Differences between training structure in Ireland & UK

Doghouse

Hi, I'm considering applying for graduate medicine programmes in the UK but I'm unclear as to what the situation is there after the 4 years of the course. What is the story with the foundation programme? Is it equivalent to the intern year and then a year as a SHO? Do you start to specialise during the second year? I'd be grateful if anyone had any information on this.

Pete4779

Doghouse wrote: »

Hi, I'm considering applying for graduate medicine programmes in the UK but I'm unclear as to what the situation is there after the 4 years of the course. What is the story with the foundation programme? Is it equivalent to the intern year and then a year as a SHO? Do you start to specialise during the second year? I'd be grateful if anyone had any information on this.

FY1+2 years are the equivalent of the Intern year in ireland. You start specialisation by applying to an ST1-3 scheme in the UK after you have completed FY 2.

SHO / Registrar terminology no longer exists in UK. You are ST1-6 (Specialist Trainee year 1 - 6). It is still called SHO in Ireland. You cannot apply to SHO Ireland posts until being fully registered, which is after you finish FY1 and FY2. The new GMC system is having a medical "License" like in the US. Ireland has ****ed this up entirely, so basically just avoid it completely.

drzhivago

Pete4779 wrote: »

FY1+2 years are the equivalent of the Intern year in ireland. You start specialisation by applying to an ST1-3 scheme in the UK after you have completed FY 2.

SHO / Registrar terminology no longer exists in UK. You are ST1-6 (Specialist Trainee year 1 - 6). It is still called SHO in Ireland. You cannot apply to SHO Ireland posts until being fully registered, which is after you finish FY1 and FY2. The new GMC system is having a medical "License" like in the US. Ireland has ****ed this up entirely, so basically just avoid it completely.

That is a little harsh

Ireland has one system
UK has another

UK didnt exactly crown itself in glory when MMC began, they had a CAO type system where people applied for the posts of preference online

website didnt appear to be programmed correctly or the traffic caused server errors and many were not offered interviews for what they applied for and were offered interviews in things they had not applied for


f you go to Med school in UK you need to be thinking in 3rd year do I want to stay in UK for post grad training or do I want to come back to Ireland

If you stay in UK initially you must be there for at least 1 year before you can come back and ensure that the posts you do during taht time will be sufficient to equate to what an intern would do over here, however you would not have finished your UK requirements for Full registration and it is unlikely you would get such registration easily there in future

Realistically then you are looking at 2 years over there, 4 or 5 months in limbo doing locums as the changeover cycles are not in sync

Then you apply for whatever SHO jobs you are interested in here

It all depends on what career path you want to take afterwards

RobFowl

I think GP training in Ireland is fairly good once you can get on a scheme.
The UK based system is more linear regarding specialist training once you can get a training number (very competitive in some specialities).
At present I think it'll become alot more difficult to move from one system to the other mid way though training, so I'd say you'll have to choose which system and prettymuch stick with it.
The 48 hour week and its fall out may actually force a reorganisation of the Irish system but I'm anticipating a lot of uncertainty for 2-3 years.

drzhivago

RobFowl wrote: »

I think GP training in Ireland is fairly good once you can get on a scheme.
The UK based system is more linear regarding specialist training once you can get a training number (very competitive in some specialities).
At present I think it'll become alot more difficult to move from one system to the other mid way though training, so I'd say you'll have to choose which system and prettymuch stick with it.
The 48 hour week and its fall out may actually force a reorganisation of the Irish system but I'm anticipating a lot of uncertainty for 2-3 years.

have to agree the next few years are unpredictable and a lot could change for better or for worse

Doghouse

Thanks everyone for your help! That makes things a lot clearer. I'm interested in specialising in psychiatry (I'm currently a psychologist but working in psychiatric research and am much more interested in the medical side of things so am considering retraining. I've worked in a few hospitals in different departments over the years so I think I've a pretty good idea what I'd be letting myself in for).

Chunky Monkey

http://www.foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/pages/home

drzhivago

Doghouse wrote: »

Thanks everyone for your help! That makes things a lot clearer. I'm interested in specialising in psychiatry (I'm currently a psychologist but working in psychiatric research and am much more interested in the medical side of things so am considering retraining. I've worked in a few hospitals in different departments over the years so I think I've a pretty good idea what I'd be letting myself in for).

So your going to be a Dr Dr DR

PHD Medical doctor and potentially MD in your further psych research once qualified that will be an interesting business card

Doghouse

drzhivago wrote: »

So your going to be a Dr Dr DR

PHD Medical doctor and potentially MD in your further psych research once qualified that will be an interesting business card

Haha no, I'm not doing a PhD at the moment. But yes, I will have an interesting business card all the same!

drzhivago

Doghouse wrote: »

Haha no, I'm not doing a PhD at the moment. But yes, I will have an interesting business card all the same!

apologies
i think I had a brain ***t and crossed a few posts there

Someone esle was asking about changing careers from psychology to medicine having done a PHD
I think i am tired

Lassiecomehome

As an Irish person who trained under the NHS and is starting my F1 post this August I know how you feel, I wasn't sure when to attempt a return to Ireland and I found the Irish Medical Organisation very unhelpful with regard to the Irish application process. The MMC was a shambles for the first 2 years but for my year and last year the applications ran smoothly. Although they're far from ideal I don't think there is an ideal application system and the Foundation Application process certainly took the pressure off when it came to finals. I was offered my first choice of job for 2 years in January and sat finals in February and May knowing that I just had to 'pass', no pressure to come top of my class to get my first choice job.

The foundation years are pretty much analagous to the Irish system; F1=intern, F2=SHO. In F1 most people will study 6mths medicine, 6mths surgery with F2 for specialities. You get full registration after F1 and as far as I understand you can then apply to work in Ireland although I'm happy with my specialities in F2 so am going to stay up for both years. Application for specialist training (ST) takes place after F2 and the time spent in ST depends on the speciality. It's a great system if you know what you want to do which I do, not such a great system if you're ambiguous. I hope that helps, best of luck with the application!

drzhivago

Lassiecomehome wrote: »

As an Irish person who trained under the NHS and is starting my F1 post this August I know how you feel, I wasn't sure when to attempt a return to Ireland and I found the Irish Medical Organisation very unhelpful with regard to the Irish application process. The MMC was a shambles for the first 2 years but for my year and last year the applications ran smoothly. Although they're far from ideal I don't think there is an ideal application system and the Foundation Application process certainly took the pressure off when it came to finals. I was offered my job for 2 years in January and sat finals in February and May knowing that I just had to 'pass', no pressure to come top of my class to get my first choice job (which I did).

disappointed to hear your troubles
I have been in touch with a number of students over the last year in your exact position they were here on electives and kept in touch wondering how to apply

Unfortunately here there is no central system yet, (it is coming apparently like the end of the recession)

Students generally apply to the hospital they trained in and if they dont get placed enter the merry go round to places that have vacancies

A very inefficient and stressful way to do this

Dont think the IMO have any involvement directly but Medical council do

Universities have links to certain hospitals, up to now a student attached to another university would not be considered until all the 1st Universities candidates have been sorted, a job protection scheme sort of.

Coming from outside the outside (NHS) you would have found it very difficult although I think the rules changed a few years ago when some angry parents in cork found out their daughter would not be considered for an intern posts in her home town after studying in UK, cue meeting with minister etc.



[/QUOTE] The foundation years are pretty much analagous to the Irish system; F1=intern, F2=SHO. In F1 most people will study 6mths medicine, 6mths surgery with F2 for specialities. You get full registration after F1 and as far as I understand you can then apply to work in Ireland although I'm happy with my specialities in F2 so am going to stay up for both years. Application for specialist training (ST) takes place after F2 and the time spent in ST depends on the speciality. It's a great system if you know what you want to do which I do, not such a great system if you're ambiguous. I hope that helps, best of luck with the application![/QUOTE]

Ireland has changed to 3* 4 month modules now I think not 6 and 6 so that may be different you would need to write to medical council about that,

what is the bottle neck like from F2 to ST, if you re unsuccessful there where do you go next are there holding jobs

Lassiecomehome

disappointed to hear your troubles
I have been in touch with a number of students over the last year in your exact position they were here on electives and kept in touch wondering how to apply

Unfortunately here there is no central system yet, (it is coming apparently like the end of the recession)

Students generally apply to the hospital they trained in and if they dont get placed enter the merry go round to places that have vacancies

A very inefficient and stressful way to do this

Dont think the IMO have any involvement directly but Medical council do

Universities have links to certain hospitals, up to now a student attached to another university would not be considered until all the 1st Universities candidates have been sorted, a job protection scheme sort of.

Coming from outside the outside (NHS) you would have found it very difficult although I think the rules changed a few years ago when some angry parents in cork found out their daughter would not be considered for an intern posts in her home town after studying in UK, cue meeting with minister etc.

Thanks for that, that's literally the clearest explaination I've had of the process. There'll never be a situation where everyone is happy though.

Ireland has changed to 3* 4 month modules now I think not 6 and 6 so that may be different you would need to write to medical council about that,

what is the bottle neck like from F2 to ST, if you re unsuccessful there where do you go next are there holding jobs

I didn't know the training structure had changed here. What I ment was that there isn't much difference between and F2 and 1st year SHO in terms of responsibilities, experience, qualifications etc. Although most F1s do 6mths medicine and 6mths surgery, there were a large number of jobs which had 3x4mth placements in F1. I'm afraid I'm no help with regard to the bottle neck. I know there have been situations in the past where doctors were left jobless for a year because they didn't get onto a training scheme but I don't know what the circumstances were. To be honest it's been about a year since I last heard a horror story like that but I don't know many STs so that could be the reason! If I find out more when I start work I'll post again.