Road race course measurement

RoyMcC

There have been a few posts on this subject recently but I am still puzzled as to the measuring protocol in Ireland. In the UK (I'm not suggesting Ireland is/should be the same) one can only obtain a race permit having submitted a 'certificate of course accuracy'. This certificate can only be provided by an approved course measurer who uses a Jones counter - attached to a calibrated bicycle, to do the job.

Similarly a marathon is only recognised as such internationally where an IAAF-approved measurer has certified the course in the same manner.

Wheels, GPS systems etc are not approved methods.

On what basis in Ireland do AAI (presumably via the county boards) issue permits, especially with regard to accuracy of distance?

(I could of course ask AAI but I suspect I'll get a quicker answer here )

osnola ibax

I know this doesn't answer your question but the Wexford half marathon course was measured using a jones counter, according to the website anyway, and was aai permit approved

Peckham

AFAIK routes/distances need to be validated by a certified course measurer, of which they're aren't that many in the country. Not sure what method is used, but don't think it's as stringent as a Jones counter (I could be wrong though).

Article on DCM site about it being measured last year.

What's the difference between Jones Counter and a wheel measurement?

RoyMcC

Peckham wrote: »

AFAIK routes/distances need to be validated by a certified course measurer, of which they're aren't that many in the country. Not sure what method is used, but don't think it's as stringent as a Jones counter (I could be wrong though).

Article on DCM site about it being measured last year.

What's the difference between Jones Counter and a wheel measurement?

Thanks. I don't get the impression that all permitted races have been subject to measurement by a certified measurer. I hope it's not enough for an organiser to just confirm that the course has been measured.

Here's a good description of how the Jones counter works http://www.hkmarathon.com/marathon/eng/mcorner/topic/jun06/default.jsp

A wheel is one of those things that you trundle along in front of you - OK for approximations.

Stupid_Private

I've said before about the system UKA and Northern Ireland Athletics use - why it's not carried out here is beyond me.

As RoyMc said you have to obtain the cert from an official measurer - none of this car, wheel, GPS lark - proper by the book official. If you don't have the cert then you don't get the licence, simple.

As a punter you can go onto the course measurement website and search for the licence. By searching 'Victoria' I can find the course details for the Victoria 5 race I took part in last year.

Another race I was in this year in Armagh has the cert on the race website, the course measurement data and the course measurement calibration.

Another thing I spotted on the NI athletics website is that it's compulsorary for the race to have a referee who is independent from the race itself. There's a list of officials in your area to get in touch with. Also a list of standards that must be reached has to be signed on the application. This type of thing would stop the likes of the Mens Mini marathon from being short because the lead car misses a turn. Ensuring the course is properly marshalled prevents this.

To finish, all races must offer a discounted price to registered UKA members

RoyMcC

So what's the Irish system Private - what needs to go on the application form as regards the course?

Stupid_Private

RoyMcC wrote: »

So what's the Irish system Private - what needs to go on the application form as regards the course?

Hard Worker has said before that in Dublin they must have the course measured before a permit is given out. Maybe that's the case but two 10km races, that I know of, in the Phoenix Park this year haven't been to the proper standard for a race. One race wasn't able to publish results and the other missed a kilometre of the race as I mentioned above.
Maybe a list of rules/standards exist, like in Northern Ireland, for running a race but they're just not enforced properly.

How the measurements are carried out is something that someone with more knowledge than me will have to say. If all these courses do have measurement certs then why aren't they published somewhere?

Clum

How does one become a certified course measurer?

A certified course measurer who's qualification is recognised in Ireland, that is.

Condo131

Races in Ireland are supposed to be measured prior to applying to the AAI for a permit. Unfortunately lots of races don't comply with this and the AAI don't enforce any penalty or sanction.

The IAAF procedure on Road Race Measurement are required to be followed when measuring courses.

There is an old list of AAI accredited measurers on the AAI website.

I can’t speak for the rest of the country, but the vast majority of races in Cork and Waterford have been measured by someone who has AAI accreditation.

Measurement with anything other than a Jones counter is not permitted.

I’ll post later on how to become an accredited measurer.

Condo(r)131 - aka eagle262
AAI National Grade Measurer

Krusty_Clown

I was wondering this very thing myself, and Lecheile sent me on a fantastic description of his experiences of working with an IAAF Course Measurer.
I hope you don't mind me re-printing this Lecheile. I've removed the names for pertinence!

Just so that you are aware, my experience of measuring a couple of different courses for our club 5k race and a recent encounter with an official IAAF Course Measurer. The CM came out last month to certify a new course. I had measured the course on my bike with an Aldi bike computer and was happy enough that when the official course was to be certified we could move the start +/- 100m if required. My naïve view was that the CM would come out with a trundle wheel (or similar) and do a quick loop of the course and hand over a cert……the process is a little more complicated than that:

(1) Day before measurement he had to come and find a 400m straight line where he would stretch his steel 400m tape, along which he calibrated his Jones’ Counter (http://www.jonescounter.com/) by recording the number ‘clicks’ for 400m. He has to validate the temperature when measuring as you have to adjust the 400m for every degree the temp varies from 20 deg. Unfortunately he could not find a straight 400m in Leixlip so had to go to Phoenix park. Has to be the close to measurement day so that tyre pressures, weather and various other factors that need to be considered are as similar as possible.
(2) Equipped with his calibrated ‘clicks’ per kilometre, the CM set off on the course, taking the racing line around the course – at times darting across the roads with what appeared to be a total disregard for personal safety, in the interest of accurate measurement! That was fine at 8:30 on the Sunday morning, but at the 5th time we were going over the route, the traffic was a little heavier. It took 5 attempts as there was a misunderstanding around the finishing line, but I got a sense that 3 times would not be unusual by the time when you get the start / finish exactly right
(3) Once he has a start, racing line and a finish for (5k in our instance) he added on a meter, and job done.

RoyMcC

Thanks Krusty, that's much as I understand it. The measurement is often done back in the opposite direction as well i.e. finish to start.

It's just a shame that (as it appears) the AAI don't enforce these standards. (They're picky enough about other little rules). Not knocking those race organisers who give it their best shot and usually get pretty close anyway.

And as I'm sure Condo131 would testify it is better to be a touch long than too short so that the race is '...no less than 10km', for example.

Condo131

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Has to be the close to measurement day so that tyre pressures, weather and various other factors that need to be considered are as similar as possible.

Just to clarify this point. The calibration course needs to be measured as described just once and then used to calibrate for each subsequent race measurement. Then for each course measurement, a calibration is done using this track, IMMEDIATELY before AND after the measurement. If you calibrate any earlier, there is a major risk of variation due, primarily, to tyre pressure variation. [I once calibrated after driving to the calibration course - it was absolutely freezing, so I decided not to cycle there (and warm up the tyres). I then did the (re)measurement of an existing course, only to find that the start was about 60m beyond where it should have been - tyres had warmed up and expanded over the course of the ride. I didn't even bother to do the post measurement calibration. Lesson learn't - warm up the tyres first!!]

Most organisers know where they want to start but they know EXACTLY where they want to finish, so I always start at the finish and work back. You need to check out where they don't want to start also. Surprising how many people think "Well, I drove it, so it will start here and finish there" and expect you to confirm their guesstimate, not wanting changes to either start or finish. This is the usual cause of remeasurement.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

....he added on a meter, and job done

The add a meter method isn't used any more. A factor of o.oo1, called the Short Course Protection Factor (you might see this as SCPF in places) is instead added to ensure that the distance isn't short.

The course is supposed to be measured in such a way that nobody can run shorter that the certified distance and tapes/barriers etc are meant to be used to prevent people from taking inventive short-cuts. I'm always amazed at how many - the majority really - go round bends in the centre of the road - in races, I always cut corner to corner, unless there is a good reason (camber, surface etc) not to. Why run 5.1km in a 5k race?

wrt course measurement, most people think that the purpose is to ensure that the course is exactly, say, 5 miles. However, as I said before, it's actually to ensure that nobody can run shorter than 5M. As RoyMcC says, it can be long, but not short. A 5M record stands if the course is 5M or greater. It fails if the course is short.

T runner

Heres a thread on IMRA where GPS's measured the DCM at 26.4. A race organiser came in to explain how it was measured. Towards bottom of thread.

Peckham

Very interesting thread.

Of course, this all only applies to races with AAI permits. One would expect that with the running boom we live in at the moment, that more and more privately organised races will start up without AAI permits.

That said, I'm sure many of the participants in those races won't care one way or the other whether it has an AAI permit.

RoyMcC

Peckham wrote: »

Very interesting thread.

Of course, this all only applies to races with AAI permits. One would expect that with the running boom we live in at the moment, that more and more privately organised races will start up without AAI permits.

That said, I'm sure many of the participants in those races won't care one way or the other whether it has an AAI permit.

If we (apparently) have AAI races with non-approved measurements then for sure non-permit races won't bother. Really the county boards (if it is they who grant permits) should be doing a better job in ensuring high standards. That is, in all aspects of the race organisation.

And I would expect the highest standards to apply in the big events with chunky entry fees. I don't think it would be fair to impose too rigid a standard on the smaller, club-led races. But us runners get a bit obsessive about our times/distances and organisers ought to be ensuring course accuracy as far as is practicable.

plodder

Peckham wrote: »

Very interesting thread.

Of course, this all only applies to races with AAI permits. One would expect that with the running boom we live in at the moment, that more and more privately organised races will start up without AAI permits.

That said, I'm sure many of the participants in those races won't care one way or the other whether it has an AAI permit.

True, but some people will care, particularly with privately organised races, because an official stamp of approval, might be the only way of knowing that the race is properly organised, as opposed to a fun-run, which you might not care so much about.

The AAI could have a certification scheme, with logos, branding etc. and charge a few quid for it then for certifying races, not just the course, but other aspects as well. Then, when a punter sees the certified logo on a race website, they'd know what to expect.

lecheile

Peckham wrote: »

Of course, this all only applies to races with AAI permits.

Which of course raises the issue of AAI registered athletes taking part in non-AAI permit events. If you take part in a non-AAI permit event the rules say that you risk a sanction which can include suspension from the Association. (Tried to find exact ruling from AAI website - but search on site not up to the task )

plodder

lecheile wrote: »

Which of course raises the issue of AAI registered athletes taking part in non-AAI permit events. If you take part in a non-AAI permit event the rules say that you risk a sanction which can include suspension from the Association. (Tried to find exact ruling from AAI website - but search on site not up to the task )

I'm curious. What does it mean to be an AAI registered athlete? Is the rule something to do with insurance possibly??

lecheile

plodder wrote: »

I'm curious. What does it mean to be an AAI registered athlete? Is the rule something to do with insurance possibly??

Anyone who is a paid-up member of an AAI affiliated club, will be registered with the AAI (so that includes members of Boards AC, and I believe - but open to correction - members of BHAA).

I don't believe its an insurance matter as there is no link between the AAI and the non-AAI permitted events, more to do optics and members being associated with unauthorised / unsanctioned events (or Flapper events as they are referred to). Membership has its benefits, but also certain restrictions.

plodder

lecheile wrote: »

Anyone who is a paid-up member of an AAI affiliated club, will be registered with the AAI (so that includes members of Boards AC, and I believe - but open to correction - members of BHAA).

I don't believe its an insurance matter as there is no link between the AAI and the non-AAI permitted events, more to do optics and members being associated with unauthorised / unsanctioned events (or Flapper events as they are referred to). Membership has its benefits, but also certain restrictions.

Flapper events ....I love that

Hard Worker

BHAA members are not affiliated to the AAI ( unless they are seperately a member of an AAI affiliated club ). Likewise with IMRA members.
In other words, you can be a member of the BHAA or IMRA and not necessarily a member of AAI.

Condo131

Anyone who is a registered member of the AAI is covered by the AAI insurance policy. It does NOT include members of the BHAA (unless they are also members of an AAI club). Q. Is Boards.ie an AAI registered club? No reason why not - just asking?

The BHAA has nothing to do with the AAI and vice-versa, except that the Dublin City Marathon, organised and run by the BHAA, has, for the recent past also included the AAI National Marathon Championship. They appear to have a mutual tolerance agreement <grin>

I think you'll find that most, if not all of theses independent races are run under a permit granted to a local AAI club. Don't know how the Club usually benefit.

About 20 years ago, the Belgooly 10 in Cork didn't have a permit and 1 (one) athlete - the winner - was suspended, nobody else. Loads of other BLE (presursor to AAI) registered runners took part, some under pseudonyms. other than that case, I don't know of any sanction being imposed.

baza1976

Peckham wrote: »

Very interesting thread.

Of course, this all only applies to races with AAI permits. One would expect that with the running boom we live in at the moment, that more and more privately organised races will start up without AAI permits.

That said, I'm sure many of the participants in those races won't care one way or the other whether it has an AAI permit.

I don't know.... I don't want to be runnning 10ks to find out later that I only ran 9k.. I don't really care what permit it has as long as it is what it says on the tin... 10k = 10k

spurscormac

Thats interesting about the potential suspensions...

Lots of us non-competitive AAI club members run in races of all sorts, and I have no idea whether the distances are measured and certified or not.

Does that mean that if I run in a fun-run under my own name & club, I could potentially be suspended?

Sounds ridiculous to me.

plodder

Condo131 wrote: »

I think you'll find that most, if not all of theses independent races are run under a permit granted to a local AAI club. Don't know how the Club usually benefit.

Sounds a bit dodgy to me. Maybe explains why the course measurements etc. might not always be up to scratch.

It goes back to what I said earlier. They really should either not involve themselves in these independent races at all, or else provide some way for the organisers to certify them directly with the AAI. This probably sounds like marketing mumbo jumbo. But an organisation like the AAI is a brand, and they should protect the value of the brand. It should mean something if a race is "AAI approved".

aburke

As part of the Programme for the National 10km road race we orgainsed last year, we had an article about the measurement.
http://www.athenryac.com/files/08Nat10KMbooklet.pdf
One of our members is FANATICAL about accurate jones countered measurement, and I have to admit, it has rubbed off on me, and Igenerally ask whether a race whether a race is jones countered before I run it.
[I might still run it even without a cert, but not count it for PB purposes].

The letter of the law is that a race needs to have a measurement cert before getting an AAI permit.
Ironcially we we told the AAI were cracking down and insisting on certs before issuing permits, but I have my doubts as to whether that is enforced across the board.

PS - As a race organiser and runner, Safety still comes first.
The AAI don't seem to have any standards there. Have the UK?

Stupid_Private

aburke wrote: »

PS - As a race organiser and runner, Safety still comes first.
The AAI don't seem to have any standards there. Have the UK?

The Northern Ireland athletics site is very detailed with information about getting a permit. They've 3 levels of safety. A race organiser must be able to prove they can provide a minimum of level 1 before a permit is issued.

Event organisers must be able to demonstrate that sufficient consideration to duty of care, and any risks that may be associated with the event, including medical requirements, have been appraised and planned accordingly within the risk assessment.
Suitably qualified First Aid/ Medical personnel must be available at the Start, the Finish and on the Course according to the severity, nature of the course, distance, size of field and likely temperature.

LEVEL 1 (Basic “1 star” level)
• Personnel - first aiders. The number to be determined by the race organisers.
• Lead first aider - nominated person who liaises with race organiser
• Ability to contact emergency services for medical support
• Communication between on site first aid team and with race marshals
• Ambulance - not required but may be present
• ALS - defibrillator not required but may be present

aburke

Stupid_Private wrote: »

The Northern Ireland athletics site is very detailed with information about getting a permit. They've 3 levels of safety. A race organiser must be able to prove they can provide a minimum of level 1 before a permit is issued.

For our own races we would be at level 2, for the most part.

No mention of how to deal with safety on the roads, but maybe getting full road closures isn't the pipe dream it is down here.

RoyMcC

aburke wrote: »

PS - As a race organiser and runner, Safety still comes first.
The AAI don't seem to have any standards there. Have the UK?

The British Association of Road Races (BARR) has a self-regulating scheme whereby you sign up as a Bronze, Silver or Gold event. Each level carries minimum requirements of organisation and safety.

However BARR membership is optional only.

I have lost touch somewhat now but the permit-issuing regions (now defunct) used to insist on a risk assessment but never checked these to my knowledge.

Hard Worker

aburke wrote: »

PS - As a race organiser and runner, Safety still comes first.
The AAI don't seem to have any standards there. Have the UK?

The FAI, GAA and IRFU have FETAC courses for stewards. The FAI also hold courses for Event Controllers and Safety Officers. The AAI don't seem to have any such courses.
At one National cross country championship event last Winter, there was no ambulance present. That's not good enough when you consider there were four races taking place and a few hundred spectators in attendance.

Peckham

Condo131 wrote: »

Q. Is Boards.ie an AAI registered club? No reason why not - just asking?

It is indeed. Registered as a Dublin club, but with members all over the country .... applications still being accepted!

Condo131

Peckham wrote: »

It is indeed. Registered as a Dublin club, but with members all over the country .... applications still being accepted!

Good to hear! Looking forward to doing battle on the roads/track/XC etc.:cool:
BTW, Boards will have to run a bit faster to beat Golden Eagles (Eagle AC) in the CCM relay next year - 15th, 2:59:52 (average age :48):D. [I've an awful feeling that I may come to regret throwing down that particular gauntlet :eek:- still we were carrying 3 people with injuries!] 0:3:39 up to ye!