Is Ireland welcoming to immigrants?

Blue_Wolf · 16-06-2009 10:03pm #1

I read a post somewhere that if your American and are thinking of moving to Ireland than think again. Really...are we that bad?

markopantelic · 16-06-2009 10:05pm

We were moderately welcoming it could be said in good times but I have noticed munch resentment towards immigrants lately.

Blue_Wolf · 16-06-2009 10:29pm

Do you think it depends on where they are from?

In recent times I can see that Polish people have been taken a bashing. In the "good times" as you said, we only had issues with those who came here to claim on our attractive benefits and to beg on our streets ie Romanians (not that I want to point the finger)

Now we are attacking those who have been paying tax in the country and who were doing the jobs that we ourselves didn't want to do 5 years ago as it was seen as to low for us...

jaffa20 · 16-06-2009 10:32pm

Some are, some aren't.

You can't categorise 4,156,119 people into a yes or no answer.

markopantelic · 16-06-2009 10:35pm

Umm I'm not sure but I read recently that in terms of reported 'racist' attacks we are at 5 in some statistics list. However it has to be said generally this is more coming from people who hate everything and everyone that isn't them(and they prob hate themselves as well) We don't exactly have any far right movements here.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 16-06-2009 11:39pm

White Americans would have no problem here. Other ethnicities might get some crap but I'd say less than most western countries

civildefence · 16-06-2009 11:48pm

Blue_Wolf wrote: »

Now we are attacking those who have been paying tax in the country and who were doing the jobs that we ourselves didn't want to do 5 years ago as it was seen as to low for us...

I'm sorry but i disagree with this statement. Who was doing these jobs before the foreigners were? someone was! And I liked doing my job until I was undercut out of the market by foreign workers. Also, an American immigrant is unlikely to be coming to Ireland to work in a spar shop, an eastern european probably is since it would pay more than a high-end job in that part of the world.

SLUSK · 17-06-2009 12:22am

civildefence: If you're being laid of for some eastern European person who barley speaks English then you don't seem to be a very valuable worker. I hate people who blame immigrants instead of looking at their own inadequacies.

SLUSK · 17-06-2009 12:24am

I'm not sure if Ireland is welcoming or not, I don't know any Irish people

markopantelic · 17-06-2009 12:28am

SLUSK wrote: »

I'm not sure if Ireland is welcoming or not, I don't know any Irish people

lol where ya from? scandanavian country?(just seen your post in nordic forum *shifty*

markopantelic · 17-06-2009 12:30am

civildefence wrote: »

I'm sorry but i disagree with this statement. Who was doing these jobs before the foreigners were? someone was! And I liked doing my job until I was undercut out of the market by foreign workers. Also, an American immigrant is unlikely to be coming to Ireland to work in a spar shop, an eastern european probably is since it would pay more than a high-end job in that part of the world.

Well it wouldn't but back in 2004 maby. But good point about the American, they are more likely to be recruited for some high end company for example although I worked with a few immigrant staff last year in a shop and one was American.

civildefence · 17-06-2009 12:33am

SLUSK wrote: »

civildefence: If you're being laid of for some eastern European person who barley speaks English then you don't seem to be a very valuable worker. I hate people who blame immigrants instead of looking at their own inadequacies.

You have some neck making a statement like that! I lost my job because foreign workers undercut my wage to the point it was not possible for me to make ends meet on that wage. And although the employer is equally to blame, I still have a grievance over it. Nothing to do with any "inadequacy" you seem to think I have. Grow up.

SLUSK · 17-06-2009 12:39am

civildefence wrote: »

You have some neck making a statement like that! I lost my job because foreign workers undercut my wage to the point it was not possible for me to make ends meet on that wage. And although the employer is equally to blame, I still have a grievance over it. Nothing to do with any "inadequacy" you seem to think I have. Grow up.

Why should employers pay more than they have to? Do you want to pay more than you have to for stuff?

civildefence · 17-06-2009 12:47am

SLUSK wrote: »

Why should employers pay more than they have to? Do you want to pay more than you have to for stuff?

If thats the case why should anyone bother to learn their trade for 4 years if at the end of it you get handed the same wage as an unskilled worker. There are salary entitlements set down by unions to ensure skilled workers are fairly paid for the work they are doing, its what balances the economy. Unfortunately not all employers conform to these entitlements. Do you think anyone would study medicine if doctors got €9 per hour? It's the thatcherite attitude like yours that has 400,000 names on the live register.

SLUSK · 17-06-2009 12:51am

Supply and demand apply to all goods and services, including labour. I don't think I'm entitled to a high salary if someone who can do the job is willing to do it for less.

civildefence · 17-06-2009 1:00am

SLUSK wrote: »

Supply and demand apply to all goods and services, including labour. I don't think I'm entitled to a high salary if someone who can do the job is willing to do it for less.

Well you'll always have a job in that case.

markopantelic · 17-06-2009 1:05am

ye i mean sure doesnt that just prove the decision to allow access to accession states benefits big business, i mean its clear a polish immigrant can afford to work for less than an irish one, particulary if they plan on returning home once they make some money.

i understand u have to be competitive and stuff but then the person might not be able to make a living.

just to say i know ireland isnt 'the land of a 100000 welcomes to immigrants, but i don't think in general we're too bad especially considering the older generation is acustomed to emmigration, human instinct dictates that people will find it uneasy immigrants coming in, a bit 'cavemen' for my liking, i mean a country like australia is pretty xenephobic and there country is one of the few 'nation of immigrants'

SLUSK · 17-06-2009 1:09am

markopantelic wrote: »

ye i mean sure doesnt that just prove the decision to allow access to accession states benefits big business, i mean its clear a polish immigrant can afford to work for less than an irish one, particulary if they plan on returning home once they make some money.

i understand u have to be competitive and stuff but then the person might not be able to make a living.

Surely a polish guy will have the same expenses for food, renting and the like while living in Ireland? Besides why do natives have a god given right to jobs?

markopantelic · 17-06-2009 1:15am

its a good point, i dont really believe in nationality and all that so its hard to compromise my beliefs and i dont think 'natives' have a god given right but imo i would like to see people who maby plan on staying and making their future in the country given jobs. lets say civildefence for example he probably has family and other connections in ireland so its unfair that he might be forced to move elsewhere to find work. the polish immigrant will probably be more likely to endure some suffering in wait for the long term gain. some times these are the type who dont really enjoy ireland and leave knowing nothing about it. i like polish people, in fact one the most interesting people i work with was polish but u can see what happens.

i cant really describe what i mean, i hate xenephobia, i like immigration, feel diversity is a good thing and both sets of my grandparents were recent immigrants(1940's-1950's jewish) but i see where a unemployed person is coming from. i wouldnt like to be in that position especially at a time like this.

civildefence · 17-06-2009 1:22am

Surely a polish guy will have the same expenses for food, renting and the like while living in Ireland? Besides why do natives have a god given right to jobs?

Ok you obviously don't understand what goes on here.

Polish people tend to come here in groups. They rent one-bedroomed apartments between them, sometimes up to 6 people. They very rarely dine out or go to the pub, instead they eat & drink at home. They are unlikely to buy cars as the expense is unnecessary. So thats fine, thats their business. Obviously some Polish people want to stay here and will have similar living requirements to a permanent resident but the fact is that most intend to leave once the work dries up (as we are witnessing now).

Take me on the other hand. I live here, and intend to stay. I have a car on which I have to pay loan/tax/insurance etc. I intend to buy a house, so I need to save for a deposit and I need to pay a mortgage. I have a local pub, like many others, and i wish to frequent it. The list is endless. Bottom line is that Polish immigrants who are here on a temporary basis have completely different needs to a permanent resident.

markopantelic · 17-06-2009 1:24am

The second paragraph explains what I mean. I think thats the one thing that entitles a 'native' to the job over an immigrant.

neil_hosey · 17-06-2009 1:30am

i remember being in cliften talking to a group of 7 or 8 white americans sitting in the bar. They were fine for the first few minutes until they brought up if we had any problems with immigrants over here. I said no not really, he went on to tell me the massive problem with "n1ggers" (apologies if i offend anyone using this word) in America.. i was completely shocked... walked off.:eek:

BUT obviously not all americans are like that so.. NO.. we arent all unfriendly to immigrants..but some are, in every country.

neil_hosey · 17-06-2009 1:36am

civildefence wrote: »

Ok you obviously don't understand what goes on here.

Polish people tend to come here in groups. They rent one-bedroomed apartments between them, sometimes up to 6 people. They very rarely dine out or go to the pub, instead they eat & drink at home. They are unlikely to buy cars as the expense is unnecessary. So thats fine, thats their business. Obviously some Polish people want to stay here and will have similar living requirements to a permanent resident but the fact is that most intend to leave once the work dries up (as we are witnessing now).

...

Bottom line is that Polish immigrants who are here on a temporary basis have completely different needs to a permanent resident.

So what??? thats there choice they pay tax... theres no laws telling people how to carry out every day tasks like where to eat etc.. in fact in my opinion restaurants are the biggest waste of money, and we will see more irish ppl moving away from eating out 3-4 feckin times a week.

My da left ireland in the 70s as there was no work. He shared a small apartments in scandinavia, did he not have the right to go off to find work??? so whats your point??? people should stay in their own countries and not dare compete for civildefense anyones job??

greendom · 17-06-2009 1:39am

civildefence wrote: »

Ok you obviously don't understand what goes on here.

Polish people tend to come here in groups. They rent one-bedroomed apartments between them, sometimes up to 6 people. They very rarely dine out or go to the pub, instead they eat & drink at home. They are unlikely to buy cars as the expense is unnecessary. So thats fine, thats their business. Obviously some Polish people want to stay here and will have similar living requirements to a permanent resident but the fact is that most intend to leave once the work dries up (as we are witnessing now).

.

Do you think the people you see living like this do it out of choice? No of course not, they do it because their wages are so low they have to. Sounds like a pretty miserable existence tbh and given half a chance I'm sure they'd prefer to live in smaller groups and enjoy a better quality of life.

civildefence · 17-06-2009 1:41am

Have you read my previous posts at all? Maybe you should before completely missing the point.
Look at the quote I was responding to. Also if you look closely, you will see that I said

That's fine, thats their business.

You see it now?

greendom · 17-06-2009 1:43am

In terms of the OPs original question, of course there is racism in this country. Ireland is relatively new to immigration and people here are still adjusting to the new cultures that are changing Ireland. In my opinion these changes are a good thing but not everyone feels like that. This will settle down over time but you will always have racist elements in any country. Look at the Front National in France and the BNP in the UK for some uncomfortably close examples

greendom · 17-06-2009 1:45am

civildefence wrote: »

Have you read my previous posts at all? Maybe you should before completely missing the point.
Look at the quote I was responding to. Also if you look closely, you will see that I said

You see it now?

My point is that they are cutting their cloth to match their circumstances. Perhaps you need to do the same

civildefence · 17-06-2009 1:46am

greendom wrote: »

Do you think the people you see living like this do it out of choice? No of course not, they do it because their wages are so low they have to. Sounds like a pretty miserable existence tbh and given half a chance I'm sure they'd prefer to live in smaller groups and enjoy a better quality of life.

I'm sure they would and I bet they will once they return to Poland. I'm not disputing that. BTW They do have a choice, they chose to move to Ireland where even the minimum wage is good by Polish standards.

Folks I am stating fact here, none of this is anecdotal or opinion.

civildefence · 17-06-2009 1:48am

greendom wrote: »

My point is that they are cutting their cloth to match their circumstances. Perhaps you need to do the same

Sorry that response was intended for neil_hosey

SLUSK · 17-06-2009 1:49am

civildefence wrote: »

Ok you obviously don't understand what goes on here.

Polish people tend to come here in groups. They rent one-bedroomed apartments between them, sometimes up to 6 people. They very rarely dine out or go to the pub, instead they eat & drink at home. They are unlikely to buy cars as the expense is unnecessary. So thats fine, thats their business. Obviously some Polish people want to stay here and will have similar living requirements to a permanent resident but the fact is that most intend to leave once the work dries up (as we are witnessing now).

Take me on the other hand. I live here, and intend to stay. I have a car on which I have to pay loan/tax/insurance etc. I intend to buy a house, so I need to save for a deposit and I need to pay a mortgage. I have a local pub, like many others, and i wish to frequent it. The list is endless. Bottom line is that Polish immigrants who are here on a temporary basis have completely different needs to a permanent resident.

You seem to have adapted to a lifestyle that you can't afford and just because you have an expensive lifestyle does not mean than employers should have to pay you loads of money when other people do the same job for less.

greendom · 17-06-2009 1:51am

civildefence wrote: »

Sorry that response was intended for neil_hosey

No bother, my response still stands though

neil_hosey · 17-06-2009 1:51am

civildefence wrote: »

I'm sure they would and I bet they will once they return to Poland. I'm not disputing that. BTW They do have a choice, they chose to move to Ireland where even the minimum wage is good by Polish standards.

Folks I am stating fact here, none of this is anecdotal or opinion.

In my opinion your not, what Im getting is that you are blaming polish people (and previous employer in part) for the loss of your job? If someone undercuts you, and can do the same job... how can it be there fault???

I know carpenters who were earning 1000 euro a week after tax in the good times which is disgracefully overpriced. A few of them now are fúcked after buying an overpriced house and pissin most of their money against the wall. I get the same "dem polish undercutting me and putting me out of a job" crap....

civildefence · 17-06-2009 1:52am

SLUSK wrote: »

You seem to have adapted to a lifestyle that you can't afford and just because you have an expensive lifestyle does not mean than employers should have to pay you loads of money when other people do the same job for less.

Oh I see, God forgive me for wanting to be able to afford a house in the country of my birth.

SLUSK · 17-06-2009 1:54am

I do not have a great salary but can still save a decent amount, you have to tighten up your spending a bit.

markopantelic · 17-06-2009 2:00am

i think this is going off the point anway, the thread topic is are welcoming to immigrants.

i'd be suprised if there is much people as open-minded to immigration as me but some comments are unfair to civil. surely u can understand where hes coming from.

civildefence · 17-06-2009 2:04am

neil_hosey wrote: »

In my opinion your not, what Im getting is that you are blaming polish people (and previous employer in part) for the loss of your job? If someone undercuts you, and can do the same job... how can it be there fault???

I know carpenters who were earning 1000 euro a week after tax in the good times which is disgracefully overpriced. A few of them now are fúcked after buying an overpriced house and pissin most of their money against the wall. I get the same "dem polish undercutting me and putting me out of a job" crap....

But construction workers fought for years to get their rate, which at the time was fair based on what houses were costing to build and what developers were making. Then its gone, just like that. No job. As a result of the Polish lads coming in. Can you blame one for directing their discontent at the people who took it away? And don't play the racist card please. If a group of English men came in and did the same thing, i'd feel the same, in my case, they just happened to be Polish. BTW I wasn't earning anywhere near €1000.

markopantelic · 17-06-2009 2:08am

well anyway want to see a racist society in action its probably the north of ireland, as a country more than others they seem very xenephobic although for whatever reason most of the racist attacks seem to occur in unionist areas.

civildefence · 17-06-2009 2:09am

SLUSK wrote: »

I do not have a great salary but can still save a decent amount, you have to tighten up your spending a bit.

I haven't much choice now being a bum, oh well time to get back on topic!

herya · 21-06-2009 9:07pm

civildefence wrote: »

Oh I see, God forgive me for wanting to be able to afford a house in the country of my birth.

If you were undercut by an unqualified person it means that you had a job that required no qualifications. Good luck with buying a house on such a salary, in any country in the world. Reality check time...

civildefence · 21-06-2009 11:32pm

herya wrote: »

If you were undercut by an unqualified person it means that you had a job that required no qualifications. Good luck with buying a house on such a salary, in any country in the world. Reality check time...

You're very good at assuming things. I was not undercut by an unqualified person and as i'm an electrician, of course my job requires me to be qualified so your comment is void.

Blue_Wolf · 25-06-2009 12:14am

You make a fair point there. BUT, do people like to spend their hard earned cash on work that traders over quote. Plumbers,electricians, plasterers and wall builders don't, didn't and never will deserve the money they were looking for. They all ripped us off in the good times so I say YAY to the foreign workers who took your job and are doing a better job of it.

My dad is a doctor and has a huge house, quotes matched the size of the house. IE you have lots of money I'm going to charge you even more.

I had a polish lad in my house, he tiled the kitchen floor and back counter, the bathroom and toliet floor, the walls, painted the toilet and ceiling all for 300euro. Irish lad like you would have charged over 1,000euro and wouldn't have the eye for detail that a determined and motivated eastern european man would have.

I'm sorry but it's people like you who took advantage of the good times and have to suffer even more so during the bad times. You ripped us off than and now your fuc*ed. What goes up...must come down

civildefence wrote: »

If thats the case why should anyone bother to learn their trade for 4 years if at the end of it you get handed the same wage as an unskilled worker. There are salary entitlements set down by unions to ensure skilled workers are fairly paid for the work they are doing, its what balances the economy. Unfortunately not all employers conform to these entitlements. Do you think anyone would study medicine if doctors got €9 per hour? It's the thatcherite attitude like yours that has 400,000 names on the live register.

Blue_Wolf · 25-06-2009 12:32am

Excellent point here. My girlfriend is polish. Frankly, the only reason she is still here is because of me but I have learned through her that most of the polish people are getting jobs here to save money to buy houses in their own country. So, even though I had a go at you in my last post I totally and utterly agree with your point and it kind of annoys me as the money is not being spent in our country. BUT, we can not get annoyed at the polish for this. They pay their taxes and do buy things here and they do dine out and visit their local pub. Fine, not as often as we do but they still do go out

I understand why you are upset, but it's not the immigrants fault and it's not your employers fault. Business is Business.

IMO if I was undercut by some than I would be thinking that either my job wasn't appreciated or I wasn't doing good enough job.

My company wouldn't replace me as manager for someone willing to do the job for less if they were not qualified/experienced and were going to lose the company money as a result

Point is your employer made a sound Business decision, the foreigner accepted the job and was willing to make cut backs on dining out etc where as perhaps you weren't so willing to face reality and make those cut backs which in fairness most of us have?!

Or did you not have a say in the matter?

civildefence wrote: »

Ok you obviously don't understand what goes on here.

Polish people tend to come here in groups. They rent one-bedroomed apartments between them, sometimes up to 6 people. They very rarely dine out or go to the pub, instead they eat & drink at home. They are unlikely to buy cars as the expense is unnecessary. So thats fine, thats their business. Obviously some Polish people want to stay here and will have similar living requirements to a permanent resident but the fact is that most intend to leave once the work dries up (as we are witnessing now).

Take me on the other hand. I live here, and intend to stay. I have a car on which I have to pay loan/tax/insurance etc. I intend to buy a house, so I need to save for a deposit and I need to pay a mortgage. I have a local pub, like many others, and i wish to frequent it. The list is endless. Bottom line is that Polish immigrants who are here on a temporary basis have completely different needs to a permanent resident.

Is Ireland welcoming to immigrants?

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