The Irish Language & Party Politics.

dlofnep

I'm just trying to gauge whether or not parties play a part in the views on the Irish Language. I don't want this to turn into a big attack on each other, so if you could respectfully just answer the poll (yeah dlofnep, fat chance!) - I'd appreciate it

The way it will work is, select your party - and then from 1-4 and the party you vote for, for your opinion on the language. 1 being non-supportive of the language and happy to see the back of it, 2 being little to mild support, but overall not caring, 3 being supportive of the language, and 4 being very supportive of the language, and maybe active within the Irish language movement or daily speaker. I know not everybody is going to fit perfectly into these categories, but just answer to whichever feels closest to you.

Also - I know some people may have change parties recently - but just vote for what you would traditionally vote for (if applicable).

Thanks for your time.

javaboy

Moved from After Hours. Please take a moment to read the charter of the Politics forum if you haven't posted here before and also wipe your feet.

dlofnep

Oops, actually meant to post it in this forum anyways. Must have been reading AH. Thanks javaboy

greyed

Culture is a great thing, If the entire world was americanised there would be nothing to see.

I dont get why some people love to rage against the langauge just because they cant speak it, they should redirect their bitterness towards the education system. If your argument is money, there are plenty other areas of wastage worth your time.

Two fingers to an ancient language just because its "boorin' and useliss" is arrogance in the extreme.

edit: To answer your question, Whoever I vote for is not set in stone(only rule being, its not FF), but I would definitely maintain my support for the language regardless. Im not sure id connect the two. Maybe if one party in particular had great ideas for promotion of the language, it may influence my vote, though it would not be the only factor of course.

dlofnep

That's fine, if you don't vote for anyone in particular, just select other

My name is URL

Personally, I don't care enough about the Irish language to delve into what the parties I vote for think about it. So it's a non-issue for me

Call me cynical, but will speaking Irish actually help us progress... in any way?

dlofnep

That's entirely subjective. I'm just interested to see the level of support

thebman

Couldn't give a rats arse about the Irish language TBH. It isn't used by many and takes up more money than its worth as far as I'm concerned.

It isn't because I can't speak it, it is because nobody else does so whats the point?

You can through out all the statistics you like but nobody I know speaks Irish fluently. It makes it difficult to learn as you can't get exposure to it in the real world outside of the educational system so why bother with it is my opinion basically.

The gaelteacht can go nuts and speak it all they want but in most of the country people don't care as far as I can see.

dlofnep

That's fine, appreciate your input.

Richard Cranium

Chríochnaigh mé an Ardteist seachtain go leith ó shin. Ní gá caint as Ghaeilge arís riamh, ach ní stopfaidh mé mar is maith liom an teanga. Tá mé i mo chónaí gar do ghaeltacht na nDéise (An Rinn). Tá roinnt do mo cháirde ina gcónaí ann, ach den chuid is mó níl an Ghaeilge ach ag mo chairde atá ina gcónaí taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Is dóigh liomsa nach dtuigeann daoine "fásta" cé comh mór a labhríonn daoine ogá an teanga.
Maidir leis an taobh polaitiúil den chomhá seo, san olltoghcháin áitiúil le déanaí, luaigh gach aon iarrthóir go raibh siad ag obair an t-am ar fad chun an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn sa cheantar. Ní raibh ach roinnt de na hiarrathóirí neamhspleácha agus cúpla as Fine Gael agus Sinn Féin ag insint an fhírinne, i mo thuairim.



Rough translation, with a little bit more added on at the end:
I finished the Leaving Cert a week and a half ago, and now I need never speak Irish again, but I will still because I like the language. I live quite near the Ring Gaeltacht in Waterford and I have a few friends living there, but only my friends who live outside the Gaeltacht can speak Irish or like to do so. It's surprising how often young people tend to use the language (around by my neck of the woods anyway), be it the cúpla focail or entire conversations in Irish.

As for the political side of this thread; in the local elections, every single flyer that came through the door had a sentence in Irish on it saying that this or that person was fully supportive of the Gaeltacht and was working tirelessly with the local community to support and strengthen the use of the language. However, in my opinion only a couple of independents from the region, and a one or two Sinn Féin and Fine Gael candidates could actually give evidence to support their claims.

On a national level, I view Fine Gael as having the best policy towards the language. I believe Enda Kenny is on record as saying that it should not be compulsory in schools, but that's a whole other debate.

dlofnep

Richard, an bhfuil tú i do chonaí i Dún Garbháin?

Richard Cranium

Táim i mo chónaí cúpla míle taobh amuigh de Dhún Garbhán, 'sea.

dlofnep

Ah, ceart go leor. Táim i bPort Láirge mé féin. Bhí ciorcal comhrá againn anseo, ach tá sé críochnaithe don samhraidh. An bhfuil aon ciorcal comhrá ann ansin?

Richard Cranium

Níl a fhios agam, ach bíonn cúrsaí Gaeilge labhartha ar fáil sa chéardscoil do cainteoirí beagnach líofa, agus roinnt eile ar son daltaí ag ullmhú don Bhéaltriail san Airdteist, agus foghlaimeoirí eile. Tá táillí aird ag baint leo go léír áfach.

Ceapaim go bhfuil grúpaí ag déanamh iarracht creche lán- Ghaeilge a bhunú sa Rinn áfach. Feicfimid cé mhéad polaiteoirí a thabharfaidh tacaíocht dóibh.

dlofnep

An bhfuil eolas agat don cursaí labhartha? Rinne mé ceann cosúil le sin anseo ó Gaelchultúr, ach bhí sé €240.. saghas costasach.. Tá carr agamsa, mar sin - níl fadhb ar bith dul ansin.

(If anyone wants a translation of anything we said, just ask. don't want to come across as ignorant)

conchubhar1

seriously fg four???????????????????????????

fine gael are about as pro irish as the dup and the pup are......

Richard Cranium

Ní féidir liom nasc ceart a dhéanamh ach seo dhuit:
http://www.qualifax.ie/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=66

Cuardaigh "Irish conversational". Gheobhaidh tú cúrsa amháin i gColáiste Chathal Naofa.

dlofnep

Ceart go leor, grmma a Richard.

SeanW

FG voter, primarily because they're the largest and most level headed opposition to FF.

I would be happy to see the back of the Irish language as it serves no useful function, ok I spent all my primary school years in Ireland and left it unable to string a sentence together As Gaelige, but I really don't care. English is my language. End of.

Switzerland and the United States are two excellent examples of proud peoples with strong cultures who don't have a questionable hangup about "their" unique language.

conchubhar1

SeanW wrote: »

FG voter, primarily because they're the largest and most level headed opposition to FF.

I would be happy to see the back of the Irish language as it serves no useful function, ok I spent all my primary school years in Ireland and left it unable to string a sentence together As Gaelige, but I really don't care. English is my language. End of.

Switzerland and the United States are two excellent examples of proud peoples with strong cultures who don't have a questionable hangup about "their" unique language.

i know there is a link to these two, but where batman where

dlofnep

SeanW wrote: »

Switzerland and the United States are two excellent examples of proud peoples with strong cultures who don't have a questionable hangup about "their" unique language.

The United States consists primarily of European immigrants, what exactly is their unique language? If you are referring to the native Americans, which consist of a very small amount of the population - you'll find that they do actually maintain their language. Very bad example.

Secondly - Switzerland maintains its own distinct dialect of German, which they attribute as their language, and the french speaking reason likewise. It's funny that you should mention Switzerland, because it's one country that is extremely hungup on language, and language separates many areas within Switzerland.

So tell me Seán - What are the US and Switzerland's unique languages?

Kev_ps3

As a Partiot I love my native language. My wish would be for the 32 countys speaking Irish only.

LordSutch

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

As a Partiot I love my native language. My wish would be for the 32 countys speaking Irish only.

Not very likely though, is it.

Kev_ps3

Camelot wrote: »

Not very likely though, is it.

Not with FF/FG/Labour in power anyway. Maby if we had a Patriot Party to vote for.

SeanW

dlofnep wrote: »

So tell me Seán - What are the US and Switzerland's unique languages?

They don't - that's why I put "their" in quotes. The U.S. is made up of English people, Italians, Irish, German, Africans, Oriental people and more recently, people from South America and Central Asia. Yet despite this - and the fact that they fought a brutal war of independence against England - they proudly speak the English language and consider it their own. They (like us) have a strong culture and fierce national identity. A unique language is not necessary.

As to Switzerland - you may be correct about them having a dialect. But that simply means they speak "foreign" languages with a few modifications. As no doubt you imagine, they are also fiercely nationalistic.

dlofnep

Seán - There is a big difference, and I'm not here to infringe on your opinion - because you're entitled to it and I respect it.. But the US doesn't HAVE an indigineous language, and neither does Switzerland (Swiss-German is their language and has been since the middle ages, and they are proud of it). The native Indians do have a language, and maintain that.

Also - You'll find within the US that many Italian-Americans learn Italian, and many Portuguese-Americans speak Portuguese. My friend's parents have lived in the states for 20 years, and still cannot speak English. She has to translate English for them.

Ireland is entirely different because we do have, and have always had an indigineous language. Ireland was always an Irish speaking Island, until colonization. Even then, it was a true bilingual society until the combined effect of mass death of Irish speakers from famine, and removal of the Irish language from our curriculum through the national schools.

My issue persay isn't with you stating that there is no onus on you to speak Irish. There isn't. I do have an issue with your examples of the US and Switzerland, as I have already spoken on.

I do find the anti-Irish movement within Ireland to be a peculiar one, given that it's a sentiment rarely shared in any other country of their indigenous language. Have a look at somewhere like Sweden, where while the population can speak English - they still maintain Swedish as a primary language. This is duplicated across Scandinavia. Never did they decide to scrap their own language, but the majority of the populations can also speak English.

NewDubliner

dlofnep wrote: »

Ireland is entirely different because we do have, and have always had an indigineous language.

Which a huge majority choose not to speak.

dlofnep

NewDubliner wrote: »

Which a huge majority choose not to speak.

Choice would imply they had the ability to speak it in the first place. That's very misleading.

The fall of the language was not a sudden process, it occurred over a span of a century, with 2 major issues impacting as I have already discussed - Curriculum through English (with no Irish as part of the said curriculum) and the death of the vast majority of Irish speakers on the Island, with less impact on English speaking and more prosperous eastern areas of the Island.

Sand

I do find the anti-Irish movement within Ireland to be a peculiar one, given that it's a sentiment rarely shared in any other country of their indigenous language.

What I find peculiar is that you dont seem to realise that Irish identity is multi faceted and extends to far more than Gaelic identity 500 years ago. All Irish people are Irish. Not all Irish people are Gaelic by any stretch of the imagination. Plenty of Irish people dont share identity with medieval Gaelic culture which at best only forms one strand of modern Irish identity. Hence its not their indigenous langauge. They feel about as passionately about it as they do ... Welsh.


As for why the Irish "movement" encounters such hostility...have you encountered the Irish movement and their "Lets FORCE everyone to speak Gaelic!!!! promotion of the language? The way Irish langauge is leveraged by the state to penalise you? Oh and the linking of language and national identity, or to be more clear national identity and speaking a particular language? Yeah, that really rubs people up the wrong way too.

Mr.Micro

dlofnep wrote: »

I do find the anti-Irish movement within Ireland to be a peculiar one, given that it's a sentiment rarely shared in any other country of their indigenous language. Have a look at somewhere like Sweden, where while the population can speak English - they still maintain Swedish as a primary language. This is duplicated across Scandinavia. Never did they decide to scrap their own language, but the majority of the populations can also speak English.

No wonder many of us hate Irish, taught if that is the right word by brutes and violence when we were young. It is too backward looking as well. The Gaelic speakers think that they are a cut above the rest of us Irish when in reality most of us have moved on and see Irish for what it is pointless and obsolete for the majority.

dlofnep

Sand wrote: »

As for why the Irish "movement" encounters such hostility...have you encountered the Irish movement and their "Lets FORCE everyone to speak Gaelic!!!! promotion of the language? The way Irish langauge is leveraged by the state to penalise you? Oh and the linking of language and national identity, or to be more clear national identity and speaking a particular language? Yeah, that really rubs people up the wrong way too.

Nobody is forced to speak anything. You are perfectly entitled to speak English if you so wish. The language is apart of our curriculum in an attempt to preserve and revive it. I don't see you quimmimg about being forced to study history, or geography as part of a mandatory curriculum?

Nobody has stated that there is a link between language and national identity. I don't believe that by speaking English you are less Irish. I do believe that the Irish language is a fundamental aspect of our culture and heritage and that there is great merit behind preserving it.

dlofnep

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It is too backward looking as well.

How can a language be backward looking? I thought we were over that whole - If you speak Irish, you're a peasant mentality that existed in the 1800's.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The Gaelic speakers think that they area cut above the rest of us Irish

No we don't. Do you think people speak Irish as a means of elevating some sort of faux superiority within society? Perhaps people just like speaking the language because the find it interesting, or are interesting in maintaining it as part of society?

Erin Go Brath

Sand wrote: »

What I find peculiar is that you dont seem to realise that Irish identity is multi faceted and extends to far more than Gaelic identity 500 years ago. All Irish people are Irish. Not all Irish people are Gaelic by any stretch of the imagination. Plenty of Irish people dont share identity with medieval Gaelic culture which at best only forms one strand of modern Irish identity. Hence its not their indigenous langauge. They feel about as passionately about it as they do ... Welsh.


As for why the Irish "movement" encounters such hostility...have you encountered the Irish movement and their "Lets FORCE everyone to speak Gaelic!!!! promotion of the language? The way Irish langauge is leveraged by the state to penalise you? Oh and the linking of language and national identity, or to be more clear national identity and speaking a particular language? Yeah, that really rubs people up the wrong way too.

Mr.Micro wrote:

No wonder many of us hate Irish, taught if that is the right word by brutes and violence when we were young. It is too backward looking as well. The Gaelic speakers think that they are a cut above the rest of us Irish when in reality most of us have moved on and see Irish for what it is pointless and obsolete for the majority.

These two posts are symptomatic of the post colonial inferiority complex of which many Irish people suffer from. A constant degrading of Irish culture, be it language, indigenous games, native music etc. A common thread is a fawning over foreign culture in particular British culture, how their language is better, their games are better etc. While at the same time trying to promote how backward our culture and ways are.

"We were thought it by brutes and violence when we were young"; hmm i don't remember that. I must have went to the only school in Ireland where Irish wasn't beaten into us with a stick, by Father Jack type drunkards.

"As for why the Irish "movement" encounters such hostility...have you encountered the Irish movement and their "Lets FORCE everyone to speak Gaelic!!!! promotion of the language?" Yes the Irish language movement are all fascists styling themselves on the Nazi movement. Prepared to physically beat the language down everyones throat using whatever means necessary.


I again feel Irelands post colonial inferiority complex is at the heart of the issue. Point in case is our former glorious leader Bertie Ahern, when he recently wrote his foreword for a Manchester United book. In any other country this would be unacceptable. In Britain Gordon Brown supports his local club Dunfermline, if he decided to write a foreword for a book on Barcelona, Bayern Munich or another foreign team he would be hounded out of office for being unpatriotic.

Ireland has a proud history of language, poetry, writing, sports, music and culture to be the envy of almost every country in the world. You guys should embrace it!

thebman

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Ireland has a proud history of language, poetry, writing, sports, music and culture to be the envy of almost every country in the world. You guys should embrace it!

lol sorry I'm not ditching the entire Irish culture or history because I don't speak the language.

The language is irrelevant to most people and Irish culture today so I think its sadder that people are trying to hold on to it when it has no hope of becoming the first language in the country at this point if only for economic reasons.

Erin Go Brath

thebman wrote: »

lol sorry I'm not ditching the entire Irish culture or history because I don't speak the language.

Nor should you, but there are plenty who do.

thebman wrote: »

The language is irrelevant to most people and Irish culture today so I think its sadder that people are trying to hold on to it when it has no hope of becoming the first language in the country at this point if only for economic reasons.

I would disagree. So it may never become the main language again thats no reason for jetissoning the language entirely. If the language is continued to be promoted and taught better than previous there is no reason that people can't become bilingual in the future. It would be a sad day for Ireland if the language was killed off for good. Its a beautiful language, and I would especially miss the nuacht agus aimsir cailíní from TG4.

thebman

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Nor should you, but there are plenty who do.


I would disagree. So it may never become the main language again thats no reason for jetissoning the language entirely. If the language is continued to be promoted and taught better than previous there is no reason that people can't become bilingual in the future. It would be a sad day for Ireland if the language was killed off for good. Its a beautiful language, and I would especially miss the nuacht agus aimsir cailíní from TG4.

I disagree with forcing people to learn it or trying to at least. It should be optional as people who don't care should be let not care and not forced for over a decade to attend classes in a subject they have no interest in.

It isn't necessary for life so it has no need to be compulsory. It would be like making French compulsory or Polish. It doesn't make any sense as it isn't a required language for life so why have it be required in education?

So some small minority of people can feel better that the language is being promoted. I don't think that is acceptable.

Mr.Micro

These two posts are symptomatic of the post colonial inferiority complex of which many Irish people suffer from. A constant degrading of Irish culture, be it language, indigenous games, native music etc. A common thread is a fawning over foreign culture in particular British culture, how their language is better, their games are better etc. While at the same time trying to promote how backward our culture and ways are.

Our culture is like most of the western world, consumerism, TV, cinema, fast food, english books mags etc all with an American twist and U2 of course. Most of us embrace our new culture as the other is of grim, poverty, priest ridden and oppressed Ireland and how hard we were done over by the British.

"We were thought it by brutes and violence when we were young"; hmm i don't remember that. I must have went to the only school in Ireland where Irish wasn't beaten into us with a stick, by Father Jack type drunkards

You must have been lucky. I did honours Irish many years ago purely to get a better overall result and as soon as I finished my exams I gave it up for good as I saw it was a waste of time and utterly pointless. All the tales that were taught were of woe, alcoholism, death, emigration and utter misery.

dlofnep

thebman wrote: »

It isn't necessary for life so it has no need to be compulsory. It would be like making French compulsory or Polish. It doesn't make any sense as it isn't a required language for life so why have it be required in education?

French and Polish are not our native languages. There is no onus on us to teach them as mandatory curriculum.

Would you have history, geography and science as optional subjects in school. When does a subject become optional? From primary school? Secondary school?

P. Breathnach

dlofnep wrote: »

French and Polish are not our native languages...

Nor is Irish, except for a very small proportion of our people. It's a specious basis on which to argue for the preservation of the language. And I say that as one who has a reasonable command of the language and a willingness to use it.

SeanW

dlofnep wrote: »

French and Polish are not our native languages. There is no onus on us to teach them as mandatory curriculum.

A lot of people feel the same way about Gaelic.

Would you have history, geography and science as optional subjects in school. When does a subject become optional? From primary school? Secondary school?

Damn straight I would! School should engage their students and prepare them for life - so from secondary school I would prefer to have a lot more elective subjects (i.e. multiple choice pick your favourite) rather than mostly core. I would only leave Maths and English as Core subjects, and have everything else (languages including Irish, Information Technology, different topics of science like chemistry, biology and physics, geography, history, as well as vocational preparations in plumbing, carpentry, electrical, engineering, FAS Safe Pass, Drivers Education programs and so on) all as groups of options.

A problem of course, would be finding the money for all of this, but the short answer to your above question is a resounding YES!

Sand

Nobody is forced to speak anything.

Yes, yes they are. I didnt do Irish past my junior cert because I wanted to. It was because its required to enter most/all Irish universities. And thats just one example.

So yes, while it is correct to say no one is forced to speak Irish, you are forced to know just enough to jump through some ****ing hoops put in place to "encourage" the Irish language.

Nobody has stated that there is a link between language and national identity. I don't believe that by speaking English you are less Irish. I do believe that the Irish language is a fundamental aspect of our culture and heritage and that there is great merit behind preserving it.

Why are you contradicting yourself in practically the same sentence? You know that rule where putting a smiley after calling someone a ****er doesnt make it okay to call them a ****er? Its the almost same for stuff like you just posted.

I don't see you quimmimg about being forced to study history, or geography as part of a mandatory curriculum?

I dont have any problem with Irish being taught. History and Geography are optional. I was not forced to get a certain grade in History or Geography so that I could pursue studies in Economics and Finance. I was forced to get a certain grade in Irish despite it having no bearing or relevance whatsoever on my course.

This is the mental block that makes debate so difficult. Either its compulsory Irish or its back to the penal laws.

I repeat - I have no problem with Irish being taught. Hell, I have an uncle who would probably put you to shame for his conversational Irish and thats great for him. He loves it, he learnt it ( and I think everyone would agree that he did not learn it, nor learn to love it, from the Irish education system) and thats fine.

I simply do not agree with hoops being put in place to "encourage" Irish. I cant speak a word of Irish and I have jumped through every hoop put in place to instill a love of the language in my heart. I am a walking, talking mockery of compulsory Irish much like 99% of Irish people today. The "Irish movement" lobbies for those hoops to be put in place, and like dutiful trick ponies the rest of us jump through them to avoid offending anyones sensibilities, and Irish continues to limp along on life support whilst the "Irish movement" wonders why nobody loves them...

Erin

These two posts are symptomatic of the post colonial inferiority complex of which many Irish people suffer from. A constant degrading of Irish culture, be it language, indigenous games, native music etc. A common thread is a fawning over foreign culture in particular British culture, how their language is better, their games are better etc. While at the same time trying to promote how backward our culture and ways are.

Erin...you are overcompensating.

"As for why the Irish "movement" encounters such hostility...have you encountered the Irish movement and their "Lets FORCE everyone to speak Gaelic!!!! promotion of the language?" Yes the Irish language movement are all fascists styling themselves on the Nazi movement. Prepared to physically beat the language down everyones throat using whatever means necessary.

I dont recall saying that.

You know, if you have to invent things for me to say so you can prove them wrong....maybe youre just terrible at debating?

By the way, funny thing about people disliking the "Irish movement"? Reread your post. It will come to you...

In Britain Gordon Brown supports his local club Dunfermline, if he decided to write a foreword for a book on Barcelona, Bayern Munich or another foreign team he would be hounded out of office for being unpatriotic.

To be honest, I dont think the average British person would give a ****. Whats that about post colonial inferiority complex again?

Ireland has a proud history of language, poetry, writing, sports, music and culture to be the envy of almost every country in the world. You guys should embrace it!

Thing is, where you say Ireland, you really mean Gaelic Ireland. Tony Cascarino is part of Irelands proud history in sports despite admitting himself he has little or no link to "the indigenous people" of Ireland. And yet, everyone in the country would buy him a pint.

NewDubliner

dlofnep wrote: »

Choice would imply they had the ability to speak it in the first place. That's very misleading.

Ok then, a huge majority cannot or will not speak Irish. That's true.

dlofnep

Sand wrote: »

Why are you contradicting yourself in practically the same sentence? You know that rule where putting a smiley after calling someone a ****er doesnt make it okay to call them a ****er? Its the almost same for stuff like you just posted.

I absolutely did not contradict myself in the same sentence, and I take offense that you've read between the lines and given your own faux conclusion.

As for your other points, I think you've made a good argument. I think it's unfortunate that Irish is a mandatory requirement for University, and I don't think it should be.

I think our opinion differs on Irish being a mandatory requirement for secondary. Perhaps a compromise could be made on it being optional for the leaving cert - but I think it would ultimately be a starting point for the entire removal of Irish from our curriculum.

If this poll so far has suggested anything - it still suggests that the majority of the people support the language. I would like to see how it unfolds with maybe 200-300 votes to get a better understanding.

So Sand - What would you like see done.

Totally remove it from our curriculum, leaving the Gaelscoilenna to support the language? Make it optional for leaving cert, or optional for all of secondary? Or perhaps an optional subject in primary.

I would like to know where optional starts for you.

Erin Go Brath

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Our culture is like most of the western world, consumerism, TV, cinema, fast food, english books mags etc all with an American twist and U2 of course. Most of us embrace our new culture as the other is of grim, poverty, priest ridden and oppressed Ireland and how hard we were done over by the British.

Classic Stockholm Syndrome! The battered wife who just can't help but to go back and fawn over the abusive husband. The only way to deal with history is to acknowledge and accept it for good and for bad. Our history has played an important role in where our country is today.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

You must have been lucky. I did honours Irish many years ago purely to get a better overall result and as soon as I finished my exams I gave it up for good as I saw it was a waste of time and utterly pointless. All the tales that were taught were of woe, alcoholism, death, emigration and utter misery.

Here i agree with you to an extent. The syllabus thought when I went to school didn't entice or interest people. Less Peg and more practical oral skills are the way to go. The way the language is taught needs to be 'sexed up' without doubt.

dlofnep

NewDubliner wrote: »

Ok then, a huge majority cannot or will not speak Irish. That's true.

No, that is not true.

They will not because they can not.

NewDubliner

dlofnep wrote: »

They will not because they can not.

Why can't they? Nobody is stopping anyone with the inclination from learning Irish if they really want to. I think the Irish-language enthusiasts are deluding themselves if they think that a warm fuzzy feeling for the language is actually a powerful, repressed yearning.

It's many decades since any law forbade or suppressed Irish. It would now be widely spoken if the majority people of this country really wanted to.

They don't: get over it.

Erin Go Brath

Sand wrote: »

I dont recall saying that.

You wrote: As for why the Irish "movement" encounters such hostility...have you encountered the Irish movement and their "Lets FORCE everyone to speak Gaelic!!!! promotion of the language? to which I used quotes to attribute to you.

Then I added "Yes the Irish language movement are all fascists styling themselves on the Nazi movement. Prepared to physically beat the language down everyones throat using whatever means necessary." which I didn't enclose in quotes to attribute to myself.

I most certainly did not attribute any quotations to you that you did not make.

Sand wrote: »

You know, if you have to invent things for me to say so you can prove them wrong....maybe youre just terrible at debating?

see above

Sand wrote: »

By the way, funny thing about people disliking the "Irish movement"? Reread your post. It will come to you...

A typo should have read the Irish language movement.

Sand wrote: »

To be honest, I dont think the average British person would give a ****. Whats that about post colonial inferiority complex again?

I am certain they would not be impressed if their Prime Minister was promoting foreign sporting teams if there existed equivalent home based teams.

Sand wrote: »

Thing is, where you say Ireland, you really mean Gaelic Ireland. Tony Cascarino is part of Irelands proud history in sports despite admitting himself he has little or no link to "the indigenous people" of Ireland. And yet, everyone in the country would buy him a pint.

Tony Cascarino lied about his heritage in order to get picked for the Irish Soccer team which would benefit his footballing career. I would rather see genuine Irish people or genuine people of Irish extraction who have a love for the country playing for the country. It demeans the whole team otherwise.

Taxipete29

We have our own language in this country which should be cherished and encouraged. I feel most people who dismiss is it as a useless language hated learning it in school as much as I did, and therin lies the problem.
If it was made more interseting to learn maybe people would not grow up hating it.

Very few people in this country had the viable option to use Irish as their first language.I for one lament this fact. Yes we need english, but having our own language gives us a degree of uniqueness. It gives us a sense of what this country once was. It helps us to remember who we once were.

People seem to forget that our tourist industry was built on the phrase
Cead Mile Failte. While those welcomes may have diminished over the years so has our sense of individuality. We are becoming like any other fragmented western society, devoid of culture and purpose.

Im not saying the Irish language is the answer, its not. We will never all speak irish, I dont think I would want to. There is a responsibility however to insure that the language of our past is maintained for future generations who may be more appreciative of our culture and history.

dlofnep

NewDubliner wrote: »

Why can't they?

Because they lack any reasonable level of fluency in the language.

NewDubliner wrote: »

Nobody is stopping anyone with the inclination from learning Irish if they really want to.

Um... work, children, cost of learning perhaps? It cost me €240 euro for a 10 week course.. Not exactly the cheapest means of study. I've devoted a couple of hours a week that I have spare for the past 3 years, and I still can only must basic/intermediate conversational level Irish. It's not easy to learn a language.. and there are often no provisions to learn it in major towns and cities. Up until last year, there were no courses outside of a very basic level course for learning Irish in my city. I had to start up a conversational group to learn it.

You are seriously underestimating the effort required to learn a language, especially after school where you have a 40 hour a week job and a family.

NewDubliner wrote: »

I think the Irish-language enthusiasts are deluding themselves if they think that a warm fuzzy feeling for the language is actually a powerful, repressed yearning.

Don't be silly. Stop trying to exagerate our wording in an attempt to make it easier to downplay it. I never stated that people get a warm fuzzy feeling for the language, but people in the majority of Ireland would not see Irish being removed from our curriculum. I'd stake my car on it if a public referendum came up on the future of the language.

You're deluded if you think everyone is content as you to remove the language from society. It's far from the truth, and that's the reality of it. If people really didn't want Irish in society, they would have had it removed from the curriculum a long time ago.

NewDubliner

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Im not saying the Irish language is the answer, its not. We will never all speak irish, I dont think I would want to. There is a responsibility however to insure that the language of our past is maintained for future generations who may be more appreciative of our culture and history.

I can agree with this. But I won't vote for any party that plans to spend large amounts of money on this.

Shutting down the Dept of the Gaeltact and repealing the provisions of the 'National Languages Act' that mandate that all services must be available in Irish, regardless of demand or cost, would be a very good start to saving the language by restoring the responsibilty for it to the people who wish to speak it.

dlofnep

NewDubliner - What do you say to the results of this poll, with which the overwhelming majority of the people desired for the Irish language within education to be reformed and funding boosted?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054890081

Only 15% objected to Irish within our society.