Lions a no-win proposition?

Ivory

I love the Lions tours every time they happen, but I always have an uneasy niggling feeling about them. If we win, well we should really shouldn't we? After all its the best players of the four home nations. Problem is if we lose, we feed the insufferable arrogance of the Southern Hemisphere nations who can then preen about the fact that players from just one little old country can take on the Lions and win. (Home advantage notwithstanding.) I'd hate to see the end of the Lions, but I always have this feeling about them.

DS

Well you can argue exactly the opposite - that it doesn't say a lot for the world champions if they are beaten at home over 3 tests by a team that has been together only a matter of weeks, regardless of who the players are.

Otacon

Pros for Lions:
- Best players from the four nations

Cons for Lions
- Only a few weeks to gel as a team
- Playing away
- Playing more games

OldJay

Since the game went openly pro, the Lions have won in South Africa, lost in Australia at the death in the last Test and gotten truly whalloped in NZ.

I wouldn't say they're a lost cause at all. Far from it, in fact.
It is the last old-fashioned tour (despite what Clive Woodward tried to do with it) and if anything is a superb experience and a jump in the learning curve for our players in the squad.

PS. For "arrogance" check out this site after an Ireland win against England or an interprovincial win. Some of the generalisations here are pathetic.

Amabokke

Ivory wrote: »

I love the Lions tours every time they happen, but I always have an uneasy niggling feeling about them. If we win, well we should really shouldn't we? After all its the best players of the four home nations. Problem is if we lose, we feed the insufferable arrogance of the Southern Hemisphere nations who can then preen about the fact that players from just one little old country can take on the Lions and win. (Home advantage notwithstanding.) I'd hate to see the end of the Lions, but I always have this feeling about them.

Lions tours should stay, it is different to WCs, local leagues, AI, etc.

SH arrogance is just passion (nothing more) and is only there because NH refuses to move on and stick to rugby rules from 1980. We would respect you a lot more if you push the game forward and give us a good game and even win some.

1 WC win from 6, 1 Test win from 11 in AI 08 is not a good record.

The boks have huge respect for Wallabies and especially ABs as they always bring their A game and games can go either way.

After Ireland won 6N you should check some of those posts out, all of a sudden a World team contained 15 Irish jerseys

OldJay

Amabokke wrote: »

SH arrogance is just passion (nothing more) and is only there because NH refuses to move on and stick to rugby rules from 1980. We would respect you a lot more if you push the game forward and give us a good game and even win some.

Why don't you all (NH v SH bores) just forget all this "hemisphere" stuff? No team plays for anyone else but themselves and every country within these apparent hemispheres playing rugby is entirely different from each other.

This hemispherical idiom is a myth and has nothing to do with anything.

Otacon

Amabokke wrote: »

SH arrogance is just passion (nothing more)... We would respect you a lot more if you push the game forward and give us a good game and even win some.

:pac:

Amabokke

Justind wrote: »

Why don't you all (NH v SH bores) just forget all this "hemisphere" stuff? No team plays for anyone else but themselves and every country within these apparent hemispheres playing rugby is entirely different from each other.

This hemispherical idiom is a myth and has nothing to do with anything.

Why bother then with WCs, Autumn Internationsl, Southern Tours, Lions, etc. as that is all about NH vs SH.

Myth? :rolleyes: See my previous post about stats...

toomevara

The lions is a great tradition, and in the world of professional sport, virtually unique. As such of course it should continue. I think, however, the hype which currently surrounds the Lions is reaching silly proportions...

The lions are at a massive disadvantage from the get-go for all the reasons outlined above...we need to remain cogniscent of that fact and tailor our expectations and,more importantly, criticisms accordingly. Some of the stuff written post first test in the media is massively irresponsible and unwarranted..

tbh, I understand that being a lion is the pinnacle of an NH players career, but given the nonsense that now follows in its wake, you'd have to wonder just how attractive it is these days to professional players already dealing with an insane amount of rugby

..a summer on the beach sipping pina coladas or a summer having mounds of sh1t slung at you by one eyed media whores pushing their own narrow national, provincial,club agendas..hmmm...now let me see, which would I prefer...?

Perhaps a fresh approach is required? how about an SH 'Lions' home nations tour on an alternating cycle...

How about letting the French and Italians have a seat at the table....?

Amabokke

toomevara wrote: »

The lions is a great tradition, and in the world of professional sport, virtually unique. As such of course it should continue. I think, however, the hype which currently surrounds the Lions is reaching silly proportions...

The lions are at a massive disadvantage from the get-go for all the reasons outlined above...we need to remain cogniscent of that fact and tailor our expectations and,more importantly, criticisms accordingly. Some of the stuff written post first test in the media is massively irresponsible and unwarranted..

tbh, I understand that being a lion is the pinnacle of an NH players career, but given the nonsense that now follows in its wake, you'd have to wonder just how attractive it is these days to professional players already dealing with an insane amount of rugby

..a summer on the beach sipping pina coladas or a summer having mounds of sh1t slung at you by one eyed media whores pushing their own narrow national, provincial,club agendas..hmmm...now let me see, which would I prefer...?

Perhaps a fresh approach is required? how about an SH 'Lions' home nations tour on an alternating cycle...

How about letting the French and Italians have a seat at the table....?

SH Lions team? The NH Lions struggle to beat just one home nation so a SH Lions squad will wipe the plate clean in the North.

thomond2006

A SH Lions team? Hmmmm..

A team like this would be cool..

1. Tendai Mtawarira
2. Stephen Moore
3. John Smit

4. Bakkies Botha

5. Victor Matfield
6. Schalk Burger
7. Richie McCaw
8. Pierre Spies
9. Fourie Du Preez
10. Matt Giteau
11. Bryan Habana
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Stirling Mortlock
14. Josevata Rokocoko
15. James O'Connor

16. Tony Woodcock
17. Bismarck Du Plessis
18. Ali Williams
19. George Smith
20. Piri Weepu
21. Ruan Pienaar
22. Francois Steyn

11 Springboks, 6 All Blacks, 5 Wallabies

Jackz

Amabokke wrote: »

SH Lions team? The NH Lions struggle to beat just one home nation so a SH Lions squad will wipe the plate clean in the North.

We have some ref's up here that know the actual rules of rugby!

toomevara

Amabokke wrote: »

SH Lions team? The NH Lions struggle to beat just one home nation so a SH Lions squad will wipe the plate clean in the North.

Proof of the pudding would be in the eating. Would love to see it happen.

Amabokke

Jackz wrote: »

We have some ref's up here that know the actual rules of rugby!

:rolleyes: Very weak response. no argument and no backup!

Jackz

Amabokke wrote: »

:rolleyes: Very weak response. no argument and no backup!

I consider Sh ref's to be pretty bad, they make inconsistent decisions in the heat of the moment and the amount of forward passes in the lead up to trys I have seen in Super 14 highlights is off the chart.

I consider Alain Rolland and Alan Lewis to be close to the best and second best rugby union ref's in the world.

OldJay

Amabokke wrote: »

Why bother then with WCs, Autumn Internationsl, Southern Tours, Lions, etc. as that is all about NH vs SH

Well for a start, the RWC is most definitely NOT about hemispheres. Southern Tours? I'll give you one good reason for their taking place: Revenue, in TV rights, sponsorships and gate receipts. Ditto the Autumn internationals. None of the teams taking part represent a hemisphere. They represent themselves.

Amabokke wrote: »

Myth? :rolleyes: See my previous post about stats...

Yes, a myth. A whopper of a myth actually.
When the Wallabies win against anybody, particularly from the 6N competition or otherwise, it has nothing to do with the NZ or Sth Africa, Argentina, Fiji, Samoa or Tonga. When the Kiwis win, nothing to do with Australia, Argentina, Sth Africa, Fiji, Samoa or Tonga. When the Sth Africans do it, nothing to do with NZ, Australia, Argentina, Fiji, Samoa or Tonga.
See what I mean?
Stats will tell me who won. I can tell you that whoever won didn't do it for 'the hemisphere'.

toomevara

Jackz wrote: »

I consider Sh ref's to be pretty bad, .

I know where your'e coming from, but I've long maintained that SH referees aren't bad per se, its just that there are in fact two versions of RU evolving in subtly different ways, and to NH eyes some of their decisions appear Quixotic..and rugby is the ultimate interpretation game...

Having said that there's no excuse re:reffing for the Lions. The homework should have been done in advance and there were enough weekday/warm-up games to get to grips with the subtle difference of emphasis.

anonymous_joe

thomond2006 wrote: »

A SH Lions team? Hmmmm..

A team like this would be cool..

1. Tendai Mtawarira
2. Stephen Moore
3. John Smit

4. Bakkies Botha

5. Victor Matfield
6. Schalk Burger
7. Richie McCaw
8. Pierre Spies
9. Fourie Du Preez
10. Matt Giteau
11. Bryan Habana
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Stirling Mortlock
14. Josevata Rokocoko
15. James O'Connor

16. Tony Woodcock
17. Bismarck Du Plessis
18. Ali Williams
19. George Smith
20. Piri Weepu
21. Ruan Pienaar
22. Francois Steyn

11 Springboks, 6 All Blacks, 5 Wallabies

You've two opensides!

1. Mtawawira
2. Du Plessis
3. Hayman
4. Botha
5. Matfield
6. Rocky Elsom! (How could you leave him out!?)
7. McCaw (If on form.)
8. Soialo

9. Du Preez
10. Din Carter

11. Habana
12. Giteau
13. Ioane? Smith? Mortlock? Dunno, really.
14. Doesn't matter, you could lash in Rockocko, Pietersen, maybe Tuqiri, what about Hosea Gear, he an 11 too?
15. Muliaina

16. Smit
17. CJ?
18. Russouw? (More impact from him, I'd reckon)
19. Burger
20. Oooh... Maybe Byron Kelleher
21. Fran Steyn (you've already got two out-halves on the pitch)
22. James O'Connor (Not really, but it'd be a laugh.)

Amabokke

Jackz wrote: »

I consider Sh ref's to be pretty bad, they make inconsistent decisions in the heat of the moment and the amount of forward passes in the lead up to trys I have seen in Super 14 highlights is off the chart.

I consider Alain Rolland and Alan Lewis to be close to the best and second best rugby union ref's in the world.

Right....like Barnes that made a bad call against NZ in WC.

What looks like forward tries to you in S14 is completely different when you are on the field. A lot of times you don't even get a view in line with the player who has or passes the ball so it will be difficult to see it not as a forward. Any clips with forward passes in S14 and I'd be happy to agree with you.

Alain Rolland is good and Lewis average.

thomond2006

****, I forgot Rocky in my team!

funky penguin

Nice to see we're branching out internationally with our rivalries.

Crash

funky penguin wrote: »

Nice to see we're branching out internationally with our rivalries.

Ah its not that, I just heard some people from Munster emigrated to the Southern Hemisphere - red bastards!