Discussion of Dieting Drugs

neuro-praxis

Am I the only one who is very uncomfortable with the constant discussion of weight loss drugs in this forum?

They have nothing to do with good nutrition or healthy diet and nobody becomes thin and develops healthy habits because of them.

I would suggest that we ban discussion of those drugs...or at least limit it to one stickied thread, and keep our focus on eating lots of natural wholefoods and exercising regularly.

Davei141

I agree wholeheartedly, but it's unfortunate that the word "diet" attracts people looking for fat burner pills and lipotrim sachets. How about having it as just the nutrition forum.

neuro-praxis

Maybe you are right there Davei141. Some of you will remember there was a lot of controversy in the beginning about whether or not this forum should ever exist - for reasons like the one we are discussing now.

I really enjoy this forum however and do not wish to see it swamped by any more discussions of drug-taking for weight loss. Surely that is not what we are about?

metamorphosis

I agree 100%. Why people dont regonise that they are no way viable long-term is beyond me. I mean if they did work obesity would not exist!!!

And these tablets do not make people change their relationshiop with food. I mean a lot of people take these tablets and still eat ****e. How is that healthy? How is that sustainable long term?

Problem is that people want a quick fix. They want to lose 20lbs in 4 weeks and so on ... pure and utter laziness. Bit of hard work. I lost 5 stone through diet and exercise so i cant stand execuses like ' il never lose weight' or 'i just cant eat healthy'. Boolocks! Grow up. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Rant over

Davei141

ULstudent wrote: »

I agree 100%. Why people dont regonise that they are no way viable long-term is beyond me.

A sad fact is most do recognise they are not viable long term but don't care, they care about the holiday coming up or the wedding/birthday in 2 months etc then go back to where they started. Repeat till blue in the face.

*Honey*

I totally agree - I find the pills discussion scary, people are being fleeced left, right and centre and that doesn't take into account what damage they might be doing to their bodies. I've a lot of weight to lose and I'm doing it in a way that I can live with long-term... I know I sure as hell couldn't live long term thinking all I had to eat was a shake or a bowl of cereal all day nor is it possible to pop some pills and hope to God you don't fart for fear of crapping yourself in public!!!!

Losing weight is actually really easy ... it takes time and an effort to make the right decision all the time but it's totally doable. People live in a quick fix society these days and have lost the ability to understand the concept of waiting, and working towards a goal. They want things now, right now. The reality is that it took some time to put the weight on, it makes sense that it'll take some time to take it off too.

lalee17

The problem is people want an easy way out, without bothering to change their lifestyle, diet, etc. As ULstudent said, it's complete and utter laziness. For shame!

rubadub

There is a bit much and some threads have been closed in the past, some is spam or shilling too. Boards has become stricter on discussions of medical issues/advice. I suppose many might fall under that, but then there are other more grey areas. If anybody has suggestions for "rules" and descriptions I would like to hear them. You will hear people discussing green tea etc, which could fall under some peoples definition of a "diet drug", but many here would consider it fine to discuss.

Davei141 wrote: »

it's unfortunate that the word "diet" attracts people looking for fat burner pills and lipotrim sachets. How about having it as just the nutrition forum.

Yes, many equate the word diet and dieting with starving themselves, or going on a short course of food they do not like and would not ordinarily eat. Diet should be for life, it is easy to find foods you like which are healthy, part of the problem is even realising what is and what is not "good", which can be a surprise to many.

Some charter rules already in place.

neuro-praxis wrote: »

3.
Bear in mind we are not professional nutritionists and we are not doctors, so don't look for medical advice. Please seek advice from your Dr. or a Nutritionist before embarking on any major overhaul of your eating habits.

4.
There will be zero-tolerance of any pro-ana type topics or crash dieting. If you want to discuss your cabbage and rubber band diet that's alright but don't expect much support (or success for that matter). This forum is to promote healthy and varied eating - not to advise you in how to drop a stone in a week.

6.
Spam will not be tolerated. We do not permit advertising of miracle weight-loss drugs and you can expect a ban if you do.

I have pointed out number 4 on a few occasions before.

lizzyvera

Everyone is saying that they're awful, especially orlistat. I wouldn't consider them miracle weight-loss drugs- exploding runs and palpitations don't sound magical. They are approved and doctors prescribe them. Obviously it's healthier, and more pleasant, to eat healthily and exercise but if someone needs to lose two stone for an operation or because it's making them severely depressed, sometimes doctors have to speed things up.

I think there should be more emphasis on the fact that when you don't eat crap, you lose your taste for it so if you bear with the first month it will come more naturally. Also, maybe a bit more on working exercise into your normal routine. I always did that and didn't put on weight, but after getting the bus for the bout of bad weather in spring my weight did creep up.

The_Conductor

I concur wholeheartedly neuro-praxis, the content of the forum and the manner in which many topics are handled has evolved from when you were moderator- sometimes for the better- but often for the worse. There is a recurrent theme popping up- again and again- concerning the use of various dieting drugs- but even more worrying in my eyes- discussing the 'beneficial side effects of certain otc or prescribed drugs towards assisting in increasing metabolism and burning fat'. Its even reached the stage where some people who are discussing this in the med forum or the LTI forum- and are banned for discussing these topics- magically pop up in here a few days later, and continue to their hearts content.

Its all well and good to state in the forum charter that 'we are not medical professionals or dieticians' and suggest people consult a GP or dietician prior to crashdieting etc- but this nice little rule has very little bearing on the likes of the recent discussion thread about the relative merits of various bronchial drugs in assisting in lowering body fat percentages.......

Its definitely a first step to try to shepherd these type threads/posts into a common area- but you really have to ask why the likes of those threads are being tolerated at all (particularly in light that many of the protagonists have already been banned from other fora for insisting on posting on these matters).

If you compare the forum charter to a sample of the threads on display- its very obvious that the original raison d'etre of the forum has at very least evolved- though personally I think its been more usurped by certain posters, rather than the forum itself evolving.....?

Personally I think discussion of weight loss drugs should be banned from all fora- diet and nutrition included. The discussion of a healthy lifestyle to include healthy eating with appropriate exercise should be encouraged to the fore.

I am aware that I have antagonised one of the forum moderators with my comments on a previous occasion- so I'll leave it at that.

SMcCarrick

g'em

Thanks everyone for your constructive feedback - neuro-praxis I appreciate you starting the thread, I've been reading it with interest since it started and I was waiting to see what the general concensus was.

As for whether we blanket ban discussion of these drugs... well that bit I'm not decided on yet (but I'm leaning towards agreeing with those who do not want to have them allowed)

smccarrick wrote: »

Its even reached the stage where some people who are discussing this in the med forum or the LTI forum- and are banned for discussing these topics- magically pop up in here a few days later, and continue to their hearts content.

I never know whether you are intentionally being abrasive.

I didn't know that posters were banned from these fora for discussing those drugs. Perhaps a quick PM to myself or rubadub about this wouldn't have gone astray.

smccarrick wrote:

but this nice little rule has very little bearing on the likes of the recent discussion thread about the relative merits of various bronchial drugs in assisting in lowering body fat percentages.......

I questioned the ephedrine thread myself, but ephedrine is not illegal, and there was no advice on how to use it, simply anecdotal discussion. If I made the wrong call so be it and I apologise.

To be frank smccarrick I'm finding it hard to take on board some of what you're saying as it sounds like you've storing all this info and just waiting for an opportunity to share.

This forum has very certainly changed since its inception - and you're right, it's not always for the better. But we are simply the janitors and if the users by and large don't want discussion of these drugs then so be it and I will have no problem addressing that but we do not dictate the direction or content of the forum.

rubadub

I would welcome any response to this

rubadub wrote: »

If anybody has suggestions for "rules" and descriptions I would like to hear them. You will hear people discussing green tea etc, which could fall under some peoples definition of a "diet drug", but many here would consider it fine to discuss.

Talking with g'em I was considering a ban on discussion of any products which are only available in pharmacies. This would include all the OTC drugs like that one similar to xenical, but would not include ones readily available in health food shops, or supermarkets, e.g. green tea, caffeine, vinegar pills. It is a grey area and many things could be described as foodstuffs.

It would also catch other products where manufacturers have decided that their product is not suitable for people to buy without advice from a pharmacist. Some products though not technically OTC are not available outside a chemist. This possibly could also extend to products only available in pharmacies or online, where people should be really questioning the makers themselves who have deemed it necessary to restrict sales -so apparently think guidance from themselves or a pharmacist is necessary.

The_Conductor

rubadub wrote: »

I would welcome any response to this


Talking with g'em I was considering a ban on discussion of any products which are only available in pharmacies. This would include all the OTC drugs like that one similar to xenical, but would not include ones readily available in health food shops, or supermarkets, e.g. green tea, caffeine, vinegar pills. It is a grey area and many things could be described as foodstuffs.

It would also catch other products where manufacturers have decided that their product is not suitable for people to buy without advice from a pharmacist. Some products though not technically OTC are not available outside a chemist. This possibly could also extend to products only available in pharmacies or online, where people should be really questioning the makers themselves who have deemed it necessary to restrict sales -so apparently think guidance from themselves or a pharmacist is necessary.

I think this is an emminently sensible course of action. Personally I would move away from the likes of the vinegar pills etc altogether- its a pandoras box and very much a movable feast- people are liable to try to lump things into the health food shop category- when they have absolutely no merit in being there.

jdivision

I think a sticky is the way to go, that way at least people would bad experiences can comment too and not let people think that everything will be fine from taking them.

g'em

smccarrick wrote: »

Personally I would move away from the likes of the vinegar pills etc altogether- its a pandoras box and very much a movable feast- people are liable to try to lump things into the health food shop category- when they have absolutely no merit in being there.

But vinegar pills are just that - vinegar. I see what you're saying about how it could lead to discussion of other things but at the same time where do we draw the line - ban all products that have been linked to weight-loss??

Perhaps I'm being a little naive, but I'm crediting the average poster with the knowledge to be able to differentiate a product that is "medicinal" and one that may aid weight loss without itself being pharmaceutical in nature.

The_Conductor

I don't think you're being naive, perhaps I'm just terribly cynical- I've just seen every possibly devious tactic on the part of some posters- to get around forum rules which any logical sane person would consider to be pretty black and white in nature. Vinegar is vinegar- certainly- but you'll find someone with some variant with other ingredients in it- then someone else with precursor pills- and before you know it there is a full blown discussion about banned substances- or the abuse of readily available substances for purposes other than their intended use.

I know you're background- you'd have a pretty good idea of the science behind many things that might come up- what I am saying though is more that a personal understanding of the topic (or product, or claim etc) on the part of a moderator- should not necessarily open that particular topic to discussion (totally aside from whether its legal or ethical etc). What happens when that person is off the net for a few days?

If there is definetely to be a slimming section- perhaps have it as a sticky and corall all associated posts there- but keep an eye out for anyone who advises a pre-existing medical condition, medication or other reasons that might be given where run-of-the-mill advice might not be appropriate. It can be very worrying when you see some of the advice offered to diabetics for example (and there several different types of diabetics- which very often is not appreciated by a casual poster).

Kind regards,

Shane

rubadub

smccarrick wrote: »

I've just seen every possibly devious tactic on the part of some posters- to get around forum rules which any logical sane person would consider to be pretty black and white in nature.

Yes, along with specific rules it is handy to have some vague ones too so you can say in your opinion it falls under a rule. It should not be like a court room with them getting away on technicalities, common sense should prevail.

The_Conductor

rubadub wrote: »

Yes, along with specific rules it is handy to have some vague ones too so you can say in your opinion it falls under a rule. It should not be like a court room with them getting away on technicalities, common sense should prevail.

Thats partially the problem- common sense very often does not prevail (as is evidenced by the complaints in the helpdesk and moderators being hauled up to explain decisions- which often have been totally misrepresented). I had one poster recently get help in the legal forum on how to post a question in another forum and then kick up all sorts of a fuss when I banned him. Maybe I am getting cynical- I assume the worse case scenario- and am pleasantly surprised when it doesn't come to pass........

metamorphosis

g'em wrote: »

But vinegar pills are just that - vinegar. I see what you're saying about how it could lead to discussion of other things but at the same time where do we draw the line - ban all products that have been linked to weight-loss??

Perhaps I'm being a little naive, but I'm crediting the average poster with the knowledge to be able to differentiate a product that is "medicinal" and one that may aid weight loss without itself being pharmaceutical in nature.

Its a very grey area. I dont really see a need to ban discussion on thinks like apple cider vinegar or green tea tablets or vinegar pilss etc. things like Alli, lipotrim etc are the culprits. But i understand that some people will find it hard to diffrentiate between the two - one 'medicinal' and the other 'pharmaceutical'. Where apple cider does not make you lose 10ibs in a week, lipotrim can but peoples image and perception of these can be extremley skewed. Its not black and white and that's a pity

I agree that a sticky may be the way foward ... i dunno ... hell i dunno if this post even contibuted anything new to the discussion!!

ladiee24

delighted this topic has been brought up only this weekend i had an hour long discussion with a friend trying to presuade her from taking the latest pill. i have always felt for g'em & rubadub when these threads are started. as far as mods go i think they really are open to different forms of healthy eating & exercise that helps most of us boardies with keeping healthy & tring to stay fit As has been mentioned previously it really is a difficult one to try & mod without placing a blanket ban on diet drugs dicussions.

lets face it if someone really wants to loose weight & are commited to doing so it will happen it takes hard work & determination. what most of these people seem to be looking for is the stupid fad answer that won't help long term at all. i do feel a sticky would probably be the easiest way for this to be moderated but as with other threads it will be very hard to moderate personal opinions be those opinions naive or not.

eclectichoney

ULstudent wrote: »

Its a very grey area. I dont really see a need to ban discussion on thinks like apple cider vinegar or green tea tablets or vinegar pilss etc. things like Alli, lipotrim etc are the culprits. But i understand that some people will find it hard to diffrentiate between the two - one 'medicinal' and the other 'pharmaceutical'. Where apple cider does not make you lose 10ibs in a week, lipotrim can but peoples image and perception of these can be extremley skewed. Its not black and white and that's a pity

I agree that a sticky may be the way foward ... i dunno ... hell i dunno if this post even contibuted anything new to the discussion!!

I agree with this pretty much. I mean if you ban discussion of green tea - what next? Weight watchers bars and meals? Food items should definitely be allowed to be discussed in my opinion, in some format whether it's a sticky or whatever.

The one good thing about allowing discussion of stuff like Lipotrim is that people will probably try it / use it anyway if they want vbut reading negative experiences of others on the forum re. side effects etc. may help them to see that there are other options out there for weight loss - e.g. a healthy nutritional diet. But I agree that it must be a nightmare to mod stuff like that, especially when you are supposed to get a pharmacist's assessment / advice etc before taking it.

rubadub

ULstudent wrote: »

Where apple cider does not make you lose 10ibs in a week, lipotrim can but peoples image and perception of these can be extremley skewed.

Yes. Lipotrim would not be allowed as it is pharmacy only. But it also leaves open stuff like the maple syrup diet. The charter mentions crash diets, perhaps this could have a definition to stop borderline cases which could have arguments.

Almost every reasonable nutritional site says 1-2lb fat loss per week is a safe level, so perhaps any diet/pill/plan to lose more than 2lb should not be allowed? Or maybe 3lb, and/or a daily deficit of over 1000kcal or 1500kcal (i.e. in theory 1500kcal deficit would cause 3lb fat loss per week)

I am not talking of banning WWers posting "I lost 3lb this week", but it could catch diets/plans using pretty benign stuff like green tea, yet which encourage crash diet fat loss. This would leave green tea open for discussion in other threads.

neuro-praxis

Perhaps it would be a good idea to remove what I originally wrote about "cabbage and rubber band diets" being acceptable discussion-fodder. At the time I considered it hard, and felt that if somebody were to for example, go on the cabbage soup diet, it wouldn't last more than a couple of days and it wouldn't succeed, but similarly, it wouldn't harm their bodies.

However, this kind of diet is crash dieting which is rightly banned, and therefore falls into the same category as drug-taking for weight-loss as far as I am concerned. So why not delete that line rubadub if it helps clarify things?

Discussion of food products should not be banned in my opinion. I really don't eat processed foods any more but it took me a long time to get to that place, and most people do eat them. They are not optimum for health but in moderation they are not in any way harmful. Things like apple cider vinegar and green tea are not controversial, as is being suggested here. They are not harmful and we all know they honestly make no difference to weight loss one way or the other.

Prescribed drugs for weight-loss or drugs ordered online are really not what this forum is about, as they have nothing to do with nutrition or diet. This is not the nutrition and dieting forum - dieting being what these drugs are associated with.

Can someone explain to me the reasoning behind why discussions of these drugs are tolerated? Why can't we just discuss food here?

g'em

neuro-praxis wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the reasoning behind why discussions of these drugs are tolerated? Why can't we just discuss food here?

In all honesty I don't think either myself or rubadub ever made the decision not to discuss them, hence I'm glad the issue is being talked about now - I wasn't sure what the general feeling was on them one way or another.

I would absolutely agree with what you said above though - food products and their derivatives are fine; pharmaceutical drugs, not fine.

g'em

Alrighty, I've made the following change to the Charter:

4.
There will be zero-tolerance of any pro-ana topics, discussions of pharmaceutical weight-loss aids or crash dieting. This forum is to promote healthy and varied eating - not to advise you in how to drop a stone in a week.

It's still left reasonably broad to allow for some Moderator discretion when deciding if threads are allowable or not. Does that sound fair?

kwalshe

*Honey* wrote: »

The reality is that it took some time to put the weight on, it makes sense that it'll take some time to take it off too.

Simply brilliantly put...

neuro-praxis

That sounds good to me. Let's see how it pans out. Thanks very much to the mods for their response!

metamorphosis

Cant really get fairer that that g'em!

Sir Humphrey

g'em wrote: »

Alrighty, I've made the following change to the Charter:

4. There will be zero-tolerance of any pro-ana topics, discussions of pharmaceutical weight-loss aids or crash dieting. This forum is to promote healthy and varied eating - not to advise you in how to drop a stone in a week.

It's still left reasonably broad to allow for some Moderator discretion when deciding if threads are allowable or not. Does that sound fair?

Just wondering what qualifications the moderators have when it comes to deciding for other adults people what is "healthy and varied" eating?

This has a terrible whiff of the thought police about it but maybe there is some expertise among the moderators that I am unaware of.

The_Conductor

While not moderators on this forum Cathymoran has a Masters in Food Science, and I am a qualified nutritionalist. Other posters in this forum include a paediatrician, a gastroenterologist and several doctors of varying disciplines. The moderators themselves have a wide and varied background- I'm sure they will be more than happy to introduce themselves in due course.

Macha

g'em wrote: »

It's still left reasonably broad to allow for some Moderator discretion when deciding if threads are allowable or not. Does that sound fair?

Sounds good. I think it's important that this forum doesn't lend any credibility to these type of products.

ladiee24

Sir Humphrey wrote: »

Just wondering what qualifications the moderators have when it comes to deciding for other adults people what is "healthy and varied" eating?

This has a terrible whiff of the thought police about it but maybe there is some expertise among the moderators that I am unaware of.

why don't you have a read over the charter & you'll get a glimpse of g'ems background & you only have to read a couple of posts from rubadub to see he's got a great understanding of nutrition.

whilst i can see your point at looking for the expertise from the mods they don't claim to be experts. i've yet to come across a moderator on boards to do so.

with regards to this particular thread i don't think anyone moderator or not would agree that these "diet drugs" are healthy or varied.

g'em

Sir Humphrey wrote: »

Just wondering what qualifications the moderators have when it comes to deciding for other adults people what is "healthy and varied" eating?

My background is in the Biological Sciences (to MSc level) and as an Internationally competitive weightlifter I'm interested mostly in the Sports Nutrition side of things.

Sir Humphrey wrote:

This has a terrible whiff of the thought police about it but maybe there is some expertise among the moderators that I am unaware of.

Sorry it appears this way but the changes that have been made really just reflect the board wide policy on medicinal products.

If you look around the forum there are plenty of debates about what constitutes a healthy diet and it's something we like to encourage - there's no "one fits all" plan. But we do have to draw the line at discussing products which can come under the vlcd/ crash-diet umbrella as you'll generally be hard pushed to find any things that could be described as "healthy" about them.

Sir Humphrey

ladiee24 wrote: »

whilst i can see your point at looking for the expertise from the mods they don't claim to be experts. i've yet to come across a moderator on boards to do so.

I would say that some people here are - at least implicitly - claiming a level of expertise. On the one hand I have little reason to question bona fides, but on the other hand it is an anonymous forum with no way of verifying expertise or of identifying possible vested interests.

In contrast, people are regularly told to consult a Doctor if they are disucussing medical symptoms on these boards. You don't get anyone who says "I'm a Doctor and here's my advice" in the way that people seem to give off the cuff nutritional advice without any notion of food intolerances, allergies etc. It's just that inconsistency that I am highlighting, I won't be making more of an issue of it than that.

The_Conductor

Sir Humphrey wrote: »

I would say that some people here are - at least implicitly - claiming a level of expertise. On the one hand I have little reason to question bona fides, but on the other hand it is an anonymous forum with no way of verifying expertise or of identifying possible vested interests.

In contrast, people are regularly told to consult a Doctor if they are disucussing medical symptoms on these boards. You don't get anyone who says "I'm a Doctor and here's my advice" in the way that people seem to give off the cuff nutritional advice without any notion of food intolerances, allergies etc. It's just that inconsistency that I am highlighting, I won't be making more of an issue of it than that.

It depends.
We have a very visible dentist who mods the dental issues forum, 4 docs over in health and sci, 3 people who have identified themselves as pharmacists etc.
There are different rules associated with different fora. Its the duty of anyone posting in a forum to make sure they have read the charter associated with that forum.

Astrogeek

A bit off the topic, but I noticed people mentioning green tea with diet drugs?
Green tea isn't bad for you is it? Can too much of it be as bad for you as diet drugs?