2 Electric Showers in 1 House

Hoki

Whats the story with changing out a power shower & putting in another electric shower in a house .

The new one il be putting in is in an extension at the back of the house downstairs .

The other electric shower is upstairs . Is there some breaker i can get to stop these being used at the same time or what is the best method ?

51fun

Yeah,
you need an interlock device to prevent both coming on at the same time
this units fits into the average distribution board

most wholesalers stock them as far as i am aware
not sure about the price(bought one a few years ago for a job)

northdublin

you need either a priority or a non priority shower unit. the priority unit will only allow one to opperate at a given time but the main shower will have priority over the sub unit. with the non priority unit you still can only have one on at a time but neither has priority over the other. imo the non priority is the more popular and a tiny bit cheaper.

Hoki

Thanks lads , whats the story with the interlock device if the two showers in the house are both fed from 2 different fuseboards ?

davelerave

you need a common point fed from the main board for the non-priority(don't bother with priority).if you have a common DHW system consider investing there(cylinder,booster pump,controls)before you go ahead

LeBash

if you are getting a priority or non priority board, the best one on the market is made by a company called LXL in Glasnevin industrial estate.

When i was looking into one myself the 2 big named brands were actually continusly using 12 Watts :eek: when the shower was off.

I think the LXL one was branded Dopke.

Hoki

cheers for the help lads , never knew this forum existed until yesterday but there is no doubt il be back with more queries in the future

davelerave

LeBash wrote: »

if you are getting a priority or non priority board, the best one on the market is made by a company called LXL in Glasnevin industrial estate.

When i was looking into one myself the 2 big named brands were actually continusly using 12 Watts :eek: when the shower was off.

I think the LXL one was branded Dopke.

contactors are 'normally energized' through the n/c contacts on current sensing relays .not a great system altogether .hopefully there's an improved version of this system available

Joey the lips

Lads as this is an electrical thread I wont argue but there is slight corrections based on the op post

a priority switch is only needed for a pumped electric shower eg Triton T90. if you want to fit 2 of these.

You do not need it to fit 2 power showers. Power showers can be wired to the socket using the fused spur thing you electricians do,

Somethine consumers call electric showers power showers but its important to distinguish exactly what type of shower it is before telling the type of switch

All this is said with the greatest respect towards the trade

Joey the lips

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055553663

more information. thanks

davelerave

Joey the lips wrote: »

Lads as this is an electrical thread I wont argue but there is slight corrections based on the op post

a priority switch is only needed for a pumped electric shower eg Triton T90. if you want to fit 2 of these.

You do not need it to fit 2 power showers. Power showers can be wired to the socket using the fused spur thing you electricians do,

Somethine consumers call electric showers power showers but its important to distinguish exactly what type of shower it is before telling the type of switch

All this is said with the greatest respect towards the trade

i think it's self-evident what he's planning to do.i call heated electric showers 'mains electric' or 'pumped electric'.and as you say a mixer shower with pump is a 'power shower'

Joey the lips

davelerave wrote: »

i think it's self-evident what he's planning to do.i call heated electric showers 'mains electric' or 'pumped electric'.and as you say a mixer shower with pump is a 'power shower'

I am supplying and fitting bathrooms 10 years unfor its never self evident the worst thing to happen to showers is Argos cause these are all the models based on the T80 which are not suitable for most places in Ireland

So tbh I never ever assume when it comes to showers.

That was all i pointed out but like I say if I have offended any professionals I apologise.

davelerave

he's taking out a power shower and installing a second electric shower .it seems obvious to me anyway.maybe not to you

Joey the lips

davelerave wrote: »

he's taking out a power shower and installing a second electric shower .it seems obvious to me anyway.maybe not to you

Well I did actually say sometime what is obvious is not the case so are we to go around in circles or just ask the op

For general information Triton T80's which are electric showers are not rec in galway that is unless they changed the rules. Additionally I did not think you need to worry about wiring differently for T80's as all they do is heat the water.

Then again I maybe misunderatand as you point out

davelerave

the description 'instantaneous electric shower' (pumped or mains)might avoid any confusion for the sparkie anyhow.although it seems reasonably clear what he's doing here(to me anyway)

Thoie

Should I be worried? My parents have 3 showers that are electric, and pump the water as well as heating it. It's not unusual for 2 to be going at the same time, and on occasion all 3 are running. Is their house going to explode?

Halla Basin

i have the every shower

davelerave

Thoie wrote: »

Should I be worried? My parents have 3 showers that are electric, and pump the water as well as heating it. It's not unusual for 2 to be going at the same time, and on occasion all 3 are running. Is their house going to explode?

depends on the capacity and type of supply they have as well as the showers.if they have 3 'instantaneous electric showers' pumped or mains with no controller
on a regular 63amp supply that would be a serious prob.sometimes 2 run simultaneously with no issues although i always fit a non-priority controller.they could have a 3-phase supply with one on each phase for all i know or even a ct-metered single-phase supply( unlikely). you would need to supply more info anyhow.i would say 2 instantaneous would be ok simultaneous on the newer 16kva supplies if the tails are 25sq/80amp

bmowner

We had two new electric showers installed at our house. There was one electric shower in the house already. I was looking at the fusebox and there appears to be only two terminals (fuses?) one for the old shower and one for the new showers. The third electric shower was an afterthought so the electrican may only have joined the 3rd electric shower cable to the 2nd (new) shower cable. Is this a problem? My wife says that they had to change something today as it was overheating? What questions should I be asking the electrician. Any help would be appreciated.

2011

What type of showers are they?? Can you post the make and model?? Can you switch them all on at once or is there something electrical that prevents this?

You may have a problem, it depends on the type of shower. You should not be able to switch 2 "instantanious" showers on at the same time. They are showers like the "Triton T90" i.e. they have a cold water feed only and heat the water electrically as it passes through them.

Joey the lips

bmowner wrote: »

We had two new electric showers installed at our house. There was one electric shower in the house already. I was looking at the fusebox and there appears to be only two terminals (fuses?) one for the old shower and one for the new showers. The third electric shower was an afterthought so the electrican may only have joined the 3rd electric shower cable to the 2nd (new) shower cable. Is this a problem? My wife says that they had to change something today as it was overheating? What questions should I be asking the electrician. Any help would be appreciated.

What type of showers are they?

bmowner

old shower is triton t90si

first new shower is mira elite st
second new shower is triton t90xr

Joey the lips

bmowner wrote: »

old shower is triton t90si

first new shower is mira elite st
second new shower is triton t90xr

They are both pumped electric showers you cannot connect these without priority switches, This seriously is a job for an electrician.

bmowner

do you mean you have to have a priority switch for the two new ones or does it affect the old one also? what is a priority switch and where should it be fitted?

davelerave

a non-priority controller preferably .it's location can vary.3 instantaneous showers with no controller on a 12kva(63amp)supply would be a serious problem.the 16kva(80amp) and 3-phase can prob take 2 or 3 showers respectively without controller depending on other connected loads.3 instantaneous is unusual these days ime.most use a large hot water cylinder and booster pump for mixers

bmowner

Thanks, from what I understand a 3 phase supply is for industrial purposes? we therefore don't have a 3 phase supply.

1. what are the implications of not having the priority controller.
2. what does the controller do?
3. where should it be placed?
4. should the new showers have separate fuses on the fuse board i.e. the 2 new showers appear to share the one fuse.
5. are there health and safety issues?

bmowner

thanks, are there any safety risks if there is no priority contoller or 3 fuses?

davelerave

sorry there i deleted that post.3-phase isn't exclusively industrial at all.it sounds like you may need to get the work checked by a registered contractor.you need to have the supply capacity to run 3 simultaneous or else a controller to regulate their operation.

bmowner

what does the controller do? eg not allow more than one shower to run at any one time?

if there is no contoller what are the possibilites? eg the fuses are tripped and the showers shut down?

basically I am wondering if there is a safety problem, such as fire possibility.

davelerave

bmowner wrote: »

what does the controller do? eg not allow more than one shower to run at any one time?

if there is no contoller what are the possibilites? eg the fuses are tripped and the showers shut down?

basically I am wondering if there is a safety problem, such as fire possibility.

overload on the mains supply/fuse is the possible problem for that scenariol.it can be a fire risk.there isn't enough info atm to say much definitively except get it checked by a registered contractor

Joey the lips

bmowner wrote: »

what does the controller do? eg not allow more than one shower to run at any one time?

if there is no contoller what are the possibilites? eg the fuses are tripped and the showers shut down?

basically I am wondering if there is a safety problem, such as fire possibility.

Your questioning it that much you sound like your still going to continue. If you have 2 showers its drawing to much current. I am not going to advise of the full risk needless to say dont swork the 2 showers together till an electrician fits a priority switch

bmowner

thanks

2011

1. what are the implications of not having the priority controller

You could blow your main fuse! If the wiring is poor this may be the least of your worries.

2. what does the controller do?

It only allows 1 shower to be switched on at a time so the system can not be overloaded

3. where should it be placed?

Normally in the board. It can be placed other places.

4. should the new showers have separate fuses on the fuse board i.e. the 2 new showers appear to share the one fuse.

If only 1 can operate at one time then one MCB would be OK. Instantanious showers (such as yours) must be protected by thier own RCD (or RCBO) and not share one with the sockets. This is a regulation and very important!

5. are there health and safety issues?

With the way yours seems to be wired? I would think so.

As davelerave suggested I would get this checked out if I were you by a registered electrical contractor.

rugbyman

Hello Lads,
i need some simple advice. i am sure I could search threads and find it ,but ,bear with me,

My family are intent on bankrupting me with esb bills, we had an electrically heated shower(all of it is visible on the wall). it is called a Heat Store ,aqua plus.

for several years it was our only shower and was adequate,never piping hot, but ok.

when we built a new bathroom we went for one that uses the hot water from the tank(heated by the oil or electric). i imagine this is powered proppelled as it is on the same level as the hot water tank.

everyone in the house uses this one(as it is hotter) and the immersion is regularly switched on and left on for days. faced with enermous bills I was considering getting a modern one thats heats cold water as it is needed.

A what is approx cost of such an appliance, (just to buy, not fitted)

B how much might it save me in a year on electricity ( 15/20 showers per week)


regards,rugbyman

davelerave

you have a mixer shower or a power shower. so you could look at heating the water efficiently if possible by zoning the DHW separately and insulating the HW cylinder first.otherwise prob a 'pumped' instantaneous electric shower if possible .i don't know the cost

Joey the lips

rugbyman wrote: »

Hello Lads,
i need some simple advice. i am sure I could search threads and find it ,but ,bear with me,

My family are intent on bankrupting me with esb bills, we had an electrically heated shower(all of it is visible on the wall). it is called a Heat Store ,aqua plus.

for several years it was our only shower and was adequate,never piping hot, but ok.

when we built a new bathroom we went for one that uses the hot water from the tank(heated by the oil or electric). i imagine this is powered proppelled as it is on the same level as the hot water tank.

everyone in the house uses this one(as it is hotter) and the immersion is regularly switched on and left on for days. faced with enermous bills I was considering getting a modern one thats heats cold water as it is needed.

A what is approx cost of such an appliance, (just to buy, not fitted)

B how much might it save me in a year on electricity ( 15/20 showers per week)


regards,rugbyman

I dont know to be honest but this is not the way i would sell showers. To improve your situation I think you need an immersion timer to stop it running away with itself.

There is 2 ways to look at a shower there is stored demand and created demand

Stored demand is usually a power shower, what you seem to have. Water is stored hot in a cylinder and is planned and ready for use. This can lead to a wastage of water and so an immersion timer is rec. This option is very economical in the winter as most people would have there heating on anyway

Created demand. This is a triton T90/Mira Elite 2. Water is created as required. There is no stored hot water. This is an excellent summer alternative as no hot water is needed to be stored. As water is created as required it usually allows for visitors.

I think an immersion timer will sort you but hope this explains more

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055553663&highlight=Power+shower

rugbyman

thanks Joey, have admired your name for some time, you are on many threads, sounds like some one from the Sopranos.

have read part of your informative link.

i have a timer set on the immersion, and on the oil in winter, both of which leave us with piping hot water , the family override the timer and switch the immersion on and leave it on. part of my problem is that the timer and switches are upstairs in the hot press. i should have had them fitted downstairs and in view.

thanks again
rugbyman

Joey the lips

rugbyman wrote: »

thanks Joey, have admired your name for some time, you are on many threads, sounds like some one from the Sopranos.

have read part of your informative link.

i have a timer set on the immersion, and on the oil in winter, both of which leave us with piping hot water , the family override the timer and switch the immersion on and leave it on. part of my problem is that the timer and switches are upstairs in the hot press. i should have had them fitted downstairs and in view.

thanks again
rugbyman

Joey the lips = The Commitments. I thought jimmy rabbit was a bit to much!


Makes no difference what you do the override is a push of a button and you wont notice. I think the problem your having is the cost. This is a common problem and unless you encourage them to shower together like they did when they were young you have no chance of controling this. There is a sneeky solution but i dont rec it. i once knew of an electrician that disabled the bath element(The bigger one) of the immersion and only had the sink element working. I dont know how this turned out but its a way of slowing down the heating.

davelerave

the DHW zoned separately 'year round' is prob the best way if possible(off the boiler). if you're going down the electric water heating route you can consider 'nightsaver and economy 7 timing'.

2011

you can consider 'nightsaver and economy 7 timing'.

Do you mean the E7 units? I can see the advantages of dual tariff metering, but I see no advantage with the E7 units. I think there are far better ways to save money heating water electrically.

davelerave

i mean the horstmann type timer .with the bath element on the off-peak and the sink for 'boost' or 2 single elements .what did you have in mind for off peak water heating .do you mean something with more flexible timing?

2011

i mean the horstmann type timer

That is what I thought, I dont like them. Thats just me.

what did you have in mind for off peak water heating

What you can do is this:


Install a 2 channel digital time clock like this:


One channel can be for the lower 3kW element (or bath element) and the other element can be for the higher (or sink element). The time clock is only rated for about 3A so a contactor for each element is required (a 25A will last yonks). In series with the switch wire form each channel a tank stat can be wired. This means that the owner can easily set the desired water temperature for DHW and save money.

Tank stat:





An interlock should be installed to ensure that both contactors cannot be energised at the same time. The tank stats ensure that the elements are off once the desired temperature is reached even if the time clock is "calling" for heat.

What are the advantages of this?

1) The bath element can be programmed with the timer to only come on during off peak

2) The immersion is less likely to be left on by mistake. There is a red LED for each channel on the time clock.

3) In the event of power loss the timer has battery back up (unlike the APT timers).

4) The traditional immersion timers (APT type) fall apart/die after a year or so.

5) There is a boost facility for both elements.

6) There is a holiday setting, so you can switch it off for the duration of your holiday and come home to hot water.

7) Easy to read aesthetically pleasing back lit display.

do you mean something with more flexible timing?

Yes, and I think this is user friendly and saves money. Also It gives the owner the option of overriding the system i.e. the bath element can be switched on during peak if required. Sometimes you really want that shower no matter what it costs!

davelerave

prob. 'pre-insulated cylinder' and dual elements anyhow for efficient off-peak electric water heating.obviously the newer combi boilers (instant HW) or condensing boilers (with large pre-insulated cylinder)or even just zoned DHW are the preferred choice .there's also back boilers and solar and prob more.electric would be last choice or backup only except for instantaneous showers imo

2011

I would agree davelerave, but if for what ever reason it is decided to heat DHW electrically control becomes an important issue. Good control does not just heat the water to the correct temperature when you want it, it also saves you money.

2011

OP, what did you do in the end??
Please keep us posted

bmowner

regarding the two new electric showers making three in the house, electrician says regarding two on same fuse that each shower is 600 volts or watts or something similar and that the fuse can take up to 3,000 volts or watts etc. That there would only be a problem if two showers were turned on at same split second otherwise they can run successfully at the same time. does this sound ok?

davelerave

it doesn't make any sense to me anyhow .600 or 3000 whatever doesn't correspond to instantaneous shower ratings .if your 3 instantaneous showers run simultaneously on a regular 63amp single phase supply you have a problem.

Joey the lips

bmowner wrote: »

regarding the two new electric showers making three in the house, electrician says regarding two on same fuse that each shower is 600 volts or watts or something similar and that the fuse can take up to 3,000 volts or watts etc. That there would only be a problem if two showers were turned on at same split second otherwise they can run successfully at the same time. does this sound ok?

I know what your saying although its not making sense to you. What he says is right but if he is an electrician he should be following protocal and fitting a priiority switch to prevent accidental switch by children.

Dont say you have no children you are responsable for correct electrical safety and as such are deemed negligent so is the electrician

With the greatest of respect if the electrician did not rec this s/he either is not an electrician or you have not consulted on.

Any electricians to this post are free to correct me of course

bmowner

ok, did a search on web and the numbers appear to be completely wrong. Is the principle ok however, i.e. two showers with smaller wattage or voltage to the fuse capacity

bmowner

joey got your post after my last post.

one of the showers will be used by children. however the user type doesn't matter surely. if everything is ok (assuming my electrician friend is correct) except for that contempouraneous turning on of the two showers, the question is, what happens if the two showers are turned on contemporaneously?

davelerave

with all due respect to joey he is not a sparkie and is not making much sense.it's simple enough.if you can operate 3 or even 2(less so) instantaneous showers simultaneously on a standard supply you have a problem.should take 2 minutes to establish.main fuse or tripswitch is 63amp single ?? 2 or 3 instantaneous showers operate simultaneously or not??