Damaged Rifle from incorrect screw cutting

reddevilstu

Hi all,

Im new on here and would like to pick your brains as to where I stand on an issue I have with a gun dealer.
Thing is I left my rifle in to be screw cut for a moderator with said dealer after assurances by him that it would be done on a computer controlled lathe and it would be a top class job.
I can only describe the job he did as disastrous, the threads are rough with the very fine thread at the start broken in places, there were metal shavings in the barrel, the screw on piece to protect the threads when fitted sits off centre which probably means any moderator fitted will do the same and worst of all the crown of the rifle has been damaged internally by whatever means this guy used to clamp the barrel.
I presume from reading on the net that this fifles accuracy is now totally compromised?
I have not paid for the job and want to know where I stand as in,

do I need a new gun or barrel?
can this barrel be salvaged and if so will it affect the way it shhots as in accuracy and range?
finally I presume the dealer is liable for any work that needs to be done?

I am so pissed off, it's a brand new gun that's taken me almost a year to get! The gun is a Tikka T3 in 30-06 calibre normal blued barrel.
Any help greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.

rowa

don't attempt to screw the moderator on if the threads are rough whatever you do ! there is a danger of the threads galling and seizing on leaving you with an unusuable rifle and no way of getting it off ,except cutting or heat ,both bad news ,

i'd think the best option would be to part off the threaded section and recut it on fresh metal , by someone else of course .

Grizzly 45

OUCH!!Well,this was going to happen sooner than later here.
The chances of effing up work with a CNC lathe,if you dont know what you are doing is just as bad if not worse than with a normal lathe too.

First off,get this gun to a competant GUNSMITH,not a gun dealer,of which I belive there are three left in the Republic with the paperwork to prove that they are gun smiths to access the damage and to get a report together of this hames of a job,as you want a file to take to your solicitor to sue this gun dealer for making a total bolix of your gun.:rolleyes:

It sounds like he clamped the barrel and mechanism straight into the lathe jaw chuck,and didnt bother about having this turning between the ends.
Good job you didnt pay for this butchery,and I wouldnt give this person one red cent either,actually he should pay for getting this professionally remedid by somone in the know.
Second,it proably is salvagable by cutting off the mess and recrowning and re threading it properly.By somone who knows what they are doing.So long as the lands and grooves havent been scored by the metal chips or filings,you will proably be all right

You are just going to have to live with a TikaT3 carbine.:) Not the worst thing in the World.

rowa

normally when you see torn threads like that its a sign that the outside diameter was too large (when it should be just slighty undersize to allow the metal to spread) and someone used a die to both reduce the outside diameter of the barrel and thread it at the same time , you also have to wonder how it was held while this operation was being carried out , is there any visible marks on the action body or barrel exterior ?
the threads in my humble opinion have been so badly done that they are unlikely to be concentric to the bore either , which means the bullet might decide to take the baffles with it on its merry way downrange , highly dangerous .
any chance of a pic ?

ayapatrick

what will have to be cut of it now? inch at most id say. youd hardly sacrifice any accuracy at that!
i did see a mod that was cut straight(on the barrel straight) and whatever happenned the mod is slightly angled up? ie. in the vertical plane its closer

Alzir

If theres damage to the crown it sounds like it was located at the muzzle using a dead center or gripped with too much force against live center and chucked at the breech.
In which case the barrel was probably centered with a dial gauge on the OD rather than the bore.
Sounds like this gun dealer handed the job out to a hobby machinist who said "ill give it a go" not understanding the necessary parameters as a gun smith or shooter.

ejg

It'll be hard to judge by eye if the threading job is accurate or not. Have it checked.
Some factory barrels do not have the bore really centric to the outside diameter, Sako was known for that. Meaning a thread cut center to the bore might look out of place and the thread protector could be off center. Another reason not to have a tight fitting bush in an overbarrel mod.
It is not nice to have a ripped thread look and it could lead to galling as mentioned before, certainly doesn't look professional. I had a thread cut on a cz which didn't look great but was absolute center and never gave bother. These threads should be cut via lathe not via a die.

Fergal Whyte in Athlone could possibly check it.

edi

kakashka

reddevilstu wrote: »

Hi all,

Im new on here and would like to pick your brains as to where I stand on an issue I have with a gun dealer.
Thing is I left my rifle in to be screw cut for a moderator with said dealer after assurances by him that it would be done on a computer controlled lathe and it would be a top class job.
I can only describe the job he did as disastrous, the threads are rough with the very fine thread at the start broken in places, there were metal shavings in the barrel, the screw on piece to protect the threads when fitted sits off centre which probably means any moderator fitted will do the same and worst of all the crown of the rifle has been damaged internally by whatever means this guy used to clamp the barrel.
I presume from reading on the net that this fifles accuracy is now totally compromised?
I have not paid for the job and want to know where I stand as in,

do I need a new gun or barrel?
can this barrel be salvaged and if so will it affect the way it shhots as in accuracy and range?
finally I presume the dealer is liable for any work that needs to be done?

I am so pissed off, it's a brand new gun that's taken me almost a year to get! The gun is a Tikka T3 in 30-06 calibre normal blued barrel.
Any help greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.

Hello
Actually very hard to do this job on cnc IMO,need to centre off bore and at both ends of barrel,and clamp both ends,sounds like he used a live centre on crown,a bit crazy,i'd say it can be salvaged no problem BUT would you accept that?
Did you purchase from same RFD?
Personally i'd be dropping it back asap (if you have inyour posession)and demanding a new gun

Trojan911

reddevilstu wrote: »

Any help greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.

You must be well pi**ed, sorry to hear it. This chap may be able to help you with advice, if you are in the Kerry area or give him a bell.

thedragon

Dont get anyone to help you with this.Go back to him with the gun and demand a new Tikka t3.Dont even fire the damned thing.If you brought your car to a garage for a service and they crashed it on you,what would you do.

J.R.

Hi,

What was the dealers attitude / answer when you went to collect it? has he / she admitted that they made a 'bags' of it? Have they any suggestions on how the matter could be rectified?

I am not well up on consumer rights but I would imagine that, to be fair to the person, that you should give them the opportunity to rectify the matter properly.

By that statement I don't mean giving them a second go at it but anybody can make a mistake and a reputable dealer will be willing to admit the mistake and also be willing to rectify the mistake....by replacing the barrel, or entire gun if necessary, or allow you to bring it to a reputable gun smith to have it rectified and they pick up the bill.

Trojan911

thedragon wrote: »

If you brought your car to a garage for a service and they crashed it on you,what would you do.

Go here maybe?

See where the dealer is going to go with this. If he is going to wash his hands and start passing the blame then a solicitor would be on the cards. Don't think a small claims court would work for you...

reddevilstu

J.R. wrote: »

Hi,

What was the dealers attitude / answer when you went to collect it? has he / she admitted that they made a 'bags' of it? Have they any suggestions on how the matter could be rectified?

I am not well up on consumer rights but I would imagine that, to be fair to the person, that you should give them the opportunity to rectify the matter properly.

By that statement I don't mean giving them a second go at it but anybody can make a mistake and a reputable dealer will be willing to admit the mistake and also be willing to rectify the mistake....by replacing the barrel, or entire gun if necessary, or allow you to bring it to a reputable gun smith to have it rectified and they pick up the bill.

First of all thanks for all the replies and help to everyone.
You're absolutely right J.R. I am going to give him the chance to rectify the matter and if I don't like what he's proposing well I'll just have to cross that bridge if I come to it.
I did not say anything to him at the time except to point out that there were metal shavings in the bore to which he then set about trying to remove with a stanley blade! I had to tell him that it was not a good idea after that I kind of lost my confidence in him.
I am quite new to shooting and did not want to cause a fuss but I know a botch job when I see one and I wanted to get a second opinion to be sure.
I am supposed to be buying a moderator from him and was to pay for everthing on wednesday. ( Incidentally does anyone know how much an ASE UTRA North star mod should cost?)
If I got the barrel cut and re-done will this not affect the accuracy/handling of the rifle?

Thanks again.

rowa

if you're only talking about the loss of an inch or so of barrel , so long as its crowned properly i don't think you'd notice the difference in velocity or accuracy , i think the rule of thumb is 25 fps loss per inch of barrel , its the collateral damage that might have been done that would worry me , if some clod simply clamped a 3 jaw chuck down on the action and stuck a centre into the end of the barrel they could have damaged the rifling or if the tailstock was not on centre bent the barrel or barrel to action join ,
rifles are precision made so as to be accurate and should be treated with care , the problem is even if the rifle is ok are you still going to have confidence in it .i would have no confidence in the seller and it would be the last time i would deal with him , trouble is its all too common , i accompanied a cousin to a gun shop before , he wanted to buy a browning trap gun the shop had one and my cousin was excited and didn't look too closely at the gun , i did and noticed a big dent in the top ventilated rib which i pointed out to the shop owner , "no problem " he says and gets out a dirty big screwdriver and sticks it between barrel and rib and levers away , i was amazed at the crudity of it .

dwighet

been there done that.......if you want a number of a lad that will get it RIGHT....pm me....he chaqrges like a bull. but its worth it!!!!

clivej

reddevilstu wrote: »

First of all thanks for all the replies and help to everyone........................
( Incidentally does anyone know how much an ASE UTRA North star mod should cost?)
If I got the barrel cut and re-done will this not affect the accuracy/handling of the rifle?

Thanks again.

ASE UTRA North star mod should cost?
UNDER €300

If I got the barrel cut and re-done will this not affect the accuracy/handling of the rifle?
NO


Where in the country are you living ????

reddevilstu

clivej wrote: »

ASE UTRA North star mod should cost?
UNDER €300

If I got the barrel cut and re-done will this not affect the accuracy/handling of the rifle?
NO


Where in the country are you living ????

Im in Co. Wicklow, I'm going to bring the gun to a gunsmith in Wexford who is a sound guy and is Browning factory trained among other things just wish I had brought it to him first! I'll see what he says and keep you all informed. I'll see if I can get a picture up (translation = borrow a camera!)

Thanks again lads.

meathstevie

Is that lad in Wexford a man who goes by the name of Walter ? If I were you I'd have a clear not to be misunderstood word with the gundealer who had the original job done for you : re-barrel the rifle at his expense. If he doesn't want to play ball get a proper gunsmith to have a look at it and if it's a botched job as you said it is : name and shame.

reddevilstu

meathstevie wrote: »

Is that lad in Wexford a man who goes by the name of Walter ? If I were you I'd have a clear not to be misunderstood word with the gundealer who had the original job done for you : re-barrel the rifle at his expense. If he doesn't want to play ball get a proper gunsmith to have a look at it and if it's a botched job as you said it is : name and shame.

Your on target there Stevie, Walter is his name and I'll talk to him later. This is getting worse by the minute, I was informed from another guy that if during the threading process too much heat was let build up in the barrel it could now be dangerous:mad::mad:
I don't think I will ever have confidence in this rifle now, "because of the caliber the pressures are enormous and therefor I should only have got it done professionally and re-proofed"

Keep you all piosted as to how I get on.

thedragon

Theres a lot of really talented people out there very capable of fitting a mod to a rifle but the only problem is, unless they undrstand rifles and how important the crown is etc there going to make big mistakes.For example,many guys use the crown to steady the rifle in the machine,this is not a problem but if the cut taken is too large,excessive pressure comes on the crown and it gets damaged or if the centre is pushed too tightly against the crown it gets damaged.Basically my point is,if your getting rifle work done,bring it to a guy that works on rifles for a living and not a gunshop,the gunshop will 9 times out of 10 get a local machine shop at it and this is where the problems start.

deerhunter1

thedragon wrote: »

Dont get anyone to help you with this.Go back to him with the gun and demand a new Tikka t3.Dont even fire the damned thing.If you brought your car to a garage for a service and they crashed it on you,what would you do.

Correct, to hell with him demand a new rifle let him keep it and give you a new one

riflehunter77

deerhunter1 wrote: »

Correct, to hell with him demand a new rifle let him keep it and give you a new one

Plus one on the above if he does not play ball there would be letter from my solicitor going in. As you have said you have no cofidence in your rifle already.

Grizzly 45

.

This is getting worse by the minute, I was informed from another guy that if during the threading process too much heat was let build up in the barrel it could now be dangerous:mad::mad:
I don't think I will ever have confidence in this rifle now, "because of the caliber the pressures are enormous and therefor I should only have got it done professionally and re-proofed"

Quite frankly that is a load of toss as well.:rolleyes:They would have to have taken the steel up to 500 degrees plus to start even causing the most basic structural changes in the metal,and then a lot more.TBH machine gun barrels or Mini gun barrels get red hot in firing,and dont burst or warp.They have to be replaced because the rifling is worn out.
Plus it would have to be reheated all over the barrel to cause some sort of structural failure.Then that would have been material failure in the manufacturing process.Unlikely if the gun was sold in proof.
The only place somthing like that could happen would be up around the threading.BUT they would have to have cut it without any lubrication,thussly buggering up the cutting tool on the lathe.And at those temps they would have friction welded the tool to the barrel.
Simple way to tell if the steel was over heated is look at the cuts and see if they have a "rainbow" like coloring.Its a sign of wrongly heated/treated steel.
Even then it would be safe to shoot ,unless they went and decided to re temper the barrel as well for you.:eek:
But still an all,I would go on the consensus on this.Seeing that it was a brand new rifle.Get a replacement from this "gun dealer".

kakashka

deerhunter1 wrote: »

Correct, to hell with him demand a new rifle let him keep it and give you a new one

++++1

rowa

only problem with teling him to demand a new rifle is the gun will be put back on the shelf and the dealer will wait to pass it on to some other poor soul who walks in looking for a tikka , would you suspect a new rifle taken out of a box has been bodged about with before it has even fired a single shot ?
tricky situation !

fish slapped

Is there a case for "name and shame" to protect others going down the same route???

Half-cocked

90% of the technique for threading a rifle barrell properly is in the set up. There are several equally good methods of setting up, which method will depend on the size of the lathe, length of barrell etc. You need to discuss how the job will be done and avoid like the plague anyone who will 'throw it up on the lathe' or who will use a die for anything other than cleaning off the last couple of thou on the thread. Ask if they have a 3 or 4 jaw chuck and politely leave the presence of the 3 jaw chuck man! A CNC lathe is still only as good as its operator and the set up is the same as a manual lathe, so don't let the CNC man convince you that his hi-tech machine is the answer to correct threading.

IRLConor

fish slapped wrote: »

Is there a case for "name and shame" to protect others going down the same route???

As much as I'd love that, please name/shame people elsewhere. If they decided to take a libel case based on what was said here they'd typically include boards.ie in the suit.

If the dealer's name was posted here, we'd be forced to delete it immediately.

thedragon

fish slapped wrote: »

Is there a case for "name and shame" to protect others going down the same route???

Its a very difficult situation for for this guy to name and shame.Your right when you say that but If I were the dealer in question,Id replace this rifle and find a more compitent Guy to do my work in future.To name and shame would probably kill the mans business and nobody would like to see that happen to anyone.Theres a lesson to be learned here for everyone,that is,bring your guns to a fulltime competent gunsmith that has a good reputation and produces good quality workmanship.Most guys just go into a gunshop and have no idea where there guns are being worked on,they never get to meet the man thats doing the job and in most cases its a guy that runs a machine shop and knows nothing about guns whatsoever he just threads the rifle and has no idea of the importance of bore alignment or care of the crown etc. Sadly this is the situation most guys find themselves in when they want a moderator fitted,they dont even think about it themselves,they just assume that there gun is being looked after by a top gunsmith.I can assure everyone here on Boards that about 90% of guns threaded in Ireland are done by these type of wokshops.Lads would drop dead in most cases if they only knew who was working on there guns and the shoddy set ups there guns were being exposed to.Funny enough these guys are getting away with it and the reason being,that most lads that have a mod fitted are only hunting foxes or do a bit of deer hunting,they dont really rely on total accuracy,if the fox etc is hit,all seems well. I bet if these guys took a before and after look at there target groups,they might not be too happy.There are of course dealers that are fortunate enough to have great men do there work but I think youll find that these few are always very keen shooters themselves with a greater understanding of the workings and the mechanics of rifles.If you were in America or Australia or anywhere like that where shooting sports are huge,If you want to buy a gun you go to a gunshop,if you want a job done on a gun you go to a gunsmith where you know whos doing your work.The bottom line lads is this,if your having work carried out on a gun go to a guy that work on guns for a living,there you can be assured that its being done correctly and with care. I PMd this unfortunate lad with details of my man that I whole hearthedly recomend as his way of getting this problem sorted and I think he may have spoken to him since I dont know how this situation will resolve but its not one any of us would like to find ourselves in.

Grizzly 45

And this is exactly WHY in law there should be a requirement for
[1] Gun dealers and gunsmiths to be two seperate entities.
[2] that gunsmithing should be a recognised apprenticeship trade like in the EU[Seeing that we all want to be Europeans:rolleyes:] here.
Saying you are gundealer and a gunsmith,is like saying you are a shoe salesman and a podontorist.:eek:
If this job had been taken to a qualified gunsmith this sort of nonsens wouldnt happen,as this by rights a no big deal gunsmithing job.

thedragon

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And this is exactly WHY in law there should be a requirement for
[1] Gun dealers and gunsmiths to be two seperate entities.
[2] that gunsmithing should be a recognised apprenticeship trade like in the EU[Seeing that we all want to be Europeans:rolleyes:] here.
Saying you are gundealer and a gunsmith,is like saying you are a shoe salesman and a podontorist.:eek:
If this job had been taken to a qualified gunsmith this sort of nonsens wouldnt happen,as this by rights a no big deal gunsmithing job.

Yes!! Its like Pharmacy sales assistant saying,Im a doctor.A car salesman saying Im a mechanic or a security guard saying Im a Kop etc.These are all similar traits but a firearms dealer is at the end of the day is simply a salesman,not a gunsmith.

kakashka

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And this is exactly WHY in law there should be a requirement for
[1] Gun dealers and gunsmiths to be two seperate entities.

Why?i wouldnt think a gunsmith could make a good living here without dealing of some sort?
I know some gsmiths probably would have no interest in dealing but i'm sure some would/do
Would we not just end up with less smiths?

reddevilstu

Hi all,

just wanted to update you on the result of my meeting with the dealer.
In fairness to him I explained my grievances and straight away he offered to replace the barrel with no quibbles. He even offered me the North Star moderator at cost price as a gesture of good faith which I took him up on.
I've been to the Garda Station and had the number changed on the Licence and now have the gun back in it's original condition.
I am now going to have it threaded by a top class guy. I suppose the moral of the story is do your homework and make sure you see examples of the work before you have it done.
I am delighted with the outcome and the dealer's attitude and therefor I will do business with him again, I just wont get any threading work done there and he's happy enough with that.
Thanks for all your help and advice,

Reddevil:):):)

rowa

thats good news, is it a new barrel or new rifle ? , seeing as he's done the honourable thing who is this dealer ?

reddevilstu

he had a t3 hunter there so he just took the stock off that and put my synthetic stock on.
happy days

clivej

Good news Red Devil.

I collected my ASE Northstar moderator in 5/8" and .30cal last week and got my 223 CZ Varmint threaded on Firday. I'm very happy with the threading - a good job well done @€;60 + a thread protector.

Off to the range on Saturday and the new mod cuts the noise and recoil down well. The noise is now such that you could shoot without muffs if needed. And the groups tightened up just that tad smaller.

Got my first fox, and first kill, with the CZ Varmint on Saturday night @140y in the first field we lamped with the mod fitted and all worked out nice and quite.

Grizzly 45

Good to hear.Alls well that ends well.:)

reddevilstu

clivej wrote: »

Good news Red Devil.

I collected my ASE Northstar moderator in 5/8" and .30cal last week and got my 223 CZ Varmint threaded on Firday. I'm very happy with the threading - a good job well done @€;60 + a thread protector.

Off to the range on Saturday and the new mod cuts the noise and recoil down well. The noise is now such that you could shoot without muffs if needed. And the groups tightened up just that tad smaller.

Got my first fox, and first kill, with the CZ Varmint on Saturday night @140y in the first field we lamped with the mod fitted and all worked out nice and quite.

hi clivej,

do you use the moddy on a .30 cal and if so what is the recoil like with it on? I was told it would bring the 30-06 down to about same level as a .243.
How do you find the 223? I was looking at a second hand Steyr scout, lovely rifle. Is it a flat shooting caliber and is it mainly a foxing caliber?
thanks,

reddevil

clivej

reddevilstu wrote: »

hi clivej,

do you use the moddy on a .30 cal and if so what is the recoil like with it on? I was told it would bring the 30-06 down to about same level as a .243.
How do you find the 223? I was looking at a second hand Steyr scout, lovely rifle. Is it a flat shooting caliber and is it mainly a foxing caliber?
thanks,

reddevil

I got the mod in .30 cal for the 308 that I'm getting as well and also for use on the 223 that I now have.

I'm waiting 3 months for the 308 license to come through, another change of Super here in Kilkenny as of 3 weeks ago.

So I have only had the ASE Northstar mod on the 223 over the weekend and must say it takes some of the recoil out of the round as well as reducing the noise well as I found out on Saturday night when I shoot the fox without any hearing protecting on.

I use the 223 for foxes and use Federal V-Shok 40gr rounds that I find very fast, 3700fps, and flat. Zero 1" high @100m and it will be zeroed @200m and will be 1" low @225m so I have a 2" target (Point Blank Range I think they call that) out to 225m when the cross hair is on the fox.

reddevilstu

I know how you feel I was waiting 10 months for my 30-06 licence, very frustrating missed the whole of last season.
whats the noise and recoil like on the 223 without the mod on?

clivej

reddevilstu wrote: »

I know how you feel I was waiting 10 months for my 30-06 licence, very frustrating missed the whole of last season.
whats the noise and recoil like on the 223 without the mod on?

Recoil is still Ok without the mod but with it on it's a pussy cat.

Noise is unbearable without the mod. I shot it once when zeroing and forgot to wear the ear muffs never again. With the mod fitted you can shoot all day and not be deafened. And you won't wake the neighbours shooting at night.