CRO

troubleahead

Hi,

because we are being asked to take a paycut I want to check out the company accounts which we are legally entitled to do, can anyone tell me that if i check these online and pay for it, can my company check who looked for the figures? I would obviously prefer if I could do it anonymously. Thanks

flash harry

troubleahead wrote: »

Hi,

because we are being asked to take a paycut I want to check out the company accounts which we are legally entitled to do, can anyone tell me that if i check these online and pay for it, can my company check who looked for the figures? I would obviously prefer if I could do it anonymously. Thanks

they cant check who got them

troubleahead

thanks flash!

JoeTurner

You can get company info via www.cro.ie using the search facility

You might be able to download accounts for the company (look under the "list submitted documents" option when you find the company) but chances are they will be abridged accounts - basically a summarised version of the main financial accounts. You might not find too much in the way of relevant information as abridged accounts tend to exclude most of the sensitive info (income, expenses, salary and employee details etc.)

troubleahead

got some files but there is nothing about company profit - am i downloading the wrong thing?

Axwell

Maybe try http://www.solocheck.ie/ dont know if it gives you any more details on the accounts though

patftrears

troubleahead wrote: »

am i downloading the wrong thing?

You are the only one who knows what you downloaded.
If you tell people the name of the files, they could help you.

troubleahead

what I seem to have downloaded is the company registration, it gives details of shareholders etc, but no mention of final turnover or profit.

Under 'company submissions' I've downloaded ''annual general return''- and thats what I got above lists of directors and shareholders etc.

JoeTurner

There's usually a second document called "account details" listed around the same date as the document you appear to have downloaded (I'm guessing you downloaded a dcoument called "B1 annual return").

Feel free to pm me the company name / number and I'll have a look on the CRO website for you....

troubleahead

thanks Joe, got that one and thats given me all the info I need!! hmmmm

DublinWriter

Annual company account submissions usually don't reveal an awful lot about the true profitability of a limited company as any good accountant will try to maximise their clients' tax liability on profits by writing off as much expenditure as they can.

The best way I found to judge a company's profitability was to look at the cars in car parking spaces of the Directors and senior management.

troubleahead

lol!! Yeah the figure I just found out would tie in with the flash cars in the parking spaces alright!!

Axwell

They could be company cars or BIK though dont forget, you would want to be sure of the facts before going in saying i printed of the accounts and look at xyz. But still its a good starting point for a conversation, so what was that 1k expenses bill for last week

troubleahead

lol yeah!!! the profits are high! and the cars are privately owned, they claim for mileage, expenses etc

darc

Chances are the accounts you are reading are for the 12 months up to last June or so. The change in the business climate from 2007/2008 to the last six month has been dramatic.

Many companies that have gone into liquidation over the past couple of months were profitable in 2007 but when the market turned, it turned quickly and deeply especially from November last to March.

keefg

DublinWriter wrote: »

Annual company account submissions usually don't reveal an awful lot about the true profitability of a limited company as any good accountant will try to maximise their clients' tax liability on profits by writing off as much expenditure as they can.

darc wrote: »

Chances are the accounts you are reading are for the 12 months up to last June or so. The change in the business climate from 2007/2008 to the last six month has been dramatic.

Many companies that have gone into liquidation over the past couple of months were profitable in 2007 but when the market turned, it turned quickly and deeply especially from November last to March.

Both excellent points. Also, last years accounts wont inform you of any supplier increase or any salary reductions taken by the directors since the last accounts were filed. Your clients may also be pushing your bosses for lower rates on products/services therefore forcing them to cut costs where they can to keep the work (and ultimately save jobs).

For a lot of businesses staff costs are among their highest outgoings and the first place to seek savings via reductions of salary or working hours, pay & bonus freezes and in the worst case redundancies

Just out of interest troubleahead, what do you hope to do with this information anyway?

I'm sure you're aware that times are tough for everyone and if I were an employee trying to reduce my costs in order to save the company and one of my staff came waving last years accounts under my nose & complaining about my cost saving measures then that person may very well find themselves unemployed.

Understandably you or no one else wants to have their wages frozen or reduced but I don't think viewing last years accounts will help you.

troubleahead

Hi Keefg,

I totally understand where you are coming from, the sales we had for 2007 were less than the sales we had for 2008, and the profit for 2007 was phenomenal. Anyway Im an intelligent person and if my company was in trouble or if for a second I thought it could go under of course I would take 10% less rather than join the dole queue. However, its very hard when your bosses take 3 week holidays at a time, drive big cars privately owned and four staff are asked to take 10% less pay, Pay which isnt high in the first place. Do you get where Im coming from, taking 50 euro off four staff isnt going to make the company keep afloat. What im saying is sales are down marginally from last year but in my honest opinon its only the cream off the top.

Im not being unreasonable and I suppose its harder for us because our bosses dont really work and the staff are the backbone of the whole thing.

I hope its resolved and they respect their staff. When the boom time was going on for the last four years (for us) I dont remember them coming to us at any stage saying thanks for all your hard work throughout the year, we've made a much better profit than last year, take 20 euro and have a drink... ooh no that wouldnt happen but the first sign of a hint of trouble and its taken straight off the staff...

lanternman

troubleahead wrote: »

Hi Keefg,

I totally understand where you are coming from, the sales we had for 2007 were less than the sales we had for 2008, and the profit for 2007 was phenomenal. Anyway Im an intelligent person and if my company was in trouble or if for a second I thought it could go under of course I would take 10% less rather than join the dole queue. However, its very hard when your bosses take 3 week holidays at a time, drive big cars privately owned and four staff are asked to take 10% less pay, Pay which isnt high in the first place. Do you get where Im coming from, taking 50 euro off four staff isnt going to make the company keep afloat. What im saying is sales are down marginally from last year but in my honest opinon its only the cream off the top.

Im not being unreasonable and I suppose its harder for us because our bosses dont really work and the staff are the backbone of the whole thing.

I hope its resolved and they respect their staff. When the boom time was going on for the last four years (for us) I dont remember them coming to us at any stage saying thanks for all your hard work throughout the year, we've made a much better profit than last year, take 20 euro and have a drink... ooh no that wouldnt happen but the first sign of a hint of trouble and its taken straight off the staff...

I know exactly where you are coming from. However, as you say the flash cars are privately owned and fair play to your bosses for having them. You also have to remember that the flash cars might not have been bought exclusively from their wage from your company.

As for the pay cuts, I think this is happening accross the board and perhaps your company feels that it should be decreasing wages to stay with industry standards but also to protect their cash flow. It is their job as company directors to act in a responsible manner. Sales might not yet be down that much but in a few months/years you might be grateful that the directors made cut backs.

In saying that I feel your frustration, as you fear the directors are only cutting your wage in order to keep theirs up. Also, many people feel that their bosses dont do any work but what has to be remembered is that without them the cleints may not be coming your direction and getting clients is the hard part compared to doing the work.

troubleahead

hi lantern man,

thanks for the reply, just want to know where else do you think they're getting the money for their cars?!! most of us have to pay for them from our wages!

And also with regard to clients, they dont deal with any, Its the staff who know our clients inside out and the directors do not put ANY business our direction, in fact I would go as far as to say, that the staff know far more than the owners about the business.

its a pity, but look no one died..

patftrears

Are the accounts abridged or full audited accounts ?
Audited should tell you the directors salaries, abridged tell you very little.

Post up a copy (change the figures uniformly, remove names) and I'll tell you how well the company is doing, it can be hard to interpret the figures from accounts.

troubleahead

I know the directors salaries too but I dont want to post any information to be honest. Im not going to show them the info, I just want to hear what they have to say first and then see how we go. I just dont see why we should take a pay cut unless they are losing money.. am I being unreasonable

keefg

troubleahead wrote: »

I know the directors salaries too but I dont want to post any information to be honest. Im not going to show them the info, I just want to hear what they have to say first and then see how we go. I just dont see why we should take a pay cut unless they are losing money.. am I being unreasonable

As annoying this must be for you it's not really any of your business what car a company director drives.

They might well be directors of several companies and just because you and your co-workers think they have nothing to do with the day to day running of the company you work for is irrelevant.

For all you know the "quiet" directors may have been bankrolling your company for years before it became profitable, there are so many variations to consider here.

This could also be a preventative measure. You say you don't want to take a pay cut unless the company is losing money? I think that's just crazy. I would rather see directors doing what they can to stop that situation rather than try to fix it after.

Again, all I can ask is what you are going to achieve by viewing the company accounts (which are probably irrelevant to the current business position)?

If I were in your position I would do one of two things....

1) Accept the pay cut, be glad that I have a job and hope things don't get worse.

2) Reject the pay cut and seek alternative employment.

If you go to your boss telling them that you have seen the company accounts and you disagree with the pay cut then I really do think you will be looking for a job very quickly.

It's not nice to be told you have to take a pay cut mate but I would suggest you keep you cool about it for now and see what the situation is in 6-12 months time.

lanternman

troubleahead wrote: »

hi lantern man,

thanks for the reply, just want to know where else do you think they're getting the money for their cars?!! most of us have to pay for them from our wages!

And also with regard to clients, they dont deal with any, Its the staff who know our clients inside out and the directors do not put ANY business our direction, in fact I would go as far as to say, that the staff know far more than the owners about the business.

its a pity, but look no one died..

Their money could have come from many places, previous investments that have come good, wealthy family background, more years working than you and so on and so on.

Yes you may all know their currently salaries and they could be much higher than yours but that is life. I dont know your current position but I have often seen the likes of juniors working crazy hours for very little while the directors are on 10 times their salaries! It is the nature of the beast the higher up you are the more you get paid and sometimes for doing less "work". However, work does not always mean being tied to a machine or a desk it can be making the strategic decisions to bring the company onto success. Also, these directors are quite possibly the people who took the risk and made the company good so they deserve their nice cars however, they financed them.

Look at it this way, if it was your company what would you honestly do differently?

If the directors have so little input and are useless as you say, what is stopping you from setting up your own company an taking the clients with you seeing as the know you so well?

keefg

lanternman wrote: »

If the directors have so little input and are useless as you say, what is stopping you from setting up your own company an taking the clients with you seeing as the know you so well?

Now there's a good suggestion!!

lanternman

keefg wrote: »

Now there's a good suggestion!!

Good stuff, dont forget me when buying you new fabcy car!