Is there too many institutes

Bren1609

I was reading in the sunday business post (SBP) the article on ICAI learning programme and I was reflecting on the number of accountancy institutes in Ireland: there are 5 accountancy institutes, 1 taxation institute and now ICAI has launched the chartered tax consultant.

Originally ICAI maintained that their qualification was the best because of the training & entry requirements. ACCA, CPA & CIMA exams were more difficult but were more flexible in terms of training and experience. However, it just seems now as though all the old entry, training and exam requirements have been abolished across all institutes in what appears to be a race to the bottom.

The article in the SBP stated that one of the reasons that learning programme was introduced was because there are approx 11,000 accountancy students between the ages of 24 - 35 with very few of them choosing the ICAI. In effect what there saying is were losing students and money.

So is it really necessary to have all these institutes, which each claiming to be better or more unique than the other when effectively the entry, training and pass requirements are the all the same? Would it not make sense to have one irish accountancy/tax institute?

Kingkong

There are too many instutes doing the same thing and a doubt it will even be any consoildated effort on there part.

I was annoyed when I read about the ICAI Elevation Programme and the Tax consultant programme because I felt it was them trying to broaden there member base which may lead to them dilluting the status of an ICAI accountant. People spend a large amount of there life getting to be a member of ICAI the Elevation Programme is like the back door in!

On the other side of things there is an argument that bringing in more member through targeted programmes will strenghten the overall membership i.e industry accountants through the elvation programme. However if the quaility is lowered e.g. tax consultant programme is seen as a lower standard that AITI would cheapen the status of ICAI.

Do members have any say on how the instute runs itself or on introducing new programmes.

Running Bing

Kingkong wrote: »

There are too many instutes doing the same thing and a doubt it will even be any consoildated effort on there part.

I was annoyed when I read about the ICAI Elevation Programme and the Tax consultant programme because I felt it was them trying to broaden there member base which may lead to them dilluting the status of an ICAI accountant. People spend a large amount of there life getting to be a member of ICAI the Elevation Programme is like the back door in!

On the other side of things there is an argument that bringing in more member through targeted programmes will strenghten the overall membership i.e industry accountants through the elvation programme. However if the quaility is lowered e.g. tax consultant programme is seen as a lower standard that AITI would cheapen the status of ICAI.

Do members have any say on how the instute runs itself or on introducing new programmes.

I agree with you.

Im only starting my exams but the reason why I am willing to go through the next few very difficult years is because the qualification is well recognised.

Why is it well recognised? Because the standard of members is high. Why is the standard of members high? Because the qualification is so hard to get.

If the institute starts providing back doors and easier entry routes (not saying this is the case with elevation because I dont know enough about it) its only a matter of time before standards fall and people who hold the qualification (from going through the traditional tough process) are held in less high regard. That would be very disapointing as it would be solely down to the institutes actions.

smcgiff

Not with ICAI, but see the elevation programme as a good idea. Nothing wrong with it at all. Shows ICAI moving with the times. I don't see it as diluting the ICAI brand.

But yes - there are too many brands. But ICAI members are partially to blame for that when they rejected the CPA members (not CPA either ).

Climber

I'm not with ICAI but I can empathise with your concerns.

The ICAI introducing the "Elevation" programme, is akin to the dept of Education granting 'IT' status to all former RTC's in an attempt to give more people the chance of obtaining a Degree.

It certainly made it easier for anyone to get a Degree, however, all it did was de-value one to the point of it being virtually worthless when applying for a job (which is the main reason why 99% of people do any sort of academic/professional exams).

Hence the reason why I (having obtained a 'worthless' Degree from a former RTC) have spent the last two years trying to get the ACCA qualification.:mad:

Has the ICAI not learnt from the Law Societys' mistakes? There are now too many Solicitors in the Irish Market, some of which will never practice law. I can see the same problem arising in the Accountancy profession quite soon.

smcgiff

Climber - ACCA, as you probably know, is open access. In Ireland all you need is 3 Higher Cs in the LC or just wait until you are over 23 and can apply through the mature student route.

ICAI would undoubtedly have even more strict entry requirements if it were a monopoly, but it isn't.

censuspro

Climber wrote: »

Has the ICAI not learnt from the Law Societys' mistakes? There are now too many Solicitors in the Irish Market, some of which will never practice law. I can see the same problem arising in the Accountancy profession quite soon.

It seems as though every second grad is either doing law or accountancy. With the job losses in both these professions science and engineering subjects may be more attractive, but at the moment it appears that the accountancy profession is being over saturated with candidates.

smcgiff

censuspro wrote: »

engineering

???

& Science doesn't pay enough.

Climber

Climber - ACCA, as you probably know, is open access. In Ireland all you need is 3 Higher Cs in the LC or just wait until you are over 23 and can apply through the mature student route.

I agree that it's easy to gain entry into the ACCA qualification process, however, it is NOT easy to gain the qualification.

It is easy to access AND pass a Degree course.

There is a big difference between the two. So, for the moment, being ACCA qualified will give you a competitive advantage over another candidate who only has a Degree (which is the reason I did ACCA initially) I'm just afraid that the value of a Degree is being weakened by the fact that there are more and more routes to becoming a qualified/certified accountant.

Hanley

censuspro wrote: »

It seems as though every second grad is either doing law or accountancy. With the job losses in both these professions science and engineering subjects may be more attractive, but at the moment it appears that the accountancy profession is being over saturated with candidates.

See I think this is a big problem. What are the normal "professional" jobs that grads go into.... primarily gonna be medical of some sort, law or finance.

There's never been much happening in finance in Ireland, by and large you need to go to The City or States to stand a fighting chance, so what's left, accounting! That's how I ended up here anyway... I'd have much rather done something properly finance related but realised in school it was a bit of a non-runner if I wanted to stay in Ireland. Opportunities are there, but they're limited.

How does the Elevation program work anyway? Is it just anyone can sit the ACA exams without a college degree?? I can't really see it having that much of an effect tbh... the failure rate for those coming from honours degrees and accounting courses is still decently high!

Bren1609

smcgiff wrote: »

???

& Science doesn't pay enough.

Better than being unemployed. Lawyers are working for free these days.

ibuprofen

smcgiff wrote: »

Climber - ACCA, as you probably know, is open access. In Ireland all you need is 3 Higher Cs in the LC or just wait until you are over 23 and can apply through the mature student route.

ICAI would undoubtedly have even more strict entry requirements if it were a monopoly, but it isn't.[/quot

Yeah if you're over 23 you don't even need the leaving cert to do ACCA. You'll find alot of older people in related fields i.e. people in pensions do ACCA.

Unless you get a 2.1 in College you won't get your exemptions for ICAI. Think most of the big 4 firms would have ICAI accountants.....

Going back to college myself so I can do the ICAI qualification myself. Did one of the F subjects in ACCA in preparation for it would have been quicker but chose the college route.

Hector Holmes

The way things are going you need to have two qualifications to differentiate yourself in the market place. Regardless of whether you are an engineer, software developer, graphic artist etc the most obvious second qualification to possess is in accountancy/finance. I think we can expect to see even more people pursuing these qualifications but do not expect them to be sufficient to differentiate you on their own. Whether or not there are too many institutes is irrelevant as the market will decide which qualification they value. ICAI is an old boys club which is in decline - ACCA & CIMA give global recognition and the CPA is a parocial institute for the Irish market. Each have their place and you got to decide which one you want on your CV.

censuspro

I think taxation will be the qualification to have. With so many accountants around very few of them can give decent tax advice which is the one service that clients are willing to pay for.

Also, I dont think the ICAI have done themselves any favours by launching their "Chartered Tax Consultant" which will be in direct competition with Irish Taxation Institute (ITI). Although the ICAI will have access to all the chartered students, they dont have the revenue people and the dont have the law people. The ITI is an establised brand that has members in law, practice, revenue, government and industry. I cant see how the ICAI will be able to compete with that. I think the better option for the ICAI would have been to try and estbalish a type of mutual recognition with the ITI rather than going into direct competition with them.

Stabshauptmann

I'm not an accountant, but I work in FS and maybe my perception of accounting will answer some questions you have.

The way I, and other non-accountants, see it is that there are two types of accountants: management accountants and traditional accountants.

The former are CIMA, the latter are either ICAI if practice / big 4, CPA if smaller practice or ACCA if industry.

I know that those are not hard and fast "rules", but the perception I have is that the differences between the institutes are down to the students availability schedule wise, not course content or prestige.

I don't think the ICAI and ACCA should amalgamate because they serve two groups with different needs. Though it looks like the ICAI want to be the only game in town by simultaneously offering the Elevation course to attract traditionally ACCA students and the C. Tax consultant to compete with the ITI.

Expand or die for the ICAI perhaps?

Btw can someone please fix the thread title, we all make typos, but this typo appears on the front page everytime there's a reply to the thread.

Stabshauptmann

Ps I should have said, I'm trying for my ACA because I see it as a more valuable qualification than a masters.

High fail rate, 3.5yrs business experience and a good knowledge of Tax, Finance and Accounting.

censuspro

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

I don't think the ICAI and ACCA should amalgamate because they serve two groups with different needs. Though it looks like the ICAI want to be the only game in town by simultaneously offering the Elevation course to attract traditionally ACCA students and the C. Tax consultant to compete with the ITI.


Btw can someone please fix the thread title, we all make typos, but this typo appears on the front page everytime there's a reply to the thread.

The ACCA and ICAI could never amalgamate, the only likely merger would be ICAI & CPA. That was tried before but never came to pass.

Btw the ICAI has the highest pass rates of all the institutes.

Excuse my ignorance but whats the typo in the thread?

Slippers

Are there too many institutes?

Hanley

Slippers wrote: »

Are there too many institutes?

More a grammatical error than a typo... but we won't go there

Kingkong

censuspro wrote: »

I think taxation will be the qualification to have. With so many accountants around very few of them can give decent tax advice which is the one service that clients are willing to pay for.

Also, I dont think the ICAI have done themselves any favours by launching their "Chartered Tax Consultant" which will be in direct competition with Irish Taxation Institute (ITI). Although the ICAI will have access to all the chartered students, they dont have the revenue people and the dont have the law people. The ITI is an establised brand that has members in law, practice, revenue, government and industry. I cant see how the ICAI will be able to compete with that. I think the better option for the ICAI would have been to try and estbalish a type of mutual recognition with the ITI rather than going into direct competition with them.

I reckon the institute will push the big accountancy firms to get graduates in tax to do the chartered tax consultant. If that happens cutting out the AITI will collapse there member base. Will be interesting to see how it pans out.

Hanley

Kingkong wrote: »

I reckon the institute will push the big accountancy firms to get graduates in tax to do the chartered tax consultant. If that happens cutting out the AITI will collapse there member base. Will be interesting to see how it pans out.

How much sway does the institute have with the big firms? I'd have thought it works the other way around.... firms send students somewhere else, institute suffers?

slicus ricus

Hanley wrote: »

How much sway does the institute have with the big firms? I'd have thought it works the other way around.... firms send students somewhere else, institute suffers?

The problem is that if one big firm breaks away, it puts that firm at a big disadvantage. Essentially all the big firms would need to break away at the same time, which is pretty unlikely to say the least. Until that happens, firms are more or less at the mercy of the institute... which is not necessarily a bad thing in terms of job security for those of us under training contracts (provided we get through our exams).

ICAI

We wanted to comment on a few points made earlier in the thread. The entry criteria to the Chartered Accountant qualification are the exact same whether a student joins under the Elevation Programme, or the traditional training contract route. A level 7 degree or the Accounting Technician exams are required for entry, and a recognised level 8 accounting / finance degree is required to get exemptions. Likewise, the experience required to qualify as a Chartered Accountant is the same under the Elevation Programme as under the training contract route.

The difference between the Elevation programme and the traditional route is that the experience can be gained outside of a training contract – a facility which is needed by mature students. But the standard of entry, education, training and exams will be the exact same. The Chartered Accountant qualification will be the same irrespective of which route students join through.

ICAI