Hitler's Intervention in Poland - 1939

polishpaddy

Tens of thousends of German civilians were being persecuted and murdered by polish mobs incited by Jewish Propaganda. Entire Famlies were buttchered and slaughtered by these blood thirsty mobs. Hitler sent the Wehrmacht to save the remnants of the German minority in Poland. The true reason why Hitler intervened there!

Discuss.

marcsignal

polishpaddy wrote: »

Tens of thousends of German civilians were being persecuted and murdered by polish mobs incited by Jewish Propaganda. Entire Famlies were buttchered and slaughtered by these blood thirsty mobs. Hitler sent the Wehrmacht to save the remnants of the German minority in Poland. The true reason why Hitler intervened there!

i've heard that before, from old people in Germany in fact, but losers don't write the history, so it's very very difficult to know, for sure.

Local-womanizer

polishpaddy wrote: »

Tens of thousends of German civilians were being persecuted and murdered by polish mobs incited by Jewish Propaganda. Entire Famlies were buttchered and slaughtered by these blood thirsty mobs. Hitler sent the Wehrmacht to save the remnants of the German minority in Poland.The true reason why Hitler intervened there!

Discuss.

Then Hitler went on to slaughter 11 million people like animals.

In Martin Malone's book about his experiance in Lebanon,he wrote a great line putting down the Isrealis reasons for attacking their neighbours,I cant remember it exactly but it went along the basis of you shouldent stoop to your enemies level but rather hold yourself above them and it will stand you better in the long term.

Anyway,Hitler seen this as a perfect excuse to exercise his extreme racial views.

marcsignal

found something on this

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/polish_atrocities.htm

edit

Contains extremely graphic photos of murdered people

Morlar

I have read accounts of this before, it is one side of the story that challenges the accepted version and therefore doesn't get much publicity.

Dinter

I've heard of this before. Still I can't understand why, if it were true, the Germans would have resorted to actual documented shenanigans such as Operation Himmler. If Hitler had to say to his generals that he was going to fabricate a casus belli then I don't believe there could have been widespread massacres with "tens of thousands" affected.

Germany had one of the best propoganda machines in the world at the time. There is no way we would need to depend on people's memories as we all know the Ministry of Public Enlightenment would have blown the slightest Polish violence against civilians out of all proportion.

I'm sure there would have been civilian on civilian violence in the lead up to the invasion as the two nations sabre rattled. That's inevitable. However I think the terms of the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact show the real reason for the invasion and it's not to save civilians.

(Apologies if Marcsignal's link refutes all that. Can't access it in work!!)

arnhem44

If you check out the link it gives a short account of the Polish killing the Germans that lived there


http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_east.html#Poland

FiSe

marcsignal wrote: »

found something on this

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/polish_atrocities.htm

edit

Contains extremely graphic photos of murdered people

Neonazi revisionist propaganda?

Not saying that some of it never happened, but look at the language all that pamphlet is written... You can't be serious and take it as a historical document.
Reminds me of the Munich crisis, when during the 1st days of the meeting Hitler claimed that 300 Reichsdeutsche were killed 'only today' in Czechoslovakia...

FiSe

arnhem44 wrote: »

If you check out the link it gives a short account of the Polish killing the Germans that lived there


http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_east.html#Poland

I think it's quite the opposite, the Germans are killing the Poles in there

latter: Ohh, I see it now. The first paragraph:

ATROCITIES IN POLAND (Polish Revenge)

Unable to stem the onrush of German forces during the invasion of their country, Polish soldiers and civilians started fleeing eastwards. It was during this flight to the east that the ethnic German civilians, resident in Poland for many years, received the full impact of the spite and hate stored up in the hearts of the fleeing Polish soldiers and their civilian followers. Between September 4 and September 8, 1939, in the communities of Eichdorf, Hopfengarten and Narzheim nearBromberg the polish soldiers began an orgy of murder and rape that is beyond belief. German houses were entered and the occupants arrested and then murdered. Not all were shot, many were brutally put to death by all sorts of tools and their bodies severely mutilated. As the soldiers left to search for more German houses, their civilian helpers were left behind to plunder and steal and in most cases, to set the house on fire. Many of the German women were raped before being shot. During this retreat from the west, the Polish soldiers, together with the communist civilian irregulars, were responsible for the deaths of many thousands of German residents. At a later investigation, the testimonies of 593 witnesses established the fact that at least 3,841 named ethnic Germans were murdered by the Poles prior to the full German occupation. These revenge murders were carried out as early as April, 1939 in the Polish Corridor. In September, 1939 these Volksdeutsche formed themselves into Self-Protection units known as Selbschutz and came under the control of the SS and later under the Ordungspolizei (Order Police). The infamous reputation that it earned caused it to be disbanded on 30th of November, 1939. These massacres were one of the causes that gave Hitler the excuse to invade.

PACIFICATION

After the German takeover of Poland in 1939, so called 'pacification' raids on towns and villages were started. The SS method of 'pacifying' a district and subdue the local population was to shoot a few hundred of its inhabitants. Picked at random, they were marched to the place of execution and forced to undress and to lie face down in previously dug pits. They were then shot and their corpses covered with a layer of quick-lime. A second batch of victims were then ordered to lie down on top and after they were killed another layer of quick lime was thrown on top. This procedure was repeated till the pit was full. It was then trampled down until the surface was level and on which trees or grass was planted. Executions such as this were committed daily by the Nazi death squads as they marched victoriously through Poland, and later the Soviet Union. In the village of Szalas, all male inhabitants over the age of fifteen, some 300 in all, were rounded up and many machined-gunned to death, the others were locked in the local school which was then set on fire. An order issued by Hitler stated that "No German soldier could be brought to trial for any act committed against Polish or Russian citizens".

Between 1939 and 1945, Poland suffered 6,028,000 non-military deaths. Around three million were Jews and about 300,000 were Gypsies. The fate of the Gypsies is often neglected by most authors in their writings, yet they were subjected to the same mode of extermination as were the Jews.

BROMBERG MASSACRES (September, 1939)

In the area around Bydogszcz (Bromberg) about 10,000 non-Jewish Polish civilians were murdered in the first four months of the Nazi occupation. This, the largest town in Pomerania had a population of around 140,000. Its priests, lawyers, teachers and industry leaders were arrested and executed in the town's square by machine-gun fire. About 100 twelve to sixteen year old boy scouts were rounded up and machine-gunned to death on the steps of the Jesuit Church. For every German soldier shot, a group of between 50 and 100 Polish civilians were randomly selected and executed. Participating in the shooting of hostages on September 10th, 1939, were members of the Police Battalion 6 (Berlin). Head of the SS, Heinrich Himmler, had said 'All Poles will disappear from the world'. In the provinces of Lodz and Warsaw, the SS conducted a total of 714 executions which took the lives of 16,376 Polish civilians, mostly the leading intelligentsia and aristocracy, civil and political leaders. In mental hospitals around Bromberg around 3,700 mental patients were shot. The most victimized class of Polish society was the clergy. In Pomerania, only 20 of its 650 priests were allowed to remain, the rest were either shot or sent to concentration camps. In Wroclaw, 49% of its priests were killed. In Chelmno, 48%, Lodz, 37% and Poznan, 31%. In Warsaw 212 priests died at the hands of the invaders. The last transport of Jews from Bydogszcz arrived at the Warsaw Ghetto on March 10, 1941. In September, 1939, Poland had a Jewish population of 3,351,000. Only 369,000 were alive at the war's end. In the post-war period the city of Bromberg was surrounded by a network of Soviet concentration camps the inmates of which were ethnic German nationals and residents of the region arrested between 1944 and 1950.

Dinter

arnhem44 wrote: »

If you check out the link it gives a short account of the Polish killing the Germans that lived there


http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_east.html#Poland

The deaths of ethnic Germans at Bydgoszcz is considered one of the worst of its kind during the invasion.

In a city of 117, 000, swirling with the confusion of a ragged Polish Army withdrawl, possible ethnic German agitators, German airstrikes, a confirmed German Heer presence, massed panicked citizenry, raging fires etc there were approximately 300-500 ethnic German deaths.

That's quite a difference to the article you've quoted. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if there were reprisals. The Nazis had done a fantastic job of portraying the ethnic Germans as a fifth column in the months leading up to the invasion.

citizen_p

killings were carried out on both sides.....lets not forget germany was looking for a reason to expand its borders for "living space".

and many polish people were being put in forced labour camps.

marcsignal

FiSe wrote: »

Neonazi revisionist propaganda?

well yeah, i have to accept the authors motives are questionable, but my main focus was on the photos.
I had heard about these killings in Germany from, mainly, old timers, and many of them were not supporters of hitler.

I had seen photos regarding these issues before, and simply found the site on a google search for 'polish atrocities against germans'. Now the question has to be asked, why haven't we heard about these atrocities before, and why are they not documented, and as easily accessed in the same way as holocaust atrocities are ?

FiSe wrote: »

Not saying that some of it never happened, but look at the language all that pamphlet is written... You can't be serious and take it as a historical document.

i can't dispute the language, but i would consider the photographic evidence as a serious historical record, certainly as serious, and accurate, and horrible as the pictures of dead jews, which we are all familiar with. It's a question of how you deliver/present/interperet this evidence.

personally, and frankly, the more i see war crimes perpetrated by the IDF in the Middle East, with the world looking on, and how the holocaust is used as an idealogical weapon to bludgen Israels critics into silence, the less of a dirty word ww2 'revisionism' is fast becoming for me.

ejmaztec

I think that I posted this link on here some time ago, where the Polish, and attrocities carried out by others, are mentioned.


http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_east.html

FiSe

marcsignal wrote: »

.... war crimes perpetrated by the IDF in the Middle East, with the world looking on, and how the holocaust is used as an idealogical weapon to bludgen Israels critics into silence, the less of a dirty word ww2 'revisionism' is fast becoming for me.

Do we always have to end up in here? I could say exactly the same using almost the same words about Hamas. Every country has its magic formula to silent the uncomfortable question risers. And that's not what I expect from this discussion.

But you are right, the pictures are very upsetting. After all, people are just people and they will behave worse then an animals under certain circumstances, no matter on which side they are or which flag they are waving.
And you are right to ask why we can't hear about those crimes.

But, when you say 'A' you should follow with 'B', pictures won't tell you the full story, which could be much, much worse, but the story could be totally different than what you see on the picture.
I remember, that Germans used attack on radio Gliwice /spelling/ as a one of the reasons to attack Poland as well.
Needless to say that this attack and murders in the building was orchestrated and executed by members of the Abwehr.
Which makes you wonder how many of other killings could be planned or supported by similar organization/s?
Am not trying to create conspiracy theories here, it's just one of the questions.

Soviet secret police was involved heavily in the brutal revnge of the Czechs on the German population just after the liberation of the CZ.

Latchy

polishpaddy wrote: »

Tens of thousends of German civilians were being persecuted and murdered by polish mobs incited by Jewish Propaganda. Entire Famlies were buttchered and slaughtered by these blood thirsty mobs. Hitler sent the Wehrmacht to save the remnants of the German minority in Poland. The true reason why Hitler intervened there!

Discuss.

It was propaganda , Hitler needed an excuse to kick start the war .Dead poles were dressed up in German uniform to make it look like they had being massacred at the border .That was the beginning of it .....the invasion of poland followed .

Dr Strange

Latchy wrote: »

It was propaganda , Hitler needed an excuse to kick start the war .Dead poles were dressed up in German uniform to make it look like they had being massacred at the border .That was the beginning of it .....the invasion of poland followed .

What you mean is the Gleiwitz case. That is correct, it was orchestrated.

However, German civilians did suffer and die due to the growing anti-German feeling in Poland just before the war broke out. With all the propaganda used by the German Government side it is unfortunate that the few but nevertheless real incidences of ethnic Germans being killed now suffer from being mixed up with the propaganda. It is not surprising to see the difficulty in separating the two now.

Latchy

Preusse wrote: »

What you mean is the Gleiwitz case. That is correct, it was orchestrated.

Yes ,it was indeed .

However, German civilians did suffer and die due to the growing anti-German feeling in Poland just before the war broke out. With all the propaganda used by the German Government side it is unfortunate that the few but nevertheless real incidences of ethnic Germans being killed now suffer from being mixed up with the propaganda. It is not surprising to see the difficulty in separating the two now.

That is documented ok .Thing is they weren't the only ones to suffer but Hitler and co Magnified it to suit their Nazi agenda .

marcsignal

FiSe wrote: »

Do we always have to end up in here?

YES WE DO !! It is happening now, today in 2009 and it has to stop !!

FUCK the Sematics, frankly :pac:

Mahatma coat

Well said that man

+1

FiSe

marcsignal wrote: »

YES WE DO !! It is happening now, today in 2009 and it has to stop !!

FUCK the Sematics, frankly :pac:

Alriteso...
Discussion's over

getz

Latchy wrote: »

It was propaganda , Hitler needed an excuse to kick start the war .Dead poles were dressed up in German uniform to make it look like they had being massacred at the border .That was the beginning of it .....the invasion of poland followed .

germany had planned to invade poland months before.germany had a secret non-aggression pact with russia ,that they would partition poland between the two states WHEN they invaded it,germany invaded poland sept 1 1939. the soviet union invaded poland sept 17 1939. there was no excuse it was already planned

Dr Strange

getz wrote: »

germany had planned to invade poland months before.germany had a secret non-aggression pact with russia ,that they would partition poland between the two states WHEN they invaded it,germany invaded poland sept 1 1939. the soviet union invaded poland sept 17 1939. there was no excuse it was already planned

Yes, it was already planned but he still needed an excuse. He needed it to justify his actions to the people who voted him in in the first place. The German people.

arnhem44

Since Germany invaded Poland to reclaim lost territories and got beaten, have they? and when did they relinquish the claim on these territories?

Spiritoftheseventies

invading poland was merely a prerequisite to invading Russia.

marcsignal

FiSe wrote: »

Alriteso...
Discussion's over

FiSe I owe you an apology, I had a few drinks on me when I posted

despite feeling very strongly about the issue, I had no right to be downright rude to you.

I am sorry

ejmaztec

arnhem44 wrote: »

Since Germany invaded Poland to reclaim lost territories and got beaten, have they? and when did they relinquish the claim on these territories?

I think that the Germans, prior to the Central and Eastern European countries joining the EU, told the Poles that they didn't want the lost territory back.

Also, in a connected land-grab, where the Poles took possession of Teschen (German name), (Polish Cieszyn, Czech Těšina) a town on the Polish/Czech border, discussions are ongoing about the Poles handing it back to the Czechs. That one is a strange situation where the inhabitants still retain their Czech identity, but with Polish influence. I think that the children living in the town go across the border for a Czech education etc.