people are making is that for most weeks you may not see a penny and than for others you may see a lot of your outstanding bills paid, personally i think its a profession where you need good budgetary skills!Its a self employed job after all

IT Loser

legal eagle 1 wrote: »

Apologises but, every post from you seems to be regarding money and wages!
I think the point most people are making is that for most weeks you may not see a penny and than for others you may see a lot of your outstanding bills paid, personally i think its a profession where you need good budgetary skills!Its a self employed job after all

The legal profession is so unwilling to talk about money. Sometimes you just have to ask them straight up. Sorry if I sounded money-grubbing, I'm not.

Jo King

IT Loser wrote: »

Will sit on the door of the court and ask young lads do they need rep. I am very well versed in Labour law, Criminal law, Family Law, Human Rights law.

Should I have a crack at the Bar, or the Law Soc??

Are you for real? Touting is against the rules of both branches of the profession, and doing it at the door of a court is going to get you into professional trouble very quickly.
Young lads rarely have any money for fees and when they do, they will have got a solicitor before they see the door of the court.

I'd find a different class of work if I was you.

IT Loser

Jo King wrote: »

Are you for real? Touting is against the rules of both branches of the profession, and doing it at the door of a court is going to get you into professional trouble very quickly.
Young lads rarely have any money for fees and when they do, they will have got a solicitor before they see the door of the court.

I'd find a different class of work if I was you.

No chance fella.:cool: Spent too long in the legal academic end of things to opt out now. And I'll take my chances with the "touting". I didnt mean it literally. What I am saying is that I will make myself available. As for young lads not having money for fees, I tried to explain that in a 7 page thread. Nobody was having it.:cool::)

Jo King

IT Loser wrote: »

No chance fella.:cool: Spent too long in the legal academic end of things to opt out now.)

When you are in a hole the thing to do is stop digging. Better to give up now before you waste any more time and money.

MDS2009

IT Loser, as a barrister you have to devil for your first year after Kings Inns and most people devil for a second year after that.

As a barrister you are self-employed so there is no regular weekly or monthly income as such. In the current climate solicitors are finding it difficult to get paid by clients and as a result many barristers are not getting paid.

It takes at least 5 years to get established, ie build up contacts within the law library and with solicitors, to build a reputation for yourself.

Barristers tend to be very secretive and competitive about how much they earn and how busy they are. I know a number of people who have left the profession and gone in-house as consultants/ legal advisors as it was too tough and there wasn't enough to earn an OK living after a number of years.

Most barristers supplement their income with lecturing, although I know a lot of this has dried up (eg lecturing nurses on medical law, employment law for hr professionals) and Griffith, Portobello FE1 prep course lecturing is mostly a closed shop.

Being a barrister can be very rewarding however you have to understand and realise that you may be sitting around doing very little work and earning very little money for the first few years. Also you don't necessarily get paid immediately after doing the work eg opinions or court appearances and it can take awhile for a settlement cheque to come in from an insurance company (for example).

Hope this helps, I'm not trying to put you off, I'm just trying to give you a clearer picture of the situation. The idea that barristers (and solicitors) are loaded is very untrue. It is mainly barristers with 10 years plus experience and senior solicitors and partners in law firms that are earning substantial incomes these days!

legal eagle 1

MDS2009 that was an insightful post thank you! Are you a barrister yourself?

Wantobe

I've been a practising solicitor for a fair few years now and am very glad I didn't go down the barrister route.

A solicitor has the choice of being self-employed, in a partnership, an employee, a locum, part-time etc. Practically it is much more flexible and you also have support if you are in a firm with a few colleagues. This becomes more important as you get older and have children and need a little bit more flexibility ( unless your partner is happy to be a stay -at - home mom or dad or you have great family support).

The barristers I know come in three types ( but this is 'down the country' on circuit):

1. The young, untried barrister that is reliant on getting referrals from other colleagues and is basically surviving on a few motion lists and no big cases. Being supported by parents, living at home and working long hours, travelling all over the circuit, not making ends meet.

2. The middle income barrister- probably not making enough to have a full-time secretary but might have a part time or contract worker. Getting known by solicitors, getting work but again, late hours, travel, a lot of smoozing necessary with solicitors to guarantee on-going fee income. Doing okay but if they were a solicitor at this point would be earning quite a bit more.

3. The big-wig on circuit- has their own secretary, office the works. Much in demand, solicitors will wait months for them to take on a case. They are good on their feet, they have a few big firms who ALWAYS retain them, they are guaranteed work. They have a great income, doing much better than their solicitor contemporaries.

Then they take silk ( or a few don't) and either go quiet or into the stratosphere...

The circuit is such a small arena that everyone knows every thing about you- no secrets there. Mostly they are a good bunch, no discrimination on sexes-this is a meritocracy. You will also find the older, busy barristers actively try to send work the way of the junior barristers. I often ring up my fav barristers for small cheese and am asked to send a bit of work the way of someone who needs it. I will always oblige on the small cheese cases but of course won't send the difficult or big cases their way until I am sure they are able for it. Though unfortunately this can mean that the junior barristers are in a bit of a catch 22- cant get the big cases until they prove themselves, can't prove themselves until they get the big cases.

Tough business, plenty of adrenalin and of course a bit addictive because of that. Used to be travelling on circuit all the time myself so been there, done that. But glad I am on the solicitor side...

legal eagle 1

Wantobe........how are you finding being a solicitor in the current climate? Is it tough going?

nuac

Very interesting post Wantobe. As a self employed solicitor of 30++ years experience agree with much of what you say.

However looking back on the decades I am sorry I did not go for the Bar. The overheads and increasing regulation are making it very unattractive to be a solicitor these days.

The work has become increasingly complex -
e.g. the onerous obligations now in advising a Plaintiff in a personal injury action
the incessant client pressure etc etc.

A barrister at least does a case, finishes it and hands back the papers and goes onto the next case.

The solicitor has to live with the case before and after the court appearance..

In a solicitors' office issues from old cases can suddenly become time consuming problems.

It is important for circuit going barristers that the Circuit Court judge gets through the list reasonably quickly without too much grief for the litigants and lawyers. Over the years I have seen some very good operators on the bench, some who were very nice but s l o w, and some who were a trial in themselves.

In my early days the judge in my area was a nice man but slow, so it was difficult for barristers to get cases finalised.

fliptzer

I have to agree, I don't see it as huge earning potential especially within the first few years. I'd be quite happy to get enough to pay the mortgage and have enough left over for cigs and pints, anything else is a bonus.

this is just my view but I don't think it's a job that will eventully roll the money in, I'm currenly self employed and love it but if you don't work you don't get paid - that simple.

I'd like to practice and work on interesting stuff, that's about it. As long as I'm enjoying it I really don't care about the money and have already plans for FLAC.

dats_right

nuac wrote: »

Very interesting post Wantobe. As a self employed solicitor of 30++ years experience agree with much of what you say.

However looking back on the decades I am sorry I did not go for the Bar. The overheads and increasing regulation are making it very unattractive to be a solicitor these days.

The work has become increasingly complex -
e.g. the onerous obligations now in advising a Plaintiff in a personal injury action
the incessant client pressure etc etc.

A barrister at least does a case, finishes it and hands back the papers and goes onto the next case.

The solicitor has to live with the case before and after the court appearance..

In a solicitors' office issues from old cases can suddenly become time consuming problems.

It is important for circuit going barristers that the Circuit Court judge gets through the list reasonably quickly without too much grief for the litigants and lawyers. Over the years I have seen some very good operators on the bench, some who were very nice but s l o w, and some who were a trial in themselves.

In my early days the judge in my area was a nice man but slow, so it was difficult for barristers to get cases finalised.

I certainly don't have anywhere near the same level of experience as Nuac, but agree with these comments. Increasing regulation of the solicitors profesion and professional indemnity insurance set to treble this year are also enormous issues for solicitors. Barristers aren't particularly affected by these considerations, nor do they have much contact with clients (which can be a blessing when you're getting multiple phone calls or unreasonable demands).

Also, I think Wantobe makes some excellent observations regarding the barristers profession. I disagree slightly with one thing though, I would consider the barrister branch of the profession to be more family friendly than the solicitor side. Because as an employed solicitor you will be required to work 9-5+, mon-fri from an office. Whereas as a barrister you will only spend some days in court, maybe 10ish to 3 on average if in Law Library, okay on Circuit with long lists that can be a lot later but equally if you're at the top of the list you can finish early too but if a solicitor finishes early it's straight back to the office to deal with correspondence/calls/catch up in general. Also a lot of a barrister's work such as reading briefs, corresponding with solicitors and drafting can and usually is done from home and can be done, within reason, at your own time and pace which can be arranged around family, etc.

Also as a barrister when term is finished, unlike solicitors with their misereable 20 days holidays per year, you are on your holidays meaning that 2 weeks off in January, 2 more in April, 2 more end of May/beginning of June, not forgetting 1st August to the 1st Monday in October i.e. the full months of September and August off. In fairness, only teachers have better holidays! So on balance I think there is a lot to be said for being a barrister, particularly if you like long holidays and/or have family commitments.

legal eagle 1

Just of curiousity would it be possible to practice as a Solicitor for several years and than diversify and become a Barrister?? Like you would have several contacts and connections built up, a standing created in the legal world. Is this possible? Has anyone done this?

maidhc

One thing I notice happening is that some slightly larger firms have parters who might have a child a barrister, and that child becomes for all intents and purposes the firms counsel.

Tom Young

legal eagle 1 wrote: »

Just of curiousity would it be possible to practice as a Solicitor for several years and than diversify and become a Barrister?? Like you would have several contacts and connections built up, a standing created in the legal world. Is this possible? Has anyone done this?

Yes, you can convert, but I think that there are examination requirements. Plenty of exemptions. If memory serves, you may have to do the Inns clinical programme.

Tom

Jo King

legal eagle 1 wrote: »

Just of curiousity would it be possible to practice as a Solicitor for several years and than diversify and become a Barrister?? Like you would have several contacts and connections built up, a standing created in the legal world. Is this possible? Has anyone done this?

A solicitor can transfer after three years in practise. No exams required. Some solicitors have done it. A few transfer every year. Finnegan J of the Supreme Court was a solicitor who became a barrister as was Finlay-Geoghegan J of the High Court.

IT Loser

Jo King wrote: »

When you are in a hole the thing to do is stop digging. Better to give up now before you waste any more time and money.

Yes, this is what people told me when I repeated my Leaving Cert to get the points. Terrified they are of the lads coming through the ranks. I'd say you have my best interests at heard, alright:D

NO WAY would I advise ANYONE who has their degree and masters in Law to start taking backward steps right now. No way.

Amazotheamazing

IT Loser wrote: »

NO WAY would I advise ANYONE who has their degree and masters in Law to start taking backward steps right now. No way.

You will when you eventually qualify and join the dole.

Dante09

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

You will when you eventually qualify and join the dole.

Not everyone shares your predictions for the forthcoming decade.

IT Loser

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

You will when you eventually qualify and join the dole.

Already applied for the dole.;) I used to get work from a barrister friend who threw me a few quid to check titles for him. No more conveyancing no more titles no more money. Dole Time. Guess what....my tip is still hard for the legal end of things. Nothing like nothing like knowing the rules, is there? Thats why I regard myself as 100% into the legal thing, for me, the whole angle was knowing the rules, knowing the law. I still have that ambition. It used to be about money, not anymore.

IT Loser

Dante09 wrote: »

Not everyone shares your predictions for the forthcoming decade.

My attitude is that it is what you make of it. They say there is "no work" blah blah blah. Its all a matter of perspective. I asked the question a page ago and still cant get an answer, when people say "no money" what do they mean? Cant make the payments on the BMW 5 Series or Cant make the payments on the TV rental??