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VATICAN II BAPTISM OF DESIRE

  • 22-06-2009 12:39pm
    #1
    peakpilgrim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭


    Hi

    RE: VATICAN II - THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE

    Does anyone have any comments to make on the above topic

    Kind Regards,


Comments

  • #2
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Why don't you start off?


  • #3
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    peakpilgrim wrote: »
    Hi

    RE: VATICAN II - THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE

    Does anyone have any comments to make on the above topic

    Kind Regards,

    Would give it a go, but haven't a clue what it is. Please explain?


  • #4
    super_furry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,349 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    Sounds like a Steven Seagal film.


  • #5
    peakpilgrim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭peakpilgrim


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Would give it a go, but haven't a clue what it is. Please explain?

    Hi Brian Calgary,

    RE: VATICAN II - BAPTISM OF DESIRE

    This doctrine, re-affirmed in Vatican II, states that it is not necessary to be Baptised to inherit Eternal life. An individual must only act with a true heart and follow their conscience.

    Kind Regards


  • #6
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    peakpilgrim wrote: »
    Hi Brian Calgary,

    RE: VATICAN II - BAPTISM OF DESIRE

    This doctrine, re-affirmed in Vatican II, states that it is not necessary to be Baptised to inherit Eternal life. An individual must only act with a true heart and follow their conscience.

    Kind Regards
    That's not my understanding.

    Baptism of desire is where a person desires to become a Christian and where normal baptism by water isn't available but is desired. The saving grace of Christ brings salvation with the water being an outer symbol of an inner cleansing of the soul. This would be an emergency situation most probably.


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  • #7
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    I agree as the bible says: 'Ephesians 2:8
    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

    baptism is not needed for salvation. baptism is an act of obedience, a public demonstartion of a private act of faith, which is coming to Christ.


  • #8
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    I still maintain Brian, that baptism, whether it be by water, desire or blood, confers the saving grace of Christ.


  • #9
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I still maintain Brian, that baptism, whether it be by water, desire or blood, confers the saving grace of Christ.

    And you could be right. :)

    I asked teh question in Sunday School class one day: does the Holy Spirit convey spiritual gifts at th etime of baptism?


  • #10
    peakpilgrim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭peakpilgrim


    kelly1 wrote: »
    That's not my understanding.

    Baptism of desire is where a person desires to become a Christian and where normal baptism by water isn't available but is desired. The saving grace of Christ brings salvation with the water being an outer symbol of an inner cleansing of the soul. This would be an emergency situation most probably.

    Hi Kelly 1

    RE: BAPTISM OF DESIRE

    I discussed this matter some time ago with a Religious Teacher and the example he gave me was as follows:

    A Head-Hunter in the Amazon, who has never met anyone from the outside world, (This was back in the 1970's when it was certain that such people did exist - prior to the mass destruction of the rain-forests! ) is one of God's children as well; God has a plan for that person as He has for all of us. If he is true of heart and follows his conscience then he will inherit Eternal Life.

    A Missionary is right to go about teaching the word of God; but those that are not reached are no less children of God.

    Kind Regards


  • #11
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    And you could be right. :)

    I asked teh question in Sunday School class one day: does the Holy Spirit convey spiritual gifts at th etime of baptism?

    A good question indeed :)

    I think this verse makes it quite clear that the Holy Spirit is received in baptism:
    Acts Of Apostles 2:38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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  • #12
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    kelly1 wrote: »
    A good question indeed :)

    I think this verse makes it quite clear that the Holy Spirit is received in baptism:

    Thanks for that verse. :) I didn't have it handy for our discussion. I just spoke from experience at teh time of my adult baptism in relation to teh ministrythat I do; and the idea that Jesus ministry began at the time of His baptism and teh descent of teh Spirit.


  • #13
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    peakpilgrim wrote: »
    Hi Kelly 1

    RE: BAPTISM OF DESIRE

    I discussed this matter some time ago with a Religious Teacher and the example he gave me was as follows:

    A Head-Hunter in the Amazon, who has never met anyone from the outside world, (This was back in the 1970's when it was certain that such people did exist - prior to the mass destruction of the rain-forests! ) is one of God's children as well; God has a plan for that person as He has for all of us. If he is true of heart and follows his conscience then he will inherit Eternal Life.

    A Missionary is right to go about teaching the word of God; but those that are not reached are no less children of God.

    Kind Regards

    But I think the "desire" must be a desire to become a Christian and be baptized into Christ.

    I understand what you're saying and I think that God will be merciful to someone who lives a good life according to that prompting of their conscience but has never heard the Gospel. But yes there would have to be some kind of baptism involved because nobody is saved without grace.

    Maybe the scope is wider than I realized, thanks :)


  • #14
    postcynical
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭postcynical


    peakpilgrim wrote: »
    RE: VATICAN II - BAPTISM OF DESIRE

    This doctrine, re-affirmed in Vatican II, states that it is not necessary to be Baptised to inherit Eternal life. An individual must only act with a true heart and follow their conscience.

    Kind Regards

    I agree with your summary in the case where somebody is ignorant of the gospel or where somebody has been hurt in the name of religion, destroying their chance to welcome a faith which was misrepresented by that religion. My understanding of the RC position is closer to Kelly1's one below. Here are two relevant extracts from the catechism.
    RCC Catechism wrote:
    1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
    1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
    peakpilgrim wrote: »
    An individual must only act with a true heart and follow their conscience.
    In most societies, this would be moot since such a course of action would inevitably lead to faith. Just like the 'sola fide' dispute; true faith will lead to consequent charity. The two go together. No need for fights:o True faith through true thought:).


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