Advert for Broadband.

watty

This is about an advert for Broadband, so please don't move to Midband



If any of these areas have Broadband or O2, Meteor or Vodafone 3G (even if EDGE only, but not GSM/GPRS) then NBS is not bringing Broadband, as you have what "3 Ireland" are bring already (3G Mobile Phone Network).

Look out for your own local paper or Billboards and see if this is offering you something you already have!

Should we complain to ASAI?

If 3 Ireland can advertise their Mobile Phone Network like this, what category is two way Satellite @ 3Mbps?


For those that have not been following the plot, the NBS was awarded to 3 who are simply using using their Mobile Phone network. 3 happened to need to do a major rollout right now anyway. Analysis Mason get €400 per Electoral District covered to "verify" by base station stats (which is no verification at all) that the ED is 95% population covered (indoor modems). If you are in an ED with more than 60% BB coverage then the Scheme does not apply.
If your ED is NBS covered and you get the modem (USB 3G/HSPA stick) and it doesn't "work", up to 5% are 8% are allowed Satellite (VSAT), but it's a service from Avanti which doesn't exist and may never exist.
As users are added and people use the mobile phones on the mast the speed quickly drops and latency increases, so 1MBps may become only 100kbps after 6 months of growth.
http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/CompareHSPAandFixed-v4.html
You may not even connect reliably after 3 to 6months:

(In reality the mast usually has 3 pizza / petal shaped sectors that slightly overlap, the diagram applies to one sector.)

The claimed up to speed applies to less than 15% of the area served by mast

With 10 simultaneous traffic users, a user more than 1/2 the mast range (75% of area) will likely get a speed under 400kbps on a 14.4Mbps peak mast, can easily be under 150kbps. (3 claim a minimum of 1.2MBps for NBS)
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055115306
Latency is 80ms (really perfect signal, one user) to about 2000ms (3 claim 120ms for NBS)
Real Broadband is typically 50ms max.
Satellite is 790ms.

The phone traffic has priority.
The number of masts is less than 1/4 of what would be needed to meet contention requirements even at 1Mbps, even if only 30% signed up.
Is this why the the Advert coyly does not say what Minimum speed and Latency Broadband is?
Why does the Advert neglect to mention that the NBS "Broadband coming to your area" is in fact just a Mobile Phone mast and the modem is a regular "on the go" Mobile Internet Dongle rather than fixed Broadband that can be easily shared to the household or small office?

CAP
Real Broadband has a 20Gbyte to 250Gbyte (30G to 100G typical) Cap or FUP over a month or rolling 30 days. Typically if you go over Cap you are throttled. The 3 Mobile Internet product is 12G Cap download and 3G Cap upload and excess traffic is about €50 a Gigabyte (retail, wholesale appears to be €250 a Gigabyte). So the Cap on the NBS is not at all like Broadband.

jor el

I've seen a similar poster in Tipperary. Very misleading, but then the same is true for all the mobile operators, they shouldn't be allowed to call it broadband.

Our man in Havana

Same here in Laois. I already has o2 both 3G and EDGE.

The NBS propaganda leaflet is full of lies and untruths. They promise stuff that no 3G operator can deliver.

Also the Eifel Tower is not located beside some back road in rural Ireland.

Cabaal

Saw one of these adverts in the middle of Kilkenny City, disgraceful, was planning on posting up a photo of it but not had the time yet to take a photo of it

Random

Isn't this the thing where they'd putting a sattellite dish on your house for free if you can't avail of their normal service?

jor el

Random wrote: »

Isn't this the thing where they'd putting a sattellite dish on your house for free if you can't avail of their normal service?

And that would be for the satellite that's still on the ground.

watty

Only free install. If there is ever a satellite for it.

The Falcon 9 rocket has never flown.
The satellite is a prototype and not finished.

Our man in Havana

Lads, I has bad feeling that the ASAI will tell us to go away because the ad is not for a commerical venture and is government sponsored.

jbkenn

Bond-007 wrote: »

Also the Eifel Tower is not located beside some back road in rural Ireland.

Thats not the Eiffel tower, thats the first of the 160 towers 3 are building for the NBS
jbkenn

watty

Sure it's for a commercial venture. It's simply 3's network. On 3's 3G licence. Over half the €79M they get will go on Satellite (if it's ever launched). The NBS users getting the same price and service on 3's phone network as any other 3 customer. The rest of the €220 money 3 is spending is their own.

Is the Government allowed to sponser misleading Adverts for a commercial venture?

Most of 3's revenue will come from voice calls in these so called NBS roll-out areas.

Our man in Havana

I shall do up a complaint and see what happens.

dub45

And it doesnt warn people that they will have to spend hours on the phone (and on boards of course!) Complaining!

jor el

What newspaper was that ad in, watty? We'll need it for the ASAI complaint.

watty

AFAIK the advert is customised to each area, in many local papers. That one was in the Limerick Post, 30th May 2009. I complained to ASAI via their online form.
Variations of it on large billboards too, as mentioned above.

Our man in Havana

In the case of that ad, do any of those areas already have real broadband or existing 3G/EDGE services?

jbkenn

Bond-007 wrote: »

In the case of that ad, do any of those areas already have real broadband or existing 3G/EDGE services?

All of them, covered by FWA

jbkenn

watty

Are 3's claims here 100% clear and not misleading?
http://www.three.ie/nbs/faqs.htm

* As part of the NBS contract 3 will deliver the following minimum speeds at launch at the edge of cell. Average speeds for customers will be higher.

o Minimum download speed is 1.2Mbps while maximum download speed is 5Mbps
o Minimum upload speed is 200Kbps while maximum upload speed is 1.8Mbps

3 have no LTE licence nor any LTE spectrum, nor will any 3G/HSPA modem work on LTE.

3’s network is also ready to be upgraded to LTE or Long Term Evolution which is the next step in mobile broadband technology.

watty

Areas that 3 / NBS claim they are bringing broadband to.
If areas have 3, O2, Meteor or Vodafone 3G (even if EDGE only, but not GSM/GPRS) then NBS is not bringing anything new.

If you have fixed Broadband already, then the NBS is not bringing you Broadband as you already have a superior service:

http://www.three.ie/nbs/live-areas.htm

Areas where NBS rollout has started

* Kerry
o Rathmore
* Galway
o Clifden
o Woodford
* Kilkenny
o Inistioge

Areas coming soon (After 30th June 2009).
* Carlow
o Coonogue
o Hacketstown
o Haroldstown
o Tiknock
* Clare
o Ballyeighter
o Loughea
o Coolmeen
o Killanena
o Kyle
o Kilfiddane
o Clooney
o Killuran
o Liscasey
o Abbey
* Cork
o Gortnascreeny
o Derragh
o Ballyhoolahan
o Candroma
o Dunmanus
o Templemolaga
o Dunbeacon
o Milltown
o Ardskeagh
o Rathcool
o Caherduggan
o Williamstown
o Castlemagner
o Teerelton
o Milford
o Boherboy
* Galway
o Colmanstown
o Ballycahalan
o Kilchreest
o Doonloughan
o Cloonkeen
o Laurencetown
o Killinny
o Cahermore
o Tiaquin
o Kilconierin
o Woodford
o Eyrecourt
o Hillsbrook
o Killeen
o Kiltullagh
o Claretuam
o Bunowen
o Clifden
* Kerry
o Cloontubbrid
o Kilnanare
* Kildare
o Cloncurry
o Feighcullen
* Kilkenny
o Castlegannon
o Pleberstown
o Freaghana
o Famma
o Kells
o The Rower
* Laois
o Nealstown
o Caher
o Marymount
o Garrymore
o Clonmore
o Cuffsborough
o Kyle
o Grantstown
o Donore
o Errill
o Ballyroan
o Emo
* Limerick
o Dunmoylan West
o Mohernagh
o Knocknascrow
o Particles
o Riversdale
o Rooskagh
o Kilbeheny
o Caherelly
o Darragh
o Griston
o Duntryleague
o Bulgaden
o Cullane
o Anglesborough
o Coolrus
o Ardpatrick
o Glensharrold
o Glenbrohane
o Ballymacshaneboy
o Glenagower
o Kilteely
o Cahercorney
o Galbally
o Knockainy
o Ballylanders
o Emlygrennan
o Templeglentan
o Knocklong
o Ardagh
o Hospital
o Kilfinnane
* Longford
o Doory
o Ardagh West
o Kilglass
o Kilcommock
* Mayo
o Croaghmoyle
o Rathoma
o Kilfian East
o Kilfian South
o Glenhest
o Caraun
o Dalgan
o Ballynagoraher
o Fortland
o Kilmaclasser
o Ballysakeery
o Derryloughan
o Clogher
o Carrowmore
o Croaghpatrick
o Islandeady
o Ardnaree North
o Crossmolina South
o Mount Falcon
o Newport East
* Offaly
o Gorteen
o Ettagh
o Bracknagh
o Killeigh
* Tipperary
o Rodus
o Cullen
o Shronell
o Killavinoge
o Burncourt
o Lattin
o Coolagarranroe
o Latteragh
o Clonbeg
o Emly
o Templetouhy
* Wexford
o Carnagh
o Taghmon
o Ardcolm
o Ballyhuskard
* Wicklow
o Rath
o Arklow Rural
o Humewood
o Rathdangan
o Talbotstown
o Killinure
o Ennereilly
o Dunganstown East
o Ballyarthur
o Dunganstown South

Please make a post on the thread if you already have Mobile or real Broadband in these areas.
If they put Literature through the door or localised adverts in your local paper can you save them and let us know?
If this service is mis-sold it will delay real broadband provision in your area.

PogMoThoin

I can't see how they can state a minimum speed of 1.2Mbps, lies, they've no way of controlling this

Having a look at Mayo which I'm very familiar with, most areas listed have FWA, I'll go through them later

cowboy1981

watty wrote: »

Areas that 3 / NBS claim they are bringing broadband to.
If you have 3, Meteor, O2, Vodaphone Mobile Data / Phone coverage, already, then the NBS is bring nothing new.

If you have fixed Broadband already, then the NBS is not bringing you Broadand as you already have a superior service:

http://www.three.ie/nbs/live-areas.htm

Avoca in Wicklow is a good example. It already has eircom DSL, yet NBS claims to have brought Broadband to this Electoral District (It is Green on 3 coverage map). The Electoral district stretches from Woodenbridge in the South through Avoca to Redcross in the North. According to 3's own coverage map, only the area around Redcross has coverage. Most of the population live in Avoca, where 3 have no coverage. My guess is that <10% of the population in the Avoca ED have coverage.

clohamon

watty wrote: »

If any of these areas have Broadband or O2, Meteor or Vodafone (even if EDGE only) then NBS is not bringing Broadband, as you have what "3 Ireland" are bring already (3G Mobile Phone Network).

The areas mentioned refer to specific EDs in the NBS. So at least nominally each area should have no more than 40% total coverage from other providers.


Coolrus 127049
Emlygrennan 127068
Darragh 127057
Glenbrohane 127076
Glensharrold 127078
Kilfinnane 127090
Particles 127119
Glenagower 127075
Ardagh 127007

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/0974C807-C881-4E8B-9ED9-3010DA0B2BBC/0/Limerick.pdf

drunkmonkey

watty wrote: »

Areas that 3 / NBS claim they are bringing broadband to.
If you have 3, Meteor, O2, Vodaphone Mobile Data / Phone coverage, already, then the NBS is bring nothing new.

Watty that's not correct, i've driven a good few of areas and yes there may be data coverage but it's not High Speed, suggesting there's no difference between them is misleading.

I think everyone should hold off on complaing untill we see how this plays out over the next few weeks, i'm as sceptical as the next fella but I think it's just a little to early to start complaining.

It'll be interesting to hear feedback from NBS customers over the next few weeks, hopefully it's not all doom and gloom and services really start to improve for these people.

watty

Thanks for pointing that out. My fingers running ahead of brain

The word EDGE in first post shows I was thinking of 3G rather than GSM/GPRS. The later post of areas I made it worse by leaving out "EDGE".

Why EDGE?
At 10 users simultaneously it can give the same per user speed as 14Mbps iHSPA at the cell edge.

However contrary to what 3 say, Nokia suggest the minimum connect speed on iHSPA is about 50kbps. The operator can of course refuse connection if the speed would drop below 1.2Mbps. That would unfortunately equate to less than 3 people simultaneously downloading in a sector, typically.

GSM speeds
GSM 14.4kbps
dual slot GSM 28.8kbps (old N9200i)
GPRS is 12kbps up to 70kbps
EDGE 50 kbps upto 245kbps (though 1.2Mbps is feasible simultaneously for 10 users in 5MHz of GSM spectrum)

3G speeds
3G 12kbps up to 350kbps
HSPA etc 50kbps upto 14.4Mbps. Its physically not possible to get much better than 2Mbps TOTAL sector throughput with a number of users across the sector area. Thus if a mast has 3 sectors a mast area (cell) can only have about 5 users at 1.2Mbps. The total number of subscribers then can't be more than 180 for the 36:1 contention. If a 1/10th of those customers are on at peak time then your speed can be 1.2 / 3.6 = 330k. Except It's W-CDMA based, the system loses capacity as users are added. some will not connect. The speed with all simultaneous will drop to about 150kbps at peak time if sold to 36:1 contention! For a 2km radius cell it's about 25sq km area.

If a 30% of the 220,000 addresses sign up = 66,000 subscribers. Assuming the mast really can manage an average throughput of 2Mbps per sector, then you need 367 masts for the NBS area!. Given the rural nature, almost entirely indoor usage and cell size, it's possible that average cell throughput at peak times could be 1Mbps. This is all based on Nokia and other 3G vendor publish figures. Not hyped marketing claims. So in reality for 1.2Mbps minimum indoor coverage for 30% takeup of broadband (That's what UPC gets of "passed" houses, maybe a bit less), you could need about 700 masts. (how many for Kerry )

IF NO PHONE CALLS. Phone traffic get priority and reduces the data capacity.

With the capacity they are installing they need to have less than 10% take up and no voice traffic to scrape near the claimed performance.

Even so many people will experience cell breathe which drops connections. Coverage can be up to 20dB poorer indoors if your window doesn't face a mast. Random things clump. So some sectors will have only a few and others overloaded. This is less likely with fixed wireless systems that might have 16x to 40x the sector average throughput.

drunkmonkey

eh no worries, all these frequencies were bombarded with are starting to take there toll...

should be an interesting few weeks:)

agree, the ad sucks.....

watty

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I think everyone should hold off on complaing untill we see how this plays out over the next few weeks, i'm as sceptical as the next fella but I think it's just a little to early to start complaining.

It's nearly too late. We are complaining about false / misleading advertising that hides the fact this is just a Mobile Phone rollout.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It'll be interesting to hear feedback from NBS customers over the next few weeks, hopefully it's not all doom and gloom and services really start to improve for these people.

It's of the nature that the early adopters will see the claimed performance. But the system can't sustain growth. Six months to a years time is too late to complain about misleading adverts.

It's only "high speed" compared with GPRS. We have the only Government in the world selling this as Broadband. The UK Government has decided that 2Mbps is a minimum for Universal Broadband and that 3G/HSPA can't reliably provide even 1Mbps per user.

PogMoThoin

We need to complain now, not in 6 months. These adverts are lies, totally misleading. You wouldn't believe the amount of country people I meet who actually believe Eamon Ryan and think he's doing a fine job. Maybe if we throw a spanner in the works and the sattelite stays on the ground we can save the taxpayer 80million. Just imagine what a FWA provider could do with just one of those millions and bring REAL broadband to more areas than they cover already. Most of these areas have FWA already, some have even Dsl.

Our man in Havana

I would love to have FWA.

My ED is Laois is on their list. It is already served by 3 themselves, Vodafone and o2 of which I am currently using.

drunkmonkey

watty wrote: »

It's only "high speed" compared with GPRS. We have the only Government in the world selling this as Broadband. The UK Government has decided that 2Mbps is a minimum for Universal Broadband and that 3G/HSPA can't reliably provide even 1Mbps per user.

The SLA says they have to provide at least 1.2mb, now they either can or they can't.

Forget about the ad it's not the issue here, it's all about the service, every mobile broadband ad is misleading. I've never got 7.2mb from my o2 modem neither have I got 7mb from my 7mb eircom connection.

Please can we stop with the complaints until we see how this goes and at least one person who availed of the NBS can let us know what it's like.

Is there an NBS customer in the audience?

Our man in Havana

Sorry, my complaint is already in.

watty

It would be irresponsible not to highlight a national advertising campain that is totally misleading.

The actual performance of the 3G/NBS rollout isn't actually relevant to this complaint to ASAI. Even if 3 meet their obligations, I believe the advert is misleading as it nowhere mentions this is a Phone system, the NBS spec for latency and Cap doesn't meet Broadband expectations. How many films can you watch in a month on a 12G cap? Nor do they mention that if you can't get a signal you would be offered VSAT (two way satellite) service on a satellite that may never exist. With minimum 790ms latency if it ever did exist and an even lower Cap.

The advert at the least should mention 12G download cap, 3G Mobile Modem via phone masts, 1.2Mbps speed and 120ms latency. They imply something better than what the NBS spec actually is.

It's a whole different can of worms, nothing to to with this Advert campaign and ASAI that the NBS as specified, is unlikely to deliver what in claims as customers added. Also a 3rd set of issue the fact it is NOT a universal provision as originally claimed and a 4th set of issues that 1.2Mbps, 120ms & 12G Cap is a miserable spec for Broadband even if 3 could deliver.

The real horror of what the NBS is delivering will take a year or so to be fully apparent. No point asking the opinion of random people today. Also those that can't get it by definition won't be NBS customers! You need coverage tests in every area. Anecdotal evidence at this stage would be a totally skewed picture of performance and tell us nothing about true coverage.

My youngest lad had a spree last week on Videos and ate about 8Gbyte in 4 days... If he was on NBS would they warn or disconnect or throttle when over cap? Or do you get a bill for an extra €400 to €800? It's a Mobile Phone system. We know how many of them handle over Cap. In our case I knew we had a problem from our traffic monitor and the same day an email from "support" warning us that we are approaching Cap (6G left so not throttled). Even if over Cap I have no charge or disconnect, just Throttled to ISDN/Mobile speeds till 80% of Cap again. (His laptop mysteriously has no WiFi card now).

drunkmonkey

watty wrote: »

It would be irresponsible not to highlight a national advertising campain that is totally misleading.

The actual performance of the 3G/NBS rollout isn't actually relevant to this complaint to ASAI. Even if 3 meet their obligations, I believe the advert is misleading as it nowhere mentions this is a Phone system,).

The advert is not misleading (broadband/midband : ) ) it's only to create awarness, it's not making any claims, All details can be found out if you call the freephone number mentioned in the add. This is a special hotline just for NBS customers. As part of the contract 3 are not allowed to advertise their phone system as part of the NBS, that's why you don't and won't see any mention of it.

as for the 12GB cap it's a 15GB cap which is the best offer for mobile broadband at the moment, to compare like for like:

o2 12mt contract, €25pm - 7.5GB cap
Vodafone 12mt, €19.99pm - 5GB cap
Meteor 12mt contract - €16.99pm - 5GB cap
Eircom 12mt contract - €19.99pm - 10GB cap

It would be good to see the prices for current Satellite services if someone has them to hand?

Our man in Havana

Seeing as I could already get 3 in my area, they are offering nothing new.

As part of the contract 3 are not allowed to advertise their phone system as part of the NBS, that's why you don't and won't see any mention of it.

Ah, but to get this NBS service you have to visit a 3 store or other mobile shop where they can advertise their phone service. The provision of the service should be strictly by mail order only in order to avoid this scenario.

drunkmonkey

Bond-007 wrote: »

Seeing as I could already get 3 in my area, they are offering nothing new.


Ah, but to get this NBS service you have to visit a 3 store or other mobile shop where they can advertise their phone service. The provision of the service should be strictly by mail order only in order to avoid this scenario.

So we shoud cut irish businesses out of the loop entirely and let the whole process be managed by a call center full of numb nuts in india, great thinking.

As for not offering anything new, have you tried it out, there is something new being offered, i'm not saying anything as i've not seen it in operation yet but there is defianalty something new.

watty

@drunkmonkey You are being misleading


The Mobile prices and Cap are not relevant. Nor is satellite.

The NBS is claiming Broadband is coming to specific areas.

Some of these already have real Broadband
Some already have 3!
Others already have 02, Meteor/eircom or Vodafone So called "high speed" data.

The Cap is 1/2 to 1/4 typical broadband
The latency is typically 10 times typical broadband
Phone calls get priority.
It's a Mobile phone rollout. Everyone would get exactly the same thing from 3 (other thana Satellite, and 3's doesn't exist) if the NBS didn't exist. In fact if you sign up to the 3 Mobile for 18 months instead of NBS for 12 months you save €49
http://www.three.ie/broadband/nbs.htm
http://www.three.ie/broadband/paymonthly.htm

As part of the contract 3 are not allowed to advertise their phone system as part of the NBS, that's why you don't and won't see any mention of it.

Total Weasel. 3's logo is on the advert. 3 offer both almost identically on their web site
The NBS adverts could easily say it's 3G/HSPA Mobile technology.

The Advert talks about watching films. You won't watch many and do all the other stuff on 3G/HSPA with a 12G cap.
(It may be 15G total, but in fine print it's 12G down and 3G up.)

From http://www.three.ie/nbs/faqs.htm

What is the difference between NBS customers and Non-NBS customers?
NBS customers are customers located in NBS coverage areas defined in the NBS contract entered into between 3 and the Department of Communication, Energy and Natural Resources (DCENR). These customers will receive broadband under the National Broadband Scheme. Non-NBS customers are in all other areas outside defined NBS coverage areas.

Plain English and looking at prices?
1) Free modem and 18months non-NBS,
2) €49 Modem and 12 months NBS.
You have to get a 3rd party Router to have more than one PC or WiFi. A family or a small office can share real broadband. It's pretty rubbish sharing 3G/HSPA to small office or a family.
http://www.three.ie/nbs/faqs.htm

What product will be offered under the NBS?
3 will extend its network to provide mobile wireless broadband services into NBS areas. The mobile wireless broadband service (HSPA), will have a minimum download speed of 1.2mbps, a minimum upload speed of 200kpbs, a maximum contention ratio of 36:1, a latency of 120 milliseconds and a 15gigabit (12 down, 3 up) inclusive monthly download allowance limit.

In recognition of the fact that some areas will be very difficult to reach using standard infrastructure, in a limited number of cases 3 will make available a satellite product, which may cover up to 8% of the NBS areas. The satellite product will have a minimum download speed of 1mbs, a minimum upload speed of 128kbps, a maximum contention ratio of 48:1, latency of 800 milliseconds and a 11gigabit (10 down, 1 up) inclusive monthly download allowance limit.

It's not a dedicated Mobile Data like Digiweb's. It's a 3G Mobile phone system pretty much like eircom/Meteor, O2 and Vodafone are selling. (iHSPA and even 21Mbps is a marginal change to overall cell average throughput compared to 3.6Mbps HSDPA. Meteor's system is nearly identical).


Prices of Satellite are irrelevent on NBS because it doesn't exist yet and may not exist even by 2011. This one does exist already Nationwide for €35 a month, 3.6Mbps/384kbps Speed 2.4Gbyte Cap (basic, 12 G Cap is €132)

Also the pricing of ALL the Mobile operators is a Customer Grab exercise. For the same sales revenue comparing the voice packages and Data packages, the Data costs them 150 to 500 times more! They are all doing Mobile Data at a loss. Expect prices to go only one way in long term.

The ONLY licence 3 Ireland have relating to NBS is their Mobile Phone licence
see http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59549725&postcount=4

http://www.comreg.ie/radio_spectrum/search.541.874.10003.0.rslicensing.html
Scroll down to click on 3's licence

drunkmonkey

3's mobile broadband offering and 3' NBS offering are 2 differient services with 2 different SLA's, don't confuse the two. There different product offerings. You can't get and 18mt contract and a free modem if your an NBS customer.

If eircom / digiweb won the NBS there logo would also be on the ad and they 2 offer more than one serive.

If 2 modems are required for a small office or family it's still at a good price point, eircom line + rental is still 20% more expensive even if it was available.

3 can't up the price of the contract after 12mts, o2, vodafone , meteor can do what they like 3 are restrained because of the NBS.

jazus that Digiweb is serioulsy expensive if you need a decent download allowance.

You keep calling it a mobile phone rollout, it's not one 3 have a choice in, these are under populated areas not exactly the best place to start rolling out services.

watty

It's the same price (including initial setup on plan3). Same Modem, Same masts, Same Technology, same speeds, same cap, same over Cap €50 a Gigabyte same backhaul, same latency as NBS Identical Products including initial cost

According to 3 Licence they must allow the public phone calls to use any of their masts and any normal wholesale service must be able to use their whole network.

Read the license. I can call it a mobile phone roll out because that is the only thing 3 Ireland have a license for and that is in reality exactly what it is.

I have 30 Gbyte Cap, 8M down / 1M up and < 30ms latency for €40 a month. eircom is the most expensive line rental in the world. That can't continue. Look at Metro & UPC prices. Digiweb Metro is one of the lower Cap decent Broadband packages.

An extra 15Gbyte on 3 Mobile or NBS would cost €750 a month, to have 30Gbyte. AFAIK you can download over 100Gbyte on eircom before they get nervy. About 100G to 250G on UPC depending on package.

The 3 service is only €19.95 because they want customers. They make the money from Mobile phone. Which by terms of their license must work on all the so called Mobile Phone masts. I'd agree maybe the least useful coverage masts might not get done without NBS, maybe 10% to 20% of rollout.

Because of the way W-CDMA works, having two modems rather than sharing one via a router could actually reduce overall performance. if one does 5Mbps and you have a 2nd in same room downloading at same time, they will get about 1.8Mbps to 2.2Mbps each or less and latency may rise. Share a single Modem via router and latency is unchanged and two simultaneous streams get 2.5Mbps each.

Our man in Havana

So let me play devils advocate here for a moment.

Say I go into a carphonewarehouse etc and ask for this NBS yoke and when I get home find it is crap i.e. the same as 3 are at present would I be allowed out of the contract?

jor el

drunkmonkey wrote: »

3's mobile broadband offering and 3' NBS offering are 2 differient services with 2 different SLA's, don't confuse the two. There different product offerings. You can't get and 18mt contract and a free modem if your an NBS customer.

No, it'll be the exact same thing. The pricing may be different, but the technology and network will be one.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If 2 modems are required for a small office or family it's still at a good price point, eircom line + rental is still 20% more expensive even if it was available.

2 modems in the same location will immediately cut the available bandwidth for each modem. This would be counter intuitive.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

3 can't up the price of the contract after 12mts, o2, vodafone , meteor can do what they like 3 are restrained because of the NBS.

I don't see the relevance of that. Prices for mobile midband are coming down, not going up, and with increased competition in the market, they're not likely to increase.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

jazus that Digiweb is serioulsy expensive if you need a decent download allowance.

As opposed to Three's 150euro per GB over the cap?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You keep calling it a mobile phone rollout, it's not one 3 have a choice in, these are under populated areas not exactly the best place to start rolling out services.

Three had a choice when they tendered for the NBS. Now that they won the contract, there are conditions to adhere to, conditions they knew when they tendered. Again, I fail to see the relevance of the comment.

Three are expending their mobile phone network, a network that already supports data, nothing more. They're not bringing anything new, they're just going to cover a little more area with a mobile network that's already under pressure.

Time will tell.

Bond-007 wrote:

Say I go into a carphonewarehouse etc and ask for this NBS yoke and when I get home find it is crap i.e. the same as 3 are at present would I be allowed out of the contract?

A very good question. I would hope so, but I haven't seen the T&Cs that define what trial period (if any) there will be with the NBS scheme, or what rights you have if in the future your speeds drop to unusable levels (or below the 1.2Mbps guaranteed by the scheme).

drunkmonkey

You allways had the 14 day money back gurantee, (I have to check is this the case with the NBS)

I think you question is if i'm in an NBS area and I take home the modem and it's crap what do I do next?
If your in an NBS area there will be options to improve the service.

@Watty, I know exaclty what your saying and I agree, just playing devils advocate like Bond..

watty

jor el wrote: »

I don't see the relevance of that. Prices for mobile midband are coming down, not going up, and with increased competition in the market, they're not likely to increase.



As opposed to Three's 150euro per GB over the cap?




A very good question. I would hope so, but I haven't seen the T&Cs that define what trial period (if any) there will be with the NBS scheme, or what rights you have if in the future your speeds drop to unusable levels (or below the 1.2Mbps guaranteed by the scheme).

It's apparently 5c a Megabyte. If we be Generous and count decimal that is 5000c a Gigabyte = €50.

It's of the nature of it that if it works, it will work for 14 days, but 3 to 9 months later your speed could be 150kbps max at peak times. Interesting question.

The pricing of Mobile Data isn't sustainable unless the operators are making 99% profit on Voice calls. When the numbers of subscribers has peaked or EU intervenes on competition distortion grounds (Decent fixed DSL & Cable can't offer a Mobile voice service to subsidize data) the data prices have to go up.

If we assumed the out of bundle (excess cap) is an indication of more realistic prices then a Basic unsubsidized Data package is really about €100 for a few GByte cap.

It might be a couple of years away. Mobile usage (and eircom overpricing) has reduced fixed lines to 66% from 82%. About 1/3 of those 66% are on welfare subsidy. It's not reasonable that Mobile Internet is replacing DSL for fixed use simply because of Dodgy Advertising (Mobile Broadband), over priced line rental and Mobile data subsidized by Mobile voice.

mk6705

watty wrote: »

So in reality for 1.2Mbps minimum indoor coverage for 30% takeup of broadband (That's what UPC gets of "passed" houses, maybe a bit less), you could need about 700 masts. (how many for Kerry )
.

Surprisingly broadband is very available in Kerry. I mean I'd say almost everywhere is covered, wireless or not. If you took into account fixed wireless and ADSL nearly everywhere would be covered. Fixed wireless mightn't be perfect but it'll outperform HSDPA anyway. Also, even if the O2 network is crap here in general compared to the rest of the country, they have EDGE practically all over the place. So basically, this NBS is stupid, at least there. But there does seem to be more fixed wireless here than anywhere else. Still for the investment in it and the fact that there's an EU logo on those adverts it really annoys me!

z0oT

Only in Ireland would something like this happen. It's all merely so our lovely minister can say "Ah sure tis fine... they've their broadband now". I wholeheartedly agree that mobile operators shouldn't be allowed to call it broadband.

ZeRoY

After reading the thread - which is very interesting by the way - I think im not to bothered by the terms "Broadband" being use for the service. In data comm, the term broadband is more to do with the technology in use than the actual signal rate.

Whats worrying is indeed the speeds advertised. How stupid are 3 to stipulate a MINIMUM speed for both download and upload ??! The speed mention cannot be guarantee and that is extremely misleading. Oh well, i hope they have a lot of patient Customer Service Staff to cope with the complains when they arrives!

In summary and in my opinion, this NBS from 3 is the new Dial-up offer for the masses. The speeds will probably fall to that of Dial-up within 6 months but i guess we'll just have to wait and see. In fairness i think at this stage in Ireland any new service for broadband can be welcome looking how it is behind other European countries when it comes to broadband (anything thats not Dial-up) coverage.

garrethmcdaid

If the ad said:

"A new 3G Service is coming to Limerick", how many people without a background in data communications would know what it meant?

jor el

ZeRoY wrote: »

In summary and in my opinion, this NBS from 3 is the new Dial-up offer for the masses.

I would say that the NBS is doing nothing more than the taxpayer paying for Three's network roll-out, and not actually delivering anything new at all. Specifically, after looking at the maps on Three's website that show where NBS is being rolled out, I saw Bothar in Co. Limerick down as an NBS area. Bothar is already covered by O2 with HSDPA. Three and the NBS are offering absolutely nothing new here.

watty

garrethmcdaid wrote: »

If the ad said:

"A new 3G Service is coming to Limerick", how many people without a background in data communications would know what it meant?

They would think another Mobile Phone operator, which is honest and true. If the mobile Data products didn't have "Broadband" in the name and they were honest that it's just the Modem part of a Mobile Phone, no-one would confuse 3G Mobile Internet and Broadband. The two aren't the same or the NBS would be "selling" the portable and lightweight aspect as a feature.

(from http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60987842&postcount=6676)

thebman

Its not broadband. Broadband should be always on. Advert is misleading.

You have to dial up with this service. It is no different to dial up Internet access especially with 3's track record on this forum and elsewhere. They sometimes provide dial up speeds, sometimes faster, sometimes no service at all, sometimes certain websites are blocked.

Bottom line, it isn't dependable so it isn't a solution IMO.

Walkman

Just so everyone knows the ad is published by The Department of Communications not 3. The Department say where the advertising goes and in what areas. There are two seperate issues here both of which 3 have no control over i.e. Content and location.

Our man in Havana

Just so everyone knows the ad is published by The Department of Communications not 3.

So the ASAI will no doubt wash their hands as they would count this as an exempted communication, i.e. the dept are not a commercial organisation. Ryan is smarter than the average bear.

watty

This very similar advert is by 3
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055612244
@Walkman
Have you proof the Dept is spending money on these adverts?
(I shall ring the Limerick Post tomorrow)

Link to 3's T&C for NBS http://www.three.ie/pdf/NBS_smallprint.pdf

Firetrap

Yes it's misleading. Only last night I had to dissuade relatives of mine who wouldn't be particularly tech savvy from signing up with them even though they might be in with an outside chance of getting DSL. It's all down to the marketing.