Basic Question - Road Positions

bugler

Hi All,

I'm a potential cyclist (the commute to work is dragging me down). I have a basic question, and having read around I don't see it answered. I would have expected to have found the answers or indeed diagrams on the rules of the road site, but don't see anything of use.

Essentially the one thing putting me off taking to the city centre on a bike is I'm unsure of where exactly I should be, which isn't good for anyone. Always as far left as possible?

What if I'm cycling on a road with 3 lanes, the leftmost is for left turns only, the middle lane for straight ahead, the right for right turns. When coming to the junction and wanting to go straight, where should I be? As far left as possible on the middle lane?

What if the leftmost lane is left turn or straight ahead? Should I now be on the left of the leftmost lane, and hope a car doesn't cut across me?

This is basic stuff, but even though I don't drive I feel far more knowledgeable about the rules from the motorist's point of view. I've been watching cyclists but to be honest I'm sure I'm seeing bad ones as well as good, and I'm struggling to see any uniformity. Some general principles to follow would be great.

Also, if anyone has suggestions on the best route for a cyclist from Dorset St. to Stephen's Green I'd be very grateful.

Thanks.

Húrin

In moving traffic, approaching a junction, move from the left side of the road into the middle lane. stick your right arm out before you do this. This is your "indicator light" to say that you are about to change lane. Move into the Middle lane. Pass through the junction, and then depending on the place and traffic conditions, move back onto the left side of the road.

Approaching a junction where the light is red, I usually just coast up along the left side (or wherever is clearest) and move into the middle lane at the front of the queue of cars. This lets everyone know that you are there. When the light goes green, I start off and move back into the left lane to let the cars get on with it.

bugler

Hi there!

bugler wrote: »

Hi All,

I'm a potential cyclist (the commute to work is dragging me down). I have a basic question, and having read around I don't see it answered. I would have expected to have found the answers or indeed diagrams on the rules of the road site, but don't see anything of use.

Essentially the one thing putting me off taking to the city centre on a bike is I'm unsure of where exactly I should be, which isn't good for anyone. Always as far left as possible?

Always keep leftish, but about a metre out from the drains/doors of cars. This'll put you in near the middle of some lanes. It gives you space to veer in case you're stuck too.

What if I'm cycling on a road with 3 lanes, the leftmost is for left turns only, the middle lane for straight ahead, the right for right turns. When coming to the junction and wanting to go straight, where should I be? As far left as possible on the middle lane?

Yes, I'd go in the middle lane in this situation. Move out early to this position so you're not making any sharp movements. Even if there's a red 'lane' on the left hand turn lane and you're going straight, it's better to go to the middle lane. Although if it's a "bus straight only" lane or light I'd tend to go straight in that lane.

Don't be afraid to move out of the left to the middle of the lane, but do indicate.

What if the leftmost lane is left turn or straight ahead? Should I now be on the left of the leftmost lane, and hope a car doesn't cut across me?

Depends if there's a filter though, if it's red lights and there's a filter to go left before the straight green light comes on I'd be in the middle lane a little to the left. If both come on the same time I'd go in either the middle or the left lane. But I'd definitely keep out of the left for this lane and not allow anyone overtake me in this case until after the junction.

Just my observations on things. Make sure to indicate when you're moving lanes, don't go up the left of vehicles turning left, and have fun with your cycling!

Cycling very far to the left or "in the gutter" as many people call it is often times not the best approach. The type of collision that novice cyclists seem to fear most is being run into from behind. This is in fact the rarest type of collision. The vast majority of collisions occur at junctions, and cycling in the gutter will reduce your visibility to others at said junctions.

If the marked lane is not wide enough for a bike and a car side by side, any overtaking car will have to cross into the oncoming lane to get by safely, which means there must be a gap in the oncoming traffic, however some motorists with poor judgement/patience may attempt to overtake in the face of oncoming traffic, endagering you.

In these situations it is best to "take the lane" or cycle in the middle of the lane to prevent these kinds of close shaves, plus if some muppet does try to overtake too close you'll have created a space to your left that you can move in to. Obviously if the lane is wide enough to share you can move to the left and let cars overtake within your lane. Try and keep a door's width out from parked cars if you can, to avoid being "doored".

At junctions, never go straight on from a left turn only lane, as motorists might (not unreasonably) be expecting you to turn left, and cut you up. It can be a bit daunting at first, asserting yourself on the road in this way, but the vast majority of motorists don't seem to mind, in fact as a motorist I prefer when cyclists move like vehicles, in a more predictable fashion.

Google vehicular cycling or effective cycling for more info. Hope you enjoy your commute, not from dub myself so can't suggest a route but knowing the traffic choked state of dublin's streets you're def gonna save heaps of time. One more thing, NEVER go up the inside of a HGV or other large vehicle at traffic lights, even if there is a cycle lane that suggests you should do so. Happy cycling!

Blowfish

bugler wrote: »

What if the leftmost lane is left turn or straight ahead? Should I now be on the left of the leftmost lane, and hope a car doesn't cut across me?

The reason you don't see a lot of uniformity in situations like this is because it can quite often vary depending on the turn and sometimes sequence of turns.

In general, I'd take the 'straight on' lane. There is one on my commute however which just after the bit you described curves right with the 2 lanes merging. Just after that, there's a junction with a right hand turn. If I take the 'straight on' lane, cars will inevitably overtake me on the left and will tend to avoid overtaking me on the right. This would leave me on the right hand side of the single lane after the merge, with cars that want to turn right at the next junction cutting across me. Hence, I stick to the leftmost lane and 'take the lane', moving left at the merge.

The other situation you'll need to look out for is roundabouts. As above, never hug the left around a roundabout, even if there is a cycle lane that does. Those cycle lanes are incredibly lethal and I've seen some of them removed because of it. Personally I tend to 'take' the inside lane if I can as you are more visible and no one is cutting across you. Following on from what James said though, never stay in the outside lane with a HGV on your inside on a roundabout. The 4th and 5th picture here will show you why.

Overall I'd say that most bike + vehicle accidents aren't caused by not 'getting out of the way' enough for other vehicles, but by not being seen by them in the first place.

Sean02

If you are unsure about the route from Dorset St. to Stephens Green perhaps you might be better building up your confidence by doing your initial cycling in the Phoenix Park. The question of road position is common sense, my advise is use pedestrian crossings.

Ghost Rider

Howya. I lived in Smithfield and Phibsboro for years and cycled daily to the Nassau Street and Ranelagh areas. For you, I'd suggest heading down Dorset Street, taking a left after Bolton Street College and heading down Capel Street.

I found the best route from there to be up Capel Street, straight over Grattan Bridge on to Parliament Street and left on to Dame Street. When I worked in Nassau Street, I would go down Dame Street, then get up on the footpath (sometimes without dismounting, admittedly) at the traffic island opposite Front Gate of Trinity and get back on to the road heading up College Green towards Nassau Street, at which point - if I were you - I'd turn up Kildare Street and hey presto - you're at the Green.

Alternatively (and this is the way I went when working in Ranelagh), after Parliament Street, I'd turn left, then immediately right after the little paved area on the right, then left and up the little lane by the side of The George - it's a smelly place but a handy shortcut and sometimes you get to see some... um... local colour there.

I would then hang a right on South Great Georges, continuing on past Hogan's, turning left at Stephen's Street Lower, following that round to the right behind Stephen's Green shopping centre and meeting York Street, where I'd turn left. This would bring me straight on to the Green near Harcourt Street and close enough to, say, the Department of Foreign Affairs.

The one place I'd exercise extreme caution on that route is Capel Street. I got doored there once and it's all too easy to happen as it's pretty tight for space. One thing you might try is to ride to the right of the cars rather than the left. Cars that are occupied by only one person (and there are many, this being the country it is!) are not likely to be the ones that spring open a cold metallic surprise in front of you while waiting in traffic - for obvious reasons.

In any case, even if you stay left, as long as you go slowly enough on Capel Street, you can't come to all that much harm.

My main tip, as ever, for safety when cycling in Dublin is this: wear a visi vest.

bugler wrote: »

Also, if anyone has suggestions on the best route for a cyclist from Dorset St. to Stephen's Green I'd be very grateful.

Thanks.

Lumen

Ghost Rider wrote: »

My main tip, as ever, for safety when cycling in Dublin is this: wear a visi vest.

My question is: being amongst the highest mileage and fastest cyclists in the city, why don't messengers wear hi-vis? It it because they have a deathwish, or because they have mad skillz? Or both? Or maybe it isn't necessary?

blorg

Generally, yes, get into the right lane for the direction you intend to travel.

I would not stay near the left of any lane other than the leftmost one. Even then you have to avoid the gutter. If you are in a middle lane, be in the middle of that lane. Right-most lane, middle of the lane. The only variance from this would be if you are on the rightmost lane on a one way street, it would be sensible then to stay either in the middle or on the the right of that lane.

TinyExplosions

Lumen wrote: »

My question is: being amongst the highest mileage and fastest cyclists in the city, why don't messengers wear hi-vis? It it because they have a deathwish, or because they have mad skillz? Or both? Or maybe it isn't necessary?

cos dey iz too cul for dat, innit?

Gavin

Do it like you would in a car. Also see wiki

Lumen

bugler wrote: »

I've been watching cyclists but to be honest I'm sure I'm seeing bad ones as well as good, and I'm struggling to see any uniformity.

Recently I've felt more at risk from other cyclists than cars.

This morning I witnessed a splendid combination of f'ckwitted cycling and aggressiveness from a bloke in full Milram kit on a blue Colnago going down the quays in Dublin.

Dear Fred, my wallet thanks you; you've just curbed my Colnago lust for a few more weeks.

Ghost Rider

I've often wondered that very thing. Maybe it's a combination of both i.e. deathskillz. Actually, I wonder did couriers in the 1980s wear visi vests? After all, day-glo colours were actually fashionable back then...

Lumen wrote: »

My question is: being amongst the highest mileage and fastest cyclists in the city, why don't messengers wear hi-vis? It it because they have a deathwish, or because they have mad skillz? Or both? Or maybe it isn't necessary?

Lumen

Ghost Rider wrote: »

deathskillz

Word of the week!

lukester

Lumen wrote: »

bloke in full Milram kit on a blue Colnago

Wow, a rare sighting of an uber-Fred. You must be chuffed.

Lumen

lukester wrote: »

Wow, a rare sighting of an uber-Fred. You must be chuffed.

Can you see me inside, holding the stones?

tomasrojo

Cyclecraft by John Franklin covers this type of situation very well. You can probably find it in a library if you don't want to buy it. All editions going back to at least the 80s cover how to go straight ahead at multi-lane junctions. The advice is pretty much as given here, but more detailed. He suggests, as far as I recall, that you can proceed straight from the right of the left-turn lane if it's too difficult to get into the middle lane. You just have to be careful of motorists who decide to go straight ahead from the left-turn lane undertaking you.

On the subject of hi-viz vests, Franklin says that they work, but brightly coloured clothing works about as well during the day and is less of an encumbrance when off the bike. At night you should have lights anyway, and they don't add that much value when you have good lights.

A Sam Browne belt is easier to pack away than a high-viz vest, I find. They roll up nice and tight.

tomasrojo

http://libcat.dublincity.ie

I see that Dublin City Libraries have seven copies. They're from the 80s and 90s, but older cover this manoeuvre, as I said before.

Ghost Rider

It's true that brightly coloured clothes will do a pretty good job during the day but who wears clothes as bright as a visi vest? Not me - or not often anyway. Also, the reflective strips on a visi vest add a lot at night. Arguably, a Sam Browne belt does a similar thing but with fewer reflective strips, usually.

tomasrojo wrote: »

At night you should have lights anyway, and they don't add that much value when you have good lights.

A Sam Browne belt is easier to pack away than a high-viz vest, I find. They roll up nice and tight.

tomasrojo

I suppose Franklin's point is that there is a point where you're visible enough. His idea of visible enough might not match other people's idea, but I personally think he's about right.

Sorry, I'm dragging this off topic now.

BostonB

I'm not very experienced but I'd say be as wide/visible as possible so you can't be ignored. Thus I would go center of left lane and straight.

Unless of course its a filter and green arrow for straight then I'd go into the middle. Problem with this is as stated earlier, people going straight in the left lane instead of turning, they end up undertaking you. As soon as you see a gap move back into left lane.

Staying tight to the left at junctions, even if theres a cycle lane can be dangerous. But it depends entirely on the situation.

bugler

Thanks to everyone for their help, some great stuff in there and I'm much clearer on it now. The concept of vehicular cycling helped too.

I actually did the cycle and it was fine, I really enjoyed it and O'Connell Bridge won't be as intimidating next time round Unfortunately it seems I picked up a fairly bad buckle on my back tire (really didn't make the journey back very easy!). I was blaming a motorist in the work car park (!) but I think maybe it could be due to spokes being too tightened/loose and the rim needs to be trued.

lukester

Lumen wrote: »

Can you see me inside, holding the stones?

It's a small picture, but unless you're on your road bike in full team kit and baby-oiled legs about to commute to work, I can't see nuffink.

bugler

bugler wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for their help, some great stuff in there and I'm much clearer on it now. The concept of vehicular cycling helped too.

I actually did the cycle and it was fine, I really enjoyed it and O'Connell Bridge won't be as intimidating next time round Unfortunately it seems I picked up a fairly bad buckle on my back tire (really didn't make the journey back very easy!). I was blaming a motorist in the work car park (!) but I think maybe it could be due to spokes being too tightened/loose and the rim needs to be trued.

Ya sometimes if a bike hasn't been used regularly for a while some of the spokes on the back wheel can sporadically loosen themselves. Go to http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#tensioning for some instructions on how to straghten it out yourself. If you don't feel confident going at it yourself bring it to a bike shop, shouldn't cost too much. Also, make sure there aren't any broken spokes, they can be difficult to spot until you actually pull on them.