Licence Renewal?

Keelan

Well folks, whats the craic this July on the renewel of firearm certs?
Is it business as usual, or is it a 3 year one?
Their is talk of us going to the post office to renew, how true is this?

Cheers,

Keelan.

Sparks

Short answer, noone knows.
Longer answer, noone knows, but the Minister thinks he does and has given the following instructions out:

Note for FCP on Transition Phase for the Introduction of the 3 Year Firearms Certificate
9 June 2009
The Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 is due to be commenced in
early July 2009 and will facilitate the enactment of the remaining sections of the
Criminal Justice Act 2006 thereby introducing the three year firearms licence. This new
legislation will make provide for the transition phase during which time all current
licences, which are due to expire on 31 July 2009 will be extended. The extensions will
be from a minimum of 3 months up to a maximum of 12 months: i.e. until at least 1
November 2009 up to the latest 31 July 2010. These extensions will be assigned on a
random basis to facilitate the phasing in of the new 3 year firearms licence and will
ensure that all licences will not expire on the same date in the future. In early July 2009
the Garda Commissioner will write to each licence holder and will outline the period of
time that the licence has been extended for. He will also invite the holder when they
can apply for a new firearms licence - up to 3 months prior to the date of expiry of the
extended licence.
The letter from the Commissioner must be attached to the existing firearms licence and
carried by the licence holder. It will be recognised by the Garda Síochána as being a
valid licence for the extension period outlined in the letter. These extended licences will
be free of charge. All existing firearms licence holders will not now be required to renew
their licences on form PC20 and instead will be required to apply under the new
legislation - on the new application form FCA1 - following the expiry of their extended
licences. The application form is available at www.garda.ie
The collection of fees for firearms licences will be outsourced and no money will, in
future, be accepted at Garda Stations for firearms licences. The Garda Commissioner
will shortly publish Guidelines on firearms licensing. These Guidelines will be available
to the public and the Gardaí alike and should be of assistance to all firearms licence
holders during this period of major change in the firearms licensing processes.

Longer answer again, Noone knows, but the Minister thinks he does, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's what's actually going to happen.

Croppy Boy

I received this by e-mail yesterday

Note for FCP on Transition Phase for the Introduction of the
3 Year Firearms Certificate
9 June 2009

The Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 is due to be commenced in early July 2009 and will facilitate the enactment of the remaining sections of the Criminal Justice Act 2006 thereby introducing the three year firearms licence. This new legislation will make provide for the transition phase during which time all current licences, which are due to expire on 31 July 2009 will be extended. The extensions will be from a minimum of 3 months up to a maximum of 12 months: i.e. until at least 1 November 2009 up to the latest 31 July 2010. These extensions will be assigned on a random basis to facilitate the phasing in of the new 3 year firearms licence and will ensure that all licences will not expire on the same date in the future. In early July 2009 the Garda Commissioner will write to each licence holder and will outline the period of time that the licence has been extended for. He will also invite the holder when they can apply for a new firearms licence - up to 3 months prior to the date of expiry of the extended licence.
The letter from the Commissioner must be attached to the existing firearms licence and carried by the licence holder. It will be recognised by the Garda Síochána as being a valid licence for the extension period outlined in the letter. These extended licences will be free of charge. All existing firearms licence holders will not now be required to renew their licences on form PC20 and instead will be required to apply under the new legislation - on the new application form FCA1 - following the expiry of their extended licences. The application form is available at www.garda.ie
The collection of fees for firearms licences will be outsourced and no money will, in future, be accepted at Garda Stations for firearms licences. The Garda Commissioner will shortly publish Guidelines on firearms licensing. These Guidelines will be available to the public and the Gardaí alike and should be of assistance to all firearms licence holders during this period of major change in the firearms licensing processes.

Our man in Havana

Interesting times ahead.

instead will be required to apply under the new legislation - on the new application form FCA1 - following the expiry of their extended licences.

This could put people into a spot of bother. What are they supposed to do while they are waiting for their new licence?

rrpc

Bond-007 wrote: »

Interesting times ahead.

This could put people into a spot of bother. What are they supposed to do while they are waiting for their new licence?

extended licence

That bit there. Extended. Licence. It's in the bill.

Subject to all the other caveats mentioned by Sparks.

chem

Lads it seems the cards are stacked against us. Unless the whole of the bill is chopped up and started again. The minister has played a good hand of chess. As I read it he has left several back doors open for a ban on anything he likes. Resticted list for one (which also includes restricted ammo used in restricted firearms). size, model (black guns with pistol grips) and action of the firearm. He can make up the laws as seen fit by the minister (for public protection). Give guidelines as seen fit. Restrict dealers in what they can deal in. Make everyone buy from a RFD and place any security meassure he likes on anyone with a licence.

Anyone else feel like they are been backed into a corner?

tonysopprano

rrpc wrote: »

That bit there. Extended. Licence. It's in the bill.

Subject to all the other caveats mentioned by Sparks.

What about 3 years down the road?. you can apply 3 months in advance (in the bill 30(3)(8)) and it can take up to 3 months to process 30(3)(9),
but you are away/on holidays/in hospital etc and only apply 1 month or less in advance(still totally legal 30(3)(8)) . What then happens if your FAC is not regranted (note not renewed) in time?

Our man in Havana

Exactly Tony. Excellent point there.

Keelan

Im confused.........:D

Sparks

Tony, it's three months to say yay or nay to an application, but I think you're worrying about a renewal? Or did I read you wrong?

Our man in Havana

The way I see it is that we must make a fresh application prior to the extended licence expiry, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

tonysopprano

32(6) says an "application for renewal" shall be in the prescribed form. IE you have to reapply for every renewal

Sparks

Not sure what section 32 that is Tony, but here's what I think you're talking about, from the current section 3 of the firearms act:

(8) The holder of a firearm certificate may apply for renewal of the certificate within three months before it ceases to be in force.

(9) A decision on an application for a firearm certificate or its renewal shall be given within 3 months from the date on which the applicant submitted a completed application form.

And if that's what you're talking about, then yes, it's possible you could have an overlap there.
At which point, you either get a letter from the local super saying you're authorised to have the firearm, or you check it into the local RFD until the paperwork clears...

(you don't have to reapply every three years though, it's a renewal same as normal except for this year, if the bill passes as is and on time. But that won't help much with the example you're thinking of).

tonysopprano

32.—Section 9 (as substituted by section 53 of the Act of 2006) of
the Act of 1964 is amended by the substitution for subsection (6) of
the following:
“(6) An application for renewal of a firearm certificate shall

be in the prescribed form.”.

CJA2006 made it necessaryto re-apply for renewal and it is amended as above

tonysopprano

Seems that i am not the only one worrying.

• [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]We must secure what we have. To this end we must be sure that the new guidelines mentioned do not make it impossible for a practicing sports shooter to relicense his or her equipment.
[/FONT][/FONT]

rrpc

tonysopprano wrote: »

32

.—Section 9 (as substituted by section 53 of the Act of 2006) of

the Act of 1964 is amended by the substitution for subsection (6) of
the following:
“(6) An application for renewal of a firearm certificate shall

be in the prescribed form.”.

CJA2006 made it necessaryto re-apply for renewal and it is amended as above

The reason that's being changed is that since the fee collection is being farmed out the other bit about being accompanied by the prescribed fee is not needed. The final subsection about applying one month in advance has also been amended to three months in advance under section 30 of the CJA 2006.

So renewals need only be on the prescribed form. The use of the word 'application' does not mean what you think it means, it's correct use of the english licence and has always been in the firearms acts in relation to renewals. You apply to renew your driving licence, your passport etc.

The statement from the NASRPC is about possibly onerous conditions in the guidelines that may make it well nigh impossible to renew centre fire pistol licences for those who currently hold them. That's not to say there's going to be such conditions, merely that they are wroking to ensure there won't be.

Keelan

Thanks all.
So basicly, its going to be harder to get a cert every 3 years, then it would have been before?
What about this thing about going to the post office to renew them, is this true?

Keelan.

Our man in Havana

You will go to the post office to pay for the licence. You will end up sending the receipt and your renewal form to the Gardaí.

rrpc

Keelan wrote: »

Thanks all.
So basicly, its going to be harder to get a cert every 3 years, then it would have been before?
Keelan.

No. Just the first time.

Keelan

Thanks very much folks.

Keelan.

Sparks

Bond-007 wrote: »

You will go to the post office to pay for the licence. You will end up sending the receipt and your renewal form to the Gardaí.

Or the other way round? I can't see anything anywhere that says what happens first or how An Post and the Gardai communicate about fee payments.
Or about the security measures for personal data within An Post for that matter.

Grizzly 45

UFFFFF...Can anyone see another govermental shambles with loss of critical personal data in the making here????:(:(

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Or the other way round? I can't see anything anywhere that says what happens first or how An Post and the Gardai communicate about fee payments.
Or about the security measures for personal data within An Post for that matter.

I think you get your renewal notice, pay for it in the post office and bring your receipt to the Gardai to get your licence. That way makes sense to me anyway.

The bit about security has me scratching my head. Currently your renewal notice (a very obviously Garda produced envelope) goes through the postal system the same time every year en route to your home address.

The new system will have a renewal notice going through the postal system to your home address at different times of the year allowing you to go to the post office and pay for your renewals.

If you can't trust the post office to keep your data secure now, then you could never trust them.

tbh anybody who wants to know who has firearms in a particular area only needs to hang around the local Garda station in August. My local even had a helpful notice on the door for when it was closed (seemingly all the time) instructing people to drop their renewals in the letter box, and of course letting everyone else know what was going on.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

I think you get your renewal notice, pay for it in the post office and bring your receipt to the Gardai to get your licence. That way makes sense to me anyway.

It does make sense - but like I said, I've seen nothing that says that's whats going to happen, and I don't really have a lot of faith that what seems obvious to people who've spent twenty years around firearms will seem so obvious to Gardai who haven't...

The bit about security has me scratching my head. Currently your renewal notice (a very obviously Garda produced envelope) goes through the postal system the same time every year en route to your home address.

Yes, but the record that such a letter was sent to your home is kept by the Gardai, not An Post. Whereas with this new system, they'll have to keep a record of who's paid (just to be sure noone forges the receipt from An Post).

If you can't trust the post office to keep your data secure now, then you could never trust them.

I still vividly recall being given a severe dressing-down in Comber rifle club by a member there because as PRO for the NTSA, I'd sent their NTSA newsletters to them in the post with the NTSA's seal on the address labels. My object lesson that day was that trusting your postman was a luxury that not all of us can enjoy, and frankly, I don't see how our postmen are so different from N.I. postmen.

tbh anybody who wants to know who has firearms in a particular area only needs to hang around the local Garda station in August. My local even had a helpful notice on the door for when it was closed (seemingly all the time) instructing people to drop their renewals in the letter box, and of course letting everyone else know what was going on.

Yup, I know exactly what you mean.
On the other hand, just because you've accidentally set one of your legs on fire doesn't mean that you won't mind if I set the other one on fire as well
Or less prosaicly, I'd rather fix the security problems with the Gardai than introduce a new source for them via An Post.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

It does make sense - but like I said, I've seen nothing that says that's whats going to happen, and I don't really have a lot of faith that what seems obvious to people who've spent twenty years around firearms will seem so obvious to Gardai who haven't...

You're forgetting that all this has been discussed at length around the FCP table with the Gardai present. You might not have faith in the Gardai to understand all the nuances, but those around the table would have equal or greater experience than you. No offence

Yes, but the record that such a letter was sent to your home is kept by the Gardai, not An Post. Whereas with this new system, they'll have to keep a record of who's paid (just to be sure noone forges the receipt from An Post).

You're assuming that such records will be kept under your name and address, what if it's kept under your pulse ID?

Grizzly 45

The bit about security has me scratching my head. Currently your renewal notice (a very obviously Garda produced envelope) goes through the postal system the same time every year en route to your home address

Err,not in my case it doesnt!I make a point of specifically calling up to my Garda station and collecting them.For that very reason above.If they arent ready,I ask the lads to gimme a call and I'll call up for them ,or one of them drops them down when they go home. A once off example I admit,but it does give more security to me and if implimented at least Gardai would be able to put names to faces.

The new system will have a renewal notice going through the postal system to your home address at different times of the year allowing you to go to the post office and pay for your renewals.

That's fine..BUT I/we are more worried about the lists of the data that will be kept in An Post,By whom?Who will be authorised to use it?What is an Posts procedure for dealing with extremly sensitive data?etc etc,etc.
We are not talking about a list of OAP books falling into the wrong hands here.We are talking about firearms and our personal security being compromised,by someone.Who by the look of things in Irish Govt data mishandling cases sofar has little to fear of personal repercussions!

If you can't trust the post office to keep your data secure now, then you could never trust them.

And I cant trust them to deliver registerd mail or parcles either properly to either my home or work address.:mad: I'm not the only on this one either it seems.Royal Mail has had to put a cap on claims made against it by people in Ireland for loss of mail by an Post.[You have to claim against Royal Mail first for lost items sent from the UK,then they claim against An Post.Pretty convuleted I know.But the number alone in 08/09 is somthing like 45 thousand claims.]
So WTF would I feel confident on them handling secure data,when they screwup on their basic function of delivering mail??

tbh anybody who wants to know who has firearms in a particular area only needs to hang around the local Garda station in August. My local even had a helpful notice on the door for when it was closed (seemingly all the time) instructing people to drop their renewals in the letter box, and of course letting everyone else know what was going on.

[/QUOTE]

Be abit difficult in a rural station that.You are going to look abit suss hanging around a mostly empty Garda station all day.
Us Countryfolk are pretty sharp still to "dem strangers".:):)
And an urban station the amount of people coming and going you could be anyone.
Unless of course the Gardai insist that you bring in all your firearms for checking nonsense,and you clank and clatter in with your guns. A letter is a letter,you could be dropping in anything,or be anyone.Unless you go with a big sign on you saying GUNOWNER on you ??:eek::D

Grizzly 45

You're assuming that such records will be kept under your name and address, what if it's kept under your pulse ID?

[/QUOTE]

That means an post workers will have access to PULSE????:eek::eek::eek:

Other point,anyone got any ideas what info exactly will be on this new super duper credit card liscense??

rrpc

Grizzly45 wrote:

That means an post workers will have access to PULSE????:eek::eek::eek:

Other point,anyone got any ideas what info exactly will be on this new super duper credit card liscense??

They don't have to have access to pulse. They just need a list of pulse id's and amounts. Their job is to get the money from each one and return it to the department. You trot in with your slip, pay your money and get your slip stamped and off to the cop shop with you.

Simples

What's going to be on it? Don't know. Usual stuff I'd imagine: pulse ID, Name, DOB and firearm details.

Our man in Havana

No photograph?

Our man in Havana

rrpc wrote: »

They don't have to have access to pulse. They just need a list of pulse id's and amounts. Their job is to get the money from each one and return it to the department. You trot in with your slip, pay your money and get your slip stamped and off to the cop shop with you.

Simples

What's going to be on it? Don't know. Usual stuff I'd imagine: pulse ID, Name, DOB and firearm details.

I would imagine you will be given a slip with no details on it except a barcode that you will use to pay in the post office. That way the post office worker has no idea what you are paying. You then send you receipt to the Gardaí, who then in turn send you your licence.

Sparks

That all sounds plain and simple and straightforward.

Which is pretty much why I have absolutely zero faith that it's what's going to happen!

Grizzly 45

+1 Sparks,

Great successes of electronic /computor technology that worked in Ireland 95% correctly first time in the last decade that was deliverd on time,within budget,and made life esaier for the tax payer,and is 95% data secure......??
was it?
A] E voting machines? Dublin Transport integrated tickets [C]E Flow on the M50? [D] PULSE? [E] None of the above?

Answers on a postcard please.:rolleyes:

Traumadoc

You are forgetting PPARS attempted introduction as the HSE payroll computer
Cost per employee -22,000 euro

http://www.independent.ie/health/health-boss-refuses-to-ditch-illfated-ppars-system-53230.html

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

That all sounds plain and simple and straightforward.

Which is pretty much why I have absolutely zero faith that it's what's going to happen!

Oh the cynicism; in one so young..

Sparks

Cynicism that's a learned response to events rrpc

boc121

I have 4 firearms, do you think they'll have the brains to send me all the notices together or have me up and down all bloody year? Also we'll have the busy body postmistress knowing how many guns we have,not a good idea. To be honest i dont like my FAO knowing how many i have:p

Our man in Havana

Pay them in the next town where you are not known.

rrpc

boc121 wrote: »

I have 4 firearms, do you think they'll have the brains to send me all the notices together or have me up and down all bloody year?

You should have brought that to the FCP. They'd never have thought of it.

Hezz700

boc121 wrote: »

I have 4 firearms, do you think they'll have the brains to send me all the notices together or have me up and down all bloody year?

Sh1t!!!! i never thought of that. :eek:

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

You should have brought that to the FCP. They'd never have thought of it.

They never thought to tell us mere mortals what's going on either :eek:

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

They never thought to tell us mere mortals what's going on either :eek:

No I'm serious :eek:

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

No I'm serious :eek:

So am I :eek:

Hezz700

Guys,

I spent about an hour in with my local Sgt last night. He told me the following:

The 3 year licences could possibly be rolled out this August depending on a few glitgs being sorted out. If not it will defo happen next year. He already has the new forms which showed me.

When this happens we will all get a letter of extension which will vary in duration for person to person, e.g I.ll get 3 months, Joe Soap will get 6 months and bobby lee will get 9 months. After which they will roll out the 3 year licences (99euro a pop) This he tells me will be a seamless process which is being designed to cut down on administration and not a instrument to be used to wreak havoc within the shooting fraternity. (makes sense, hope it works)

The one thing he did say which might upset some is that he has been told from on high is that ALL pistol licences will be not be renewed regardless of when they were issued and what calibre they are.

This man is not Anti-guns at all. I can only say that he has always been as helpful as possible to me regarding firearms. so this is not one man expressing a personal wish.

Cass

Thats the problem with new procedures and no explanation of how, when and under what criteria they will be inacted. Lack of consistancy in peoples information. While Hezz700 has all the info above, most of which i'm sure is proper and correct, my FO on Saturday told me that he has heard nothing of the new 3 year licence rollout. Not calling hezz700 or anyone else a liar i thought myself they would be out this year. He told me that he has not been trained, updated or even informed of the new 3 year licence rollout, its procedures or payment methods. He said he was in contact with Dublin on Thursday in relation to another matter and they told him they would be starting to print this years standard 1 year licence on Monday (today).

Again lads i'm not saying that what i was told is right and everyone else is wrong. My point is that some areas are told the new licences will be out this year others are told it won't be for at least another year. My own gun club has issued us all with an explanation as to how the new licence rollout will occur and it is allmost word for word the same as above. So they seem fairly confident the change over will happen this year.

My attitude now is to sit and wait to see what happens. If its 1 year or 3 then so be it. With regards to the handgun renewals again there is so much speculation and hearsay that i'm just waiting to see what happens, although whether the new licences come out this year or next this new thing of having to re-apply for all firearms licences (for the first time only) does not sit well. To me it seems a sneaky or backhanded way for the Gardai/DoJ to cut out all (in their opinion) unsavory calibres and makes, eg. handguns, etc. by simply refusing a new licence on some outlandish technicallity/reason.

Maybe they will issue the standard licence and then later this year begin the new 3 year licence application/changeover system.

Solidchrome

What makes me laugh is that the government cant even get the driving licence situation sorted and now they're attempting to get this right...:rolleyes:

fieryirish

Can anyone give me the exact link for this application download, not just garda.ie. Many thanks in advance. Fiery..

Our man in Havana

It is not available yet.

Our man in Havana

Now that we are into July does anyone know what is happening with the licences yet?

mac80

I asked the local sergent when I was getting my ticket amended and he said there are some changes coming down the line but noone has told him about it yet

Mac

cavan shooter

I have some cash to splash and was thinking on changing the semi auto, with all this new change etc, I think i'll hang fire

Terrier

From the NARGC website today (3/7/09)

Following intensive discussions between the NARGC and the Department of Justice in the wake of the announcement to the Firearms Consultative Panel that the new 3 year licence fee would likely be about €99, the fee has now been set at €80. This represents an almost 20% reduction in what was originally intended. The scale of this achievement, which has been secured in the face of massive increases and expenditure cuts across all sectors, should not be underestimated. The new fee was confirmed to the NARGC today, July 3rd 2009.