Rule 22 - Ball Assisting or Interfering with Play

GreeBo

Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that a ball might assist any other player, he may:
a. Lift the ball if it is his ball; or
b. Have any other ball lifted.
A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule 20-3). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the putting green (see Rule 21).
In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.
In stroke play, if the Committee determines that competitors have agreed not to lift a ball that might assist any competitor, they are disqualified.

It first says that you "may" mark it but then says that you can be disqualified for not marking it. Surely that "may" should be a "must"?

Logically if you consider that it "might assist any other player" and yet decline to lift it you are assisting the other player?

I always play this as "I will mark it if asked or if its obviously in their way". This means that often my ball will be left behind the hole and could potentially help someone else. Sounds like I should be DQ'd?

ShriekingSheet

No, it does make sense and you shouldn't be DQ'd. "May" means you have the option of moving it. You don't have to and won't be penalised if you don't. As you say, it's not a "must".

"competitors have agreed" is the phrase you're missing the point of.

So you can consider your ball to be assisting a player, and may leave it there. But if you make agreement with that player to do so, you have broken the rules. It's fair to assume this agreement would have to be verbal but as per the rule, it's up to the comittee to determine this.


Myself, I often leave my ball to assist another player. However, if, before he plays he says anything like "leave that there cheers", I'll have to mark it as there would be agreement there. If nothing is said (agreed), you're in the clear.

Jasonw

No. Unless, as the last line says unless you have agreed with your fellow competitor not to lift in order to assist play.

"In stroke play, if the Committee determines that competitors have agreed not to lift a ball that might assist any competitor, they are disqualified."

GreeBo

yeah I do still think its a bit flakey.
A - "do you want me to mark that?"
B- "no"
Is that an agreement to assist play?

I can only assume that if A has bothered to ask it must be somewhat in play and thus the only reason for leaving it would be to help B?

Jasonw

Sorry - you beat me to it
Perfect answer btw.

I had an incident a few months ago where I was playing with one of our club's team captain and we were having a bit of banter about a previous rules incident in which I'd dropped a ball correctly but he claimed I didn't. We were part of a 3 ball and the other player was about 15 feet from the hole and the team captain just off the green with his turn to play. The other ball was not really assisting him in any way but continuing the banter I remarked something like "It's all right, I won't make him mark that" "you couldn't anyway" was the reply. "Of course I could if I wanted it's in the rules" Even showing him the rule book wouldn't convince him.

It never ceases to amaze me the number of golfers who have been playing so long and have never bothered to read the rulebook.

Jasonw

GreeBo wrote: »

yeah I do still think its a bit flakey.
A - "do you want me to mark that?"
B- "no"
Is that an agreement to assist play?

I can only assume that if A has bothered to ask it must be somewhat in play and thus the only reason for leaving it would be to help B?

Still no agreement there in my opinion.
If the question had been "my ball might serve as a backstop for yours .Will I leave it there for you?" - Definite agreement

or the answer had been "no that'll help my ball" again agreement.

As you describe it I would say you are only answering his question.

On the other hand, if I was a fellow competitor I could force him to mark, or a committee member and I considered that the ball was assisting your play I could advise him that he has the right to mark it under the rules and if he still failed to do so it could be considered agreement to assist.
See decisions on rules of golf 22/7

GreeBo

Jasonw wrote: »

Still no agreement there in my opinion.
If the question had been "my ball might serve as a backstop for yours .Will I leave it there for you?" - Definite agreement

or the answer had been "no that'll help my ball" again agreement.

As you describe it I would say you are only answering his question.

On the other hand, if I was a fellow competitor I could force him to mark, or a committee member and I considered that the ball was assisting your play I could advise him that he has the right to mark it under the rules and if he still failed to do so it could be considered agreement to assist.
See decisions on rules of golf 22/7

You see this is the problem with these rules...so many grey areas!
Rule 22/6 says
If A and B agree not to lift a ball that might assist B, both players are disqualified under Rule 22-1. (Revised)

That doesnt say they are agreeing not to move it because it will assist one of them, it says they agree not to move it AND it MIGHT assist one of them?

In reality the only reason you wouldnt mark a ball is that you are too far away or its not "in play".

It seems to me that for safetys sake you should always mark a ball thats acting as a back-stop for the hole.

ShriekingSheet

I agree with GreeBo and disagree with Jason.

It's very clear what the rule is there for. It's there to stop people making arrangments to give each other an advantage. It's not there for bizarre situations like someone saying "is that ball okay" when a ball is 40 feet on the far side of the green. It gives the committee the power to deteremine the reality of the situation and as such, I think that any back-and-forth between two players which results in a ball being left near the hole will be considered agreement by the comittee.

stockdam

Other than on the putting green, I'm trying to work out how a ball would help somebody else.

The rule is there to stop people cheating. It's not there to penalise somebody who unknowingly helped somebody.

GreeBo

stockdam wrote: »

Other than on the putting green, I'm trying to work out how a ball would help somebody else.

The rule is there to stop people cheating. It's not there to penalise somebody who unknowingly helped somebody.

we are talking about on the putting green, specifically the ball being behind/around the hole.

I think there are 2 options to avoid getting a penalty or DQ'd.

1) Always mark
or
2) Only mark when asked to do so.

I think asking if the other players want it marked is open to getting you into trouble.

Hobart

stockdam wrote: »

Other than on the putting green, I'm trying to work out how a ball would help somebody else.

The rule is there to stop people cheating. It's not there to penalise somebody who unknowingly helped somebody.

It's all about the green, I also could not think of a scenario where a ball placement would help anybody, if it was off the green.

GreeBo wrote: »

I think there are 2 options to avoid getting a penalty or DQ'd.

1) Always mark
or
2) Only mark when asked to do so.

I think asking if the other players want it marked is open to getting you into trouble.

There's a third one, and I know it has been alluded to above, but if a player says "do you want me to mark that?" I believe that you are left with little option but to say yes.

If you do not, you are implying that you will get assistance from the ball being left (as per Greebo's post above).

GreeBo

Hobart wrote: »

There's a third one, and I know it has been alluded to above, but if a player says "do you want me to mark that?" I believe that you are left with little option but to say yes.

+1 on this. I was thinking the same over lunch.
How about if someone asks you and you explain to them that now they have asked you, you are "Forced" to say yes. On subsequent occasions could that be construed as an agreement?

I Would have often said and heard said "nah its fine". I think from no on I need to say yes, mark it please. (and then in my head, "You fool! why did you ask" )

PhilipMarlowe

Not exactly either
If I am chipping to the hole and your ball is 10 ft to the side and you ask me do I want it marked I will answer no.
Not because I think it might assist but only because it is not interfering. There is no way I would accept that this is in breach of any rule but as your ball gets closer to the hole or offers a potential backstop to a reasonable line of play then the situation gets more difficult.

GreeBo

Licksy wrote: »

Not exactly either
If I am chipping to the hole and your ball is 10 ft to the side and you ask me do I want it marked I will answer no.
Not because I think it might assist but only because it is not interfering. There is no way I would accept that this is in breach of any rule but as your ball gets closer to the hole or offers a potential backstop to a reasonable line of play then the situation gets more difficult.

Thankfully I covered myself on this one :pac:

GreeBo wrote:

we are talking about on the putting green, specifically the ball being behind/around the hole.

ShriekingSheet

Licksy wrote: »

Not exactly either
If I am chipping to the hole and your ball is 10 ft to the side and you ask me do I want it marked I will answer no.
Not because I think it might assist but only because it is not interfering. There is no way I would accept that this is in breach of any rule but as your ball gets closer to the hole or offers a potential backstop to a reasonable line of play then the situation gets more difficult.

But that's why it allows for the comittee to determine whether you agreed assistance. It doesn't say if you agree to assist you are DQ'd.

So in practice, if I reported you and your buddy for the example above, you'd simply outline the situation and where the ball was and the committee would most likely and sensibly deem you not guilty.