Discussion to ensure Bertie Ahern never becomes President of the Republic of Ireland

An Ri rua

Hello all,

I wish to start a serious DISCUSSION.

In the light of the ongoing revelations of the lack of care shown to Irish citizens by the previous FF government under Bertie Ahern, allowing a massive transfer of wealth from one generation to another via house prices and allowing a massive miscarriage of justice and unconstitutional non-reporting of criminal actions against children, in the case of the Ryan Report into institutional child abuse, I propose that it is only fair, just and proper that the sins of omission of Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach be punished by ensuring that he first and foremost does not get any chance to become President of Ireland, among other roles he chooses to pursue.

I propose we register our anger here in a DISCUSSION. Rather than merely just signing books of condolence with the victims. Of course we feel for them. of course! Let's do more though! As collective victims of countless 'mistakes', let's strike back at these committers of 'sins of omission'. Brian Cowen, Michael Woods, the Cardinals etc etc.

When they raise their heads for noble purposes, let's witch-hunt them until they have paid their dues to the rest of society.

I for one, register my disgust with the so-called leaders of our society and declare that Bertie Ahern is not fit to be President of this country, unlike Mary Robinson who proved herself to be a citizen worth emulating.

Any support for my side of the DISCUSSION? All views welcome. Note that this is an open DISCUSSION, not a petition. Thanks admin for advising re rules. I assume that this format is now 100% reflective of the parameters.

gcgirl

Berti Ahern = CROOK should have been sent to jail for his lies!

Totally uncomperable to Mary Robinson

Nelson Muntz

If he runs for president, he is a certainty to get elected. FF kept getting voted in because of all the dimwits that only voted for Bertie.

The fact that he is a lying, cheating corrupt scumbag never stopped him getting votes before. A presedential election that is solely about him will be right up his street.

jhegarty

If he runs then there will hopefully be a vote, when we will all get hopefully get a chance to vote for the other person.

squonk

I agree but it depends on who the other person is! Really thogh, I think he'd have some neck putting himself forward for this but I wouldn't be a bit surprised. At this point though I think a lot of people who would have traditionally voted for him are starting to see that the allegations aren't just a 'throw enough much and some of it will stick' strategy. Isn't he back before the Tribunal again at some stage? That'll probably convince a lot of people that he's not worth a vote. Mind you, I'd say he'll be all but living at Croker and stop just short of actually playing for Dublin if he runs, get the oul' Dubs home support on side. Hopefuly a lot of people will see him for what he is with this one!

The Corinthian

Wouldn't he have to get a sex change first before running for president?

Red_Marauder

I think the best way of doing this would be to abolish the Presidency.

Mary Robinson has done exponentially more for human rights in the twelve years since she left office than she did when based in the Park. She did her best for the job, but the fact is that it's an executive role and all of her best efforts never actually came close enough to being significant.

Why are we talking about continuing with this ridiculous position anyway? How much does the office cost?

Apart from opening bingo halls and running the Gaisce awards, what does Mary McAleese do that the sitting judges of the supreme court could not?

solice

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I think the best way of doing this would be to abolish the Presidency.

Mary Robinson has done exponentially more for human rights in the twelve years since she left office than she did when based in the Park. She did her best for the job, but the fact is that it's an executive role and all of her best efforts never actually came close enough to being significant.

Why are we talking about continuing with this ridiculous position anyway? How much does the office cost?

Apart from opening bingo halls and running the Gaisce awards, what does Mary McAleese do that the sitting judges of the supreme court could not?

For the most part I agree with you but could Mary Robinson have become the UN Commissioner for Human Rights if she was not the President of Ireland. It gave her a platform to speak and raised her profile onto the world stage.

Putting Bertie Ahern in that position would be insulting to the role in my opinion. We need to elect somebody to inspire the people, someone who will represent Ireland on the world stage with dignity and not wear a canary coloured blazer

SeaFields

Lets not get into the debate of whether or not the office should exist. I believe it would take a referendum for it to be abolished and such a referendum will never be debated by the people whom benefit directly form the offices' existence. That horrendous, disgusting term 'jobs for the boys' comes to mind.

The office of presidency could certainly be used more effectively to highlight Ireland as a place to do business across the world which neither Mary McAlesse or, for that matter, Mary Couglan (its in her brief ffs), have done very well. And, in doing so, it shouldn't cost as much as it does in any case.

As for Bertie...it looks like the tribunal is not going to be kind to him. Can FF propose him if it is? I doubt they will. Even if they do, I heard many commentators last week saying how the Ahern name is no longer an asset in Irish politics. I hope they are right. :mad:

Red_Marauder

solice wrote: »

For the most part I agree with you but could Mary Robinson have become the UN Commissioner for Human Rights if she was not the President of Ireland. It gave her a platform to speak and raised her profile onto the world stage.

The international tenor of Robinson's legal practice in the European Court of Justice as well as her prominence in academia and Senate work was in itself significant. But that is a good point, she probably wouldn't have got the job without the presidential office behind her.

On the other hand, it wasn't so much the presidential office in itself, rather the method in which she used it that won Robinson her public praise and the attention of the UN.
She could have taken many different roads to the UN, particularly through her past in human rights law.

But as for the topic, Ahern just isn't a statesman. That was a small failure in his office as Taoiseach and he could get away with it, but it's vastly more important for the office of the Presidency, even if that office in fact has no importance in itself.

Het-Field

I have questioned Bertie heavily over the past 3 years years. However, its his recent activities which have disgusted me the most. He has virtually claimed that the economic downturn had nothing to do with him, that he is a knight in bright armour who has all the answers to our woes, and that he would love to "sink his teeth into this crisis".

Not only has he destroyed his party, but also parts of his family. I felt very sorry for Maurice Ahern, who seems like a decent guy, who had the misfortune of being linked in a familial way to Bertie.

Bertie does have some vaild achievements. His decision to devalue the punt springs to mind, his involvement in the final push (it is not all down to him by any stretch of the imagination) for Northen Ireland's movement to consent, his passage of the Treaty of Amsterdam, the development of a decent working relationship with the Clinton Administration all spring to mind. Equally he headed up a government which brough virtually 100% employment to Ireland. Up to 2002, the Bertie adminstration was working fine.

His initial problem was his encouragement to McCreevy to move from fiscal conservativism, to wanoton expenditure, while engaging in the correct low tax model, which had been stimulating Irish growth since the 1980s. This was in the hope of guaranteeing the 2002 election, which was virtually won, and was only the difference of two PD seats from FF taking an overall majority.]

He lost the plot after that. No longer were sustainable economic factors the order f the day. The construction sector was a quick and easy resource to tap into. In doing this he removed McCreevy, demoted Brennan, and shuffled Harney. In their place he brough in the loyalist (Cowen), the Corkonian (Martin), and the Halfwit (Cullen). The latter were not a patch on the former. It has sometimes been contended that Bertie did that to ensure that he had the free reign of affairs, which he wasnt allowed when Harney and McCreevy were acting in tandem. Cowen had no economic nous, but was willing to promote the easy money of the property bubble.

Equally, the revelation about his former dealings came to light when the mahon tribunal leeked a few tidbits of information perternaing to his circumstances in September 2006. This cast a huge shadow over his credibility. For me, his inability to outright rebut the accusations started alarm bells ringing in my head. He complained about the "leeks", he complaied about "procedure". Yet he never told the public that the money he had recieved was easily explicable, with no sinister motives behind it.

By May 2007 he had used every excuse in the book. Including his failed marriage, which had occured on the basis of his involvement with another woman. Brian Dobson exposed him as something of a bluffer on the 6.1 News three days before the election. However, given FG numbers from 2002, it was impossible to see them overtaking him. In the end Bertie was given his mandate.

His final year in office was taken up with his activities in the Mahon Tribunal. As Ireland's economic future was going down the pan, as Declan Ganley was running the initial stages of Libertas's "No to Lisbon" Campaign, Bertie's Drumcondra Mafia applauded him as he made more and more incredulous visits to the tribunal. Although his stories were riddled with holes and inconsistencies, he protested his innocence. Subsequently, as pressure began to mount from the remaining PDs, and the Greens, he knew his days were numbered, and quit.

Since then he has been throwing shapes about his presidential credentials. Save for his early success, his propensity to put his own hubris before the needs of the public has decimated his legacy in my eyes. I cant believe that people would believe that the economic downturn is in any way related to Bertie's departure from office. He gladly oversaw, and exacerbated the property bubble, and was aided and abetted by the incumbent Taoiseach. He happily spent money, which was not Ireland's to spend. His popularity was based on the Mary Hanafin barometer for success, i.e "we have spent x Hundred Million on X Educational service".

No more should people see Bertie as a "white knight". The people of Dublin Central have criticised him in no uncertain terms. The public should not vindicate this guys by handing him 14 years in the Aras. He is another FF with a chequered legacy, and I would much rather see somebody like Brian Crowley take on the ornament of a job that is president. In spite of its lack of power, it would be vindication of a very criticisiable politician if we were to hand it to him

Heinrich

I am convinced that Bertie is a loon! He believes all his unbelievable porkies, having trotted them out ad finitum. The chap sits on the front pew of the chapel, recieves communion and is a great religious bluffer. The man who brought the mot to see the pope.

He won't get into the Park, that's for sure.

dvpower

Heinrich wrote: »

He won't get into the Park, that's for sure.

Is it? He's the 2/1 favourite with Paddy Power.

paddyland

I can't let a thread about Bertie pass!

Thanks to Het-Field for that excellent synopsis. The sadness of it all, is that Bertie had the capacity to be an excellent politician. He had the ability and the charisma. What he lacked in verbosity can be blamed partly on his increasing need to defend what he knew was the indefensible.

He could have won all three of his elections, hands down, on merit. He never needed the aggressive party machine he developed, the aggressive, victim mentality that became such a hallmark of FF today. Lessons were being learnt from the Haughey era. There was no need for the mad giveaway culture, buying three elections that would have been in the bag anyway. He could have done wonders for the country, with the stability that was beginning to be nurtured, and could have rode high on the crest of that.

What did those bankers and developers have over him? Look at their combined legacy! If it were just the few bob he got from the builders, I don't think anyone would have cared. It wasn't much in the greater scheme of things. What was unforgiveable was the lies. He put the whole integrity of the political system on the line, by lying, lying again, and lying to defend those lies. He defended others who should have been sent to the line. Lies is what turned the country against him. Honesty cost nothing, and would have allowed him more room for manoeuvre than he ever appreciated.

He will pay now, and pay dearly. Will the NEXT generation of FF learn from this? It is hard to know. A new, ruthless brutality has been born into Irish life and politics, and sits at odds with the natural instincts of Irish people.

Dirk Gently

To be honest I think you should be more worried about him being the first elected lord mayor of Dublin. It may be seen as a safer bet by him, concentrating the vote with Dubliners.

I suppose it will all depend on the lord mayor office situation and who will be running against him in either the presidential or lord mayor election should it happen. Sadly, without a strong personality against him I can see him being elected to either role. He might fancy the Dublin vote better, especially if he gets any sort of power with the role.

Anyone know what sort of responsibilities the proposed new lord mayor will have, over and above the current position?

some of ye forget that just the other day FF got one in four of 1st preference votes and the Greens took some of the flak for FF.

Bertie was and IS more popular than Cowen. Go ask any of the old hardcore FF supporters. "Sure wasnt the country going great when he was in". I think he could win or at least have a close contest against any opponent. Yes people seem to be that thick I again refer you to the opening line in this post.

Erin Go Brath

It will be a sad day for Ireland if that snake oil salesman ever gets near the Aras. The former Teflon Taoiseach is seriously damaged goods these days, so i believe it unlikely to happen. I really think there will be huge protests, and potentially a riot if he does somehow worm his way into the job. Bertie is in my opinion the vilest leader this country has ever produced, for many reasons some of which have already been outlined in this thread. We need to get him out of public office, not promote him back to high office. Bertie, do your patriotic duty and disappear into the political wilderness!

We live in a democracy. He is entitled to run, as things stand. Those who look at his record on the North and the boom in the economy might vote for him. Those who look at his his record on corruption and of course regard him as laying the foundation for the problems in the economy might not. People might not like his legacy, but let's not drive and horse and coach through basic fundamentals of democracy. If he runs, and people don't like it, just don't vote for him.

MysticalRain

I hope that venal prat retires from politics completely.

jhegarty

Deleted User wrote: »

People might not like his legacy, but let's not drive and horse and coach through basic fundamentals of democracy. If he runs, and people don't like it, just don't vote for him.

You are presuming we get a vote.

solice

jhegarty wrote: »

You are presuming we get a vote.

Back in college for student elections there was always the option of "RON", Reopen Nominations. I think they should bring that in as a safeguard and it would always ensure that even if someone stands unopposed, they must still be elected by the people

True. Well if no party puts up a representative to oppose him, I guess they can all share in the credit when he gets in. Or all take the blame.

Nottoosure

My BIG reason for voting NO to Lisbon, was that I heard on the grapevine, if we got Lisbon Bertie would be a contender for President of Europe (he would have taken the credit, Gawd forbid!!), a good reason for a negative vote, but a reason nonetheless. If I'm guaranteed that Bertie will not be president of Europe, then Lisbon has my blessing.

I heard George Hooke said that if Ahern goes for Mayor of Dublin, he will oppose him (?). President would be sickening, but, at least I and my family, could have the chance to vote him out if he went for president, otherwise, no chance (we're not in Dublin, no chance in Europe).

I believe, (By-the-way) someone gave Maurice Ahern no. 1 in the local election and then drew horns on his head?

Nottoosure

My BIG reason for voting NO to Lisbon, was that I heard on the grapevine, if we got Lisbon Bertie would be a contender for President of Europe (he would have taken the credit, Gawd forbid!!), a good reason for a negative vote, but a reason nonetheless. If I'm guaranteed that Bertie will not be president of Europe, then Lisbon has my blessing.

I heard George Hooke said that if Ahern goes for Mayor of Dublin, he will oppose him (?). President would be sickening, but, at least I and my family, could have the chance to vote him out if he went for president, otherwise, no chance (we're not in Dublin, no chance in Europe).

I believe, (By-the-way) someone gave Maurice Ahern no. 1 in the local election and then drew horns on his head?

mike65

I'll tell you whats scary - the next Presidental election could be a choice between Ahern and Gerry Adams.

amacachi

Nottoosure wrote: »

My BIG reason for voting NO to Lisbon, was that I heard on the grapevine, if we got Lisbon Bertie would be a contender for President of Europe (he would have taken the credit, Gawd forbid!!), a good reason for a negative vote, but a reason nonetheless. If I'm guaranteed that Bertie will not be president of Europe, then Lisbon has my blessing.

Wowsers.

Mr.Micro

Maybe when Mahon delivers his report that will be the end of that sleveen Bertie but as this is Ireland if it is really bad then he is sure to get elected. We had a President once in Mary Robinson and since 2 terms with a dummy in office so Ahern would be the clown.

road_high

I heard Mairead Mc Guiness or Avril Doyle mentioned as possible FG candidates. They would certainly put it up to Bertie in any event, both formidable ladies for sure

I think Bertie is damaged goods now and I think the ordinary joe soap supporters that were the bedrock of Bertie support have melted away as they ahve been heavili hit in the receesion with countless construction job losses and people saddled with huge mortgages. All during the so-called Bertie "golden years".
Just look at what happened Bertie's brother in the by elections..came 5th and that was with Bertie campaigning on his behalf. Would not bode well for a presedential campaign.

IIMII

mike65 wrote: »

the next Presidental election could be .... Gerry Adams.

Whilst I wouldn't be keen on Gerry Adams as Taoiseach by any stretch, I'd say he might make a good President. The President doesn't have any real duties other than to be independent of the Oireachtas and the courts, and even then the President can only refer legislation to the Supreme court. I think he might be a good choice - Bertie would sign off everything without consideration, and take all incoming calls, whether appropriate or not. Adams whatever else anyone might say, would genuinely considered everything from a national rather than personal benefit perspective

Dirk Gently

so we're looking at a possible ahern v adams or a possible ahern v hook for mayor. I think I'd be forced to abstain from either to be honest.

Mr.Micro

clown bag wrote: »

so we're looking at a possible ahern v adams or a possible ahern v hook for mayor. I think I'd be forced to abstain from either to be honest.

Absolutely, Sh**e or Sh**e what a choice.

IIMII

I'd vote vote for Enda if it shut him up for 14 years

old boy

sorry to spoil your party people, but have a bet on the crowley guy from cork, the m.e.p. the wheelchair guy, bookies always try to put a bum favourite up.

Dirk Gently

not a bad bet. He's open to running too (as in doesn't make any attempt to rule it out when asked). If given the nod by FF he would probably do very well. He seems to be very popular, despite his party affiliation.


/ logs onto betfair to have a goo at the odds.

mike65

Makes it sound like Britains Got Talent. The Wheelchair guy will always get the sympathy vote

Sir Oxman

If that animal runs for either Mayor of Dublin or President of Ireland, the decent people of this country must come out in their droves to ensure he doesn't get a sniff of either.

paddyland

I would like to see Bertie run for president. I would like to see the media tear him asunder publicly, dragging up the whole tribunal thing again, which I feel was let quietly slip away far too soon. This time we would have the added benefit of the REAL Bertie legacy, in the collapse of his house of cards economy, and the ruination of half the population.

I am terribly afraid of this man being allowed to slink quietly away into the wallpaper without due public excoriation of his behaviour and his legacy. A presidential run might facilitate this.

I would only hope that FG don't manage to screw that up as well by running a completely ineffectual candidate against him. No matter what opportunity you hand to that bumbling party, they are guaranteed to waste it.

MoominPapa

David Norris for the Aras (I'm sure he knows the way). If only for 7/14 years of no Sunday with Norris

road_high

gambiaman wrote: »

If that animal runs for either Mayor of Dublin or President of Ireland, the decent people of this country must come out in their droves to ensure he doesn't get a sniff of either.

Hear hear

GSF

By the time a presidential election comes around Cowen will be available to stand for FF hopefully!

Heinrich

GSF wrote: »

By the time a presidential election comes around Cowen will be available to stand for FF hopefully!

What a thought!:mad:

bernardo mac

Lovely.The final insult.Imagine that cunning corner boy representing us again.The wiseguy who can hardly make a complete, coherent statement[maybe it's an act] with his cronies,celebrity friends ,developers,traitorous bankers wining and dining at our expense in the park.Eoghan Harris will be there too.Sean Fitzpatrick could resume his role as adviser on monetary matters.FF have promoted the idea that Bertie brought us peace.Civil servants,of course are paid to make the tea and sandwiches.Bertie brought economic ruin and being the cute political animal [rat]deserted ship before s*** hit the fan.Eh luvly.

goldenbrown

might be for michael obrien the abuse survivor who was on questions and answers former FF councillor and lord mayor of watereford- to go forward as a presidential candidate and give voters an opportunity to use their vote to register our disdain with the child rape that has now joined the vikings and the normans in irish history

deadhead13

I had hoped that the Mahon Tribunal Report would have blown any slim chance Bertie had of become President completely out of the water by now. But it is being delayed by legal challenges. The next Presidential election isn't due until the end of 2011, so there is still plenty of time.

Hillel

IIMII wrote: »

I'd vote vote for Enda if it shut him up for 14 years

I'd vote for Enda to make way for Richard Bruton.

mike65

goldenbrown wrote: »

might be for michael obrien the abuse survivor who was on questions and answers former FF councillor and lord mayor of waterford- to go forward as a presidential candidate and give voters an opportunity to use their vote to register our disdain with the child rape that has now joined the vikings and the normans in irish history

Twas Clonmel I doubt that fella would want to end up a totem in the Aras regarding institutional abuse

Red_Marauder

mike65 wrote: »

Makes it sound like Britains Got Talent. The Wheelchair guy will always get the sympathy vote

I actually think he's a very talented politician. But wasn't it Bertie Ahern who said of him that "a man in a chair always gets a seat"!

ninty9er

solice wrote: »

Back in college for student elections there was always the option of "RON", Reopen Nominations. I think they should bring that in as a safeguard and it would always ensure that even if someone stands unopposed, they must still be elected by the people

Depends on the college. We don't have one because people take the piss in some places where there is one.

IIMII wrote: »

Whilst I wouldn't be keen on Gerry Adams as Taoiseach by any stretch, I'd say he might make a good President. The President doesn't have any real duties other than to be independent of the Oireachtas and the courts, and even then the President can only refer legislation to the Supreme court. I think he might be a good choice - Bertie would sign off everything without consideration, and take all incoming calls, whether appropriate or not. Adams whatever else anyone might say, would genuinely considered everything from a national rather than personal benefit perspective

Adams would be slighlty problematic considering the travel restrictions on his passport!

old boy wrote: »

sorry to spoil your party people, but have a bet on the crowley guy from cork, the m.e.p. the wheelchair guy, bookies always try to put a bum favourite up.

+1

In any case. The President is essentially the Irish Ambassador to everywhere. Bertie, for all that can be said about him, is very well received internationally and voting for someone else for the sake of it, whatever your views on his actions up to now, wouldn't necessarily be in the best interests of Ireland.

Mr.Micro

ninty9er wrote: »

In any case. The President is essentially the Irish Ambassador to everywhere. Bertie, for all that can be said about him, is very well received internationally and voting for someone else for the sake of it, whatever your views on his actions up to now, wouldn't necessarily be in the best interests of Ireland.

Unfortunately up to now Bertie only ever had his own and his cronies interests at heart, so the best interests of Ireland would be served by not electing Ahern. It would be better to leave the post vacant if an honest citizen could not be found to do the job. Why recycle old politicians, there are some things beyond repair.

Het-Field

ninty9er wrote: »

Depends on the college. We don't have one because people take the piss in some places where there is one.


Adams would be slighlty problematic considering the travel restrictions on his passport!


+1

In any case. The President is essentially the Irish Ambassador to everywhere. Bertie, for all that can be said about him, is very well received internationally and voting for someone else for the sake of it, whatever your views on his actions up to now, wouldn't necessarily be in the best interests of Ireland.

If the role is simply ambassadorial, then why not abolish it ? Furthermore, if it is a representative role, then it should be for those who deserve it.

Bertie has dragged the name of FF, and politics (more importantly) through the mud. He has no entitlement to high office based on his former reception. If people vote for him, its a vindication of his chequered legacy.

deadhead13

ninty9er wrote: »

The President is essentially the Irish Ambassador to everywhere. Bertie, for all that can be said about him, is very well received internationally and voting for someone else for the sake of it, whatever your views on his actions up to now, wouldn't necessarily be in the best interests of Ireland.

The removal of Bertie Ahern from public office would, in fact, be "in the best interest of Ireland".