Baader Meinhof murder conspiracy

nyarlothothep

The first generation members of the RAF were supposed to have killed themselves in a suicide pact. However they were in maximum security prison with cells specifically designed for their internment so smuggling in weapons would not have been easy. Also the only survivor Ingrid Moller suffered 4 stab wounds to the chest. How likely is it that someone can stab themselves four times in the chest? In addition she has gone on record as saying that they were not suicides but extra judicial killings orchestrated by the german government.

watty

She is not however a reliable witness. I'm sure you mean Irmgard Möller

I actually remember these events.
I'm inclined to support this view http://www.clivejames.com/point-of-view/baader-meinhof

These people have a bit of the "Herostratus" about them too. They were not nice people who killed and injured a lot of innocent people. Their "complaint" and cause was totally without merit.


My understanding is that a rescue attempt went wrong. Perhaps there was inside help or complicity on some level with that.

However I can see no motive for an Extra Judicial Killing.

nyarlothothep

I'm not particularly interested in the legitimacy of their movement but in the conspiracy surrounding the deaths. For the record I do not condone what they did although to balance it a little you have to understand the context which, note, does not excuse, but explains why they resorted to the methods they did, eg former nazis running the country, student protester killed etc. In a way the antagonisms can be considered comparable to the western antagonistic policies in the ME which are spawning all those Islamic terrorists. And while we're at it, its much of a muchness really, dominant Western powers are responsible for many of the worst atrocities in recent history, google CIA holocaust to see what I mean. So the rights or wrongs of it don't concern me here, seeing as we live in a world of mostly wrong, where the dominant powers maintain a more polished reputation in comparison to history's losers.

studiorat

Nothing to add, except a picture of the painting by Odd Nerdrum

asdasd

former nazis running the country,

Nope

student protester killed etc.

by a Stasi operative.

The RAF were largely controlled by the Stasi, as well. The obvious conspiracy here - and one that proably wont go down well on a conspiracy forum since it is true and doesnt involve Aliens, Zionists, Masons, or Capitalists - is the conspiracy by a Communist State to subvert a democratic one using the dupes ( and non-dupes) of the RAF.

meathstevie

nyarlothothep wrote: »

The first generation members of the RAF were supposed to have killed themselves in a suicide pact. However they were in maximum security prison with cells specifically designed for their internment so smuggling in weapons would not have been easy. Also the only survivor Ingrid Moller suffered 4 stab wounds to the chest. How likely is it that someone can stab themselves four times in the chest? In addition she has gone on record as saying that they were not suicides but extra judicial killings orchestrated by the german government.

Exactly the sort of rantings and ravings you'd expect from a deluded stalinist. If push came to shove and I had to make the choice whether to be ruled by a stalinist or a nazi I'd prefer the nazi every time.

nyarlothothep

asdasd wrote: »

Nope



by a Stasi operative.

The RAF were largely controlled by the Stasi, as well. The obvious conspiracy here - and one that proably wont go down well on a conspiracy forum since it is true and doesnt involve Aliens, Zionists, Masons, or Capitalists - is the conspiracy by a Communist State to subvert a democratic one using the dupes ( and non-dupes) of the RAF.

They were heroes.

asdasd

ha! we outed nyarlothothep as a full on Stalinists.

They were heroes.

Real heroes who were in favour of freedom would've tried to get across the border into Russian occupied Germany and fired a few well deserved bullets at members of the Stasi, and the other Russian controlled dupes in the East German hierarchy. That would be brave, and pro-freedom. It would have been a lot more dangerous.

Only Stalinst dupes in favour of totally controlled socieities would take money from their Stasi overlords ( many of whom had worked under Nazzism) whilst the same forces were oppressing their fellow countrymen. While their own countrymen were shot for fleeing the communist hellhole.

Why didnt these murdering ****ers take a few pot shots at the East German army manning the wall. That would have been justified.

I thik democratic States are far too lenient on people who want us to be slaves. I'd've liked to see the murdering bastards of the rAF tortured for weeks until their deserved deaths. Ugly evil middle class poseurs killing ordinary people for kicks, and supporting the oppression of their own people, taking money from the Oppressors. Its as if the IRA ( whom I dont support) were funded by the RUC.

The sickest shower of wankwits since WWII.

nyarlothothep

asdasd wrote: »

ha! we outed nyarlothothep as a full on Stalinists.



Real heroes who were in favour of freedom would've tried to get across the border into Russian occupied Germany and fired a few well deserved bullets at members of the Stasi, and the other Russian controlled dupes in the East German hierarchy. That would be brave, and pro-freedom. It would have been a lot more dangerous.

Only Stalinst dupes in favour of totally controlled socieities would take money from their Stasi overlords ( many of whom had worked under Nazzism) whilst the same forces were oppressing their fellow countrymen. While their own countrymen were shot for fleeing the communist hellhole.

Why didnt these murdering ****ers take a few pot shots at the East German army manning the wall. That would have been justified.

I thik democratic States are far too lenient on people who want us to be slaves. I'd've liked to see the murdering bastards of the rAF tortured for weeks until their deserved deaths. Ugly evil middle class poseurs killing ordinary people for kicks, and supporting the oppression of their own people, taking money from the Oppressors. Its as if the IRA ( whom I dont support) were funded by the RUC.

The sickest shower of wankwits since WWII.

Tehehe

Hmmm, yes, well that's what the RAF did mostly to their targets (and I condemn it), I don't see how you can take the moral highground here...

Again, its interesting how this is getting de-railed into an attack on communism (which I knew was going to happen) when (a) Russia and its satellite states were not communist (b) the focus was meant to be on whether the german state orchestrated their deaths. Its funny how we associate communism with repression when the actual ideology was never put into practice.

But whats even more interesting is how we're quick to criticize opponents of the western ideology, and rightly so, for their crimes yet when it comes to our own it either doesn't get widely publicized or it just gets ignored.

asdasd

Its funny how we associate communism with repression when the actual ideology was never put into practice.

Not really. When a system is put into place across all he continents of the world, with about 2 billion people at it's peak, and that "scientific" system is supported in the West by all the communists and fellow travllelers as the correct implementation of the system, then that is the system. You dont get to say it isnt now.

You cant have communism without repression because you have to steal wealth to start with, and maintain the illusion of equality by repressing anybody of enterprise.

Anyway, a bit off-topic I agree.

As to the original conspiracy. Maybe. But I wouldnt care. The killing of that RAF hijacker by the Israelis was good times as well.

yet when it comes to our own it either doesn't get widely publicized or it just gets ignored.

Give over. The opposite is the case.

nyarlothothep

asdasd wrote: »

Not really. When a system is put into place across all he continents of the world, with about 2 billion people at it's peak, and that "scientific" system is supported in the West by all the communists and fellow travllelers as the correct implementation of the system, then that is the system. You dont get to say it isnt now.

You cant have communism without repression because you have to steal wealth to start with, and maintain the illusion of equality by repressing anybody of enterprise.

Anyway, a bit off-topic I agree.

As to the original conspiracy. Maybe. But I wouldnt care. The killing of that RAF hijacker by the Israelis was good times as well.



Give over. The opposite is the case.

fair enough, I'll set up a system of state repression and call anarchism. Or instead maybe I'll set up a religion called Christianity which worships the devil.

asdasd

air enough, I'll set up a system of state repression and call anarchism.

Or set up a system called communism which demands the "dictatorship of the proletariat" and ends up with a dictatorship.

Marxism is bollocks anyway, a theory for losers and morons. But when it was running all communist parties, and intellectuals in the West were Stalinists or Trots. All communists declared free speech, property ownership, and every other thing as "bourgeois fads".

if a system is imposed on 2 billion people the exact same way, and is always oppressive, and clearly has to be oppressive since it needs to take peoples wealth away; then that system, in theory and practice is oppressive.

All Communist States have to be oppressive.The State needs to seize private property. Since no-one is going to give it up, the State has to be totalitarian.


As for the claim that "communism is not what the way it worked" that would be like feudalistic claiming that even though in future feudal societies we all would be serfs, and in all feudal societies our ancestors were serfs; in reality this was not "real" feudalism because real feudalism is all about freedom, and democracy and all these nice things.

( the small print would read that the feudalist State is going to take all your wealth unless you are a Soviet Commissar [Feudal lord).

Bollocks to that. In pratice and theory Communism is about slavery.