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So you want to become a solicitor...what is the roadmap?

  • 11-06-2009 9:43pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭


    I'm about to enter my final year as a law student and hope to continue on as a solicitor. Checking the law society's website they list the route to becoming a solicitor as:

    In order to qualify as a solicitor in Ireland, you must:

    * Pass the Preliminary Examination or receive an exemption from it
    * Pass the Final Examination - First Part (FE-1)
    * Secure a training contract
    * Attend the PPC I and pass the course examinations
    * Spend a period of 11 months as a trainee solicitor in the training solicitor's office
    * Attend the PPC II and pass the course examinations
    * Serve the remainder of the two year term of apprenticeship following completion of the PPC II



    Now, I would be grateful if someone could tell me whether we can do any of these exams (FE-1s etc.) before finishing final year?

    How about the Irish exam? I know there are two exams - can people do these without doing the FE-1s first to get them over with?

    ...and I remember hearing the Irish language requirement was being abolished for King's and Blackhall Place? http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/12/04/story49473.asp this is a 2007 Examiner article...


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 483 ✭✭legal eagle 1


    The Irish examination requirement has been abolished, therefore you no longer have to sit those exams.
    I'm not entirely sure but, i think if you are not a graduate you will have to sit a preliminary examination followed by the FE1's but, if you are a graduate all you have to sit is the FE1's. Most people do the FE1's after they get their basic degree or while they are studying for their masters. The FE1's are hard work though so personally I would advise you to focus on your final year in college and try and achieve a good grade and than do the FE1's because as important as it is to pass the FE1's, your college result will weigh heavily against you when you start looking for a training contract!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    Thanks for the quick reply - as for the Irish I've only seen this press release put out by Labour:
    http://www.labour.ie/press/listing/1193307952308446.html

    Do you know when the Act was passed?

    regards,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 483 ✭✭legal eagle 1


    I stand to be corrected but, I think the The Legal Practitioners (Irish Language) Act 2008 was enacted last July 11th. I did the Irish examination December 2007 and by the next sitting of the Irish exam in July this act was enacted abolishing the need to pass the Irish examination and therefore cancelling that exam sitting and all other irish exam sitting since.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    Thank you - here's a link to the Act for anyone interested (July 9th enacted)

    http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=9865&CatID=87&StartDate=01%20January%202008&OrderAscending=0


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭skyhighflyer


    * Pass the Preliminary Examination or receive an exemption from it* Pass the Final Examination - First Part (FE-1)
    * Secure a training contract
    * Attend the PPC I and pass the course examinations
    * Spend a period of 11 months as a trainee solicitor in the training solicitor's office
    * Attend the PPC II and pass the course examinations
    * Serve the remainder of the two year term of apprenticeship following completion of the PPC II

    Prelim exam doesn't apply to you as you will have a degree.

    The First Irish exam was abolished in summer 2008.

    You can't do any of the FE-1s without your degree - most law grads will however attempt their first block (or in some cases, all eight), in the October sitting the year they graduate. You have to apply for this over the summer, usually before your conferral, so a letter from your college confirming that you've sat and passed your finals is required.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,647 ✭✭✭impr0v


    Thirdfox wrote: »
    * Secure a training contract

    While it may seem like jumping ahead of yourself, you should perhaps give some thought to the above step. It is likely to prove to be the most difficult part of the process.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 483 ✭✭legal eagle 1


    While it may seem like jumping ahead of yourself, you should perhaps give some thought to the above step. It is likely to prove to be the most difficult part of the process.

    That is very good advice, i second that!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    impr0v wrote: »
    While it may seem like jumping ahead of yourself, you should perhaps give some thought to the above step. It is likely to prove to be the most difficult part of the process.

    This would be the traineeship right? What is the process with that normally? Say you get offered a training contract after an internship - would this begin right out of graduation (while you're in the FE-1 process?) or do they wait until you've passed the FE-1s first before you start working?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 253 ✭✭Dante09


    Thirdfox wrote: »
    This would be the traineeship right? What is the process with that normally? Say you get offered a training contract after an internship - would this begin right out of graduation (while you're in the FE-1 process?) or do they wait until you've passed the FE-1s first before you start working?

    Oh dear.
    You really have not got have a clue for a final year law student have you? (no offense intended)
    http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=27367&page=41
    read through this thread from page 1 .... should give you a bit of an idea.
    If you have an internship over the summer months with a large law firm, there is a chance that you may get an interview in November, following which you may get an offer.
    If you dont have an internship, good luck with your applications in October. (like i said......read through that thread)
    Training contracts for large law firms are offered (usually) a year and a half in advance, giving one time to complete the FE1s. Dont worry about that....you'll have enough time to do them.
    What you should be worried about is getting a training contract. Fact. I think everybody on this forum would tell you the same if they were being honest and direct with you.
    On the basis of what you've posted on this thread, my advice would be to look at qualifying in another jurisdiction or doing the bar exams (though the grass is not much greener on that side or so i hear from my mates at Kings')


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    Nope, not particularly informed - haven't concentrated on the qualifing part, just the academic part up till now. But with two internships secured this summer with the big firms I shouldn't be in that bad of a position...I'm merely curious about the process directly after graduation. Thank you for your advice nonetheless.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 483 ✭✭legal eagle 1


    Your a very lucky guy having two internships secured.............make sure and make the most of them!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    It appears so following the PFO thread here. Starting this Monday actually - should be interesting work.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 253 ✭✭Dante09


    Im going to assume that if you're starting on monday, its either with McCanns or MOPs as Goodbodys started a week or so ago and Arthur Cox's programme isnt starting for another 2 weeks. Either way, I wish you the best of luck...cease this opportunity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭r14


    MOP has already started so if it is McCanns it seems very insensitive to be starting a batch of interns, especially given the recent poor treatment of their incoming batch of trainees.

    Also to the OP the lawsociety website is helpful: http://www.lawsociety.ie/displayCDAContent.aspx?node=282&groupID=282&code=education

    Also you won't get to start your traineeship until you have your fe1s.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    Care to mention more in relation to the current trainees situation you're talking about?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭r14


    Not really my place but I'm sure you'll hear it around. It's not the current trainees, rather bad treatment of prospective and incoming trainees. Times are tough for everyone I suppose, I'm just surprised they're taking interns. Anyway good luck with the internships. They're great experience and a good foot in the door, just make sure you work hard because it would be a shame to let a great opportunity to find an elusive apprenticeship slip by.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭dats_right


    Thirdfox wrote: »

    In order to qualify as a solicitor in Ireland, you must:

    * Pass the Preliminary Examination or receive an exemption from it
    * Pass the Final Examination - First Part (FE-1)
    * Secure a training contract
    * Attend the PPC I and pass the course examinations
    * Spend a period of 11 months as a trainee solicitor in the training solicitor's office
    * Attend the PPC II and pass the course examinations
    * Serve the remainder of the two year term of apprenticeship following completion of the PPC II

    As a trainee solicitor myself, I can tell you that there is one very important point that should be inserted at the end of your list, viz:
      Immediately upon being admitted to the Roll of Solicitors, you will have to
    apply for Jobseekers Benefit the first day you are made unemployed at you local Social Welfare Office.

    Secondly, I can confirm that the First and Second Irish exams have been abolished and replaced by Legal Practice Irish courses on both the PPC I and PPC II, which involves, inter alia, numerous hours of class time and role plays, ostensibly between solicitor and client in Irish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 483 ✭✭legal eagle 1


    As a trainee solicitor, what would you advise ppl who have FE1's and everything done but, are struggling with the apprenticeship hunt, would you advise them to keep going or to give up and pursue another career choice?? And do you mind me asking if you enjoy the life of a trainee solicitor or is it totally different to what you had hoped etc.?? I would love to know your prespective on things:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    The Legal Irish Practice courses are optional then I guess?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭dats_right


    Thirdfox wrote: »
    The Legal Irish Practice courses are optional then I guess?

    No, the Legal Practice Course is a requirement pursuant to section 2 of the Legal Practitioners (Irish Language) Act 2008.
    And this is taken directly from the Law School site:
    ATTENDANCE AT ALL ELEMENTS OF THE LEGAL PRACTICE COURSE IS MANDATORY.
    ANY ELEMENT MISSED WILL DELAY QUALIFICATION AND WILL HAVE TO BE REPEATED


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭dats_right


    As a trainee solicitor, what would you advise ppl who have FE1's and everything done but, are struggling with the apprenticeship hunt, would you advise them to keep going or to give up and pursue another career choice??
    I've been thinking about that since yesterday and I really could not in all conscience advise anybody to become a solicitor. And not because the job isn't interesting, it's just that prospects are virtually nil. Believe it or not, finding a training contract is the easy part! Okay, people will say that many of the problems within the profession are because of the economy and that is true to an extent, but there are currently about 1,000 qualified solicitors out of work at the moment and the virtuallu all of the next batch (of which I'm one) due to qualify in Dec '09 and April '10 will be let go and will not find alternate employment. So even if things do pick up there is going to be so much competition for jobs that it really is unviable as a career. Sure, in what other profession that you know of would some fully qualified people actually be working for free?

    The Law Society has recently recruited a Careers Advisor with the specific role of finding alternative carrers for solicitors. Hardly inspiring of the Law Society having any confidence in a return to the good times!

    In conclusion, I know this is not what people want to hear and no doubt people will tell me that things aren't that bad (and they're right they are a lot worse!) and will regardless plough on in the hope that things will pick up. But I think it is abundantly obvious to anyone with even half a brain that the problems within the solicitors profession are far more structural (i.e. vast oversupply of solicitors) and will not be solved anytime soon. I also know that people will be reluctant to walk away from the goal, especially after devoting so much time in doing a degree and passing the fe1's but really the best advice would be to do exactly that, believe me after spending another three years post fe-1's towards this goal only to realise that your efforts aren't going to amount to anything is definitely far worse and is one of the most disheartening and soul destroying experiences imaginable.

    Feel free to PM with any other questions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 483 ✭✭legal eagle 1


    Thank you for being so upfront and honest with me, its exactly the prespective I needed to hear. Ya, I have to admit I have been seriously considering walking away from the law career lately as much as it kills me, I'm already struggling with the rejection and the 'failure' and I know deep down there's only more to come. I guess I've just come soo far that the thought of giving it all up now really hurts :( Thank you again though for your opinions :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    dats_right wrote: »
    I've been thinking about that since yesterday and I really could not in all conscience advise anybody to become a solicitor. And not because the job isn't interesting, it's just that prospects are virtually nil. Believe it or not, finding a training contract is the easy part! Okay, people will say that many of the problems within the profession are because of the economy and that is true to an extent, but there are currently about 1,000 qualified solicitors out of work at the moment and the virtuallu all of the next batch (of which I'm one) due to qualify in Dec '09 and April '10 will be let go and will not find alternate employment. So even if things do pick up there is going to be so much competition for jobs that it really is unviable as a career. Sure, in what other profession that you know of would some fully qualified people actually be working for free?

    The Law Society has recently recruited a Careers Advisor with the specific role of finding alternative carrers for solicitors. Hardly inspiring of the Law Society having any confidence in a return to the good times!

    In conclusion, I know this is not what people want to hear and no doubt people will tell me that things aren't that bad (and they're right they are a lot worse!) and will regardless plough on in the hope that things will pick up. But I think it is abundantly obvious to anyone with even half a brain that the problems within the solicitors profession are far more structural (i.e. vast oversupply of solicitors) and will not be solved anytime soon. I also know that people will be reluctant to walk away from the goal, especially after devoting so much time in doing a degree and passing the fe1's but really the best advice would be to do exactly that, believe me after spending another three years post fe-1's towards this goal only to realise that your efforts aren't going to amount to anything is definitely far worse and is one of the most disheartening and soul destroying experiences imaginable.

    Feel free to PM with any other questions.

    Have to agree with a lot of that.

    Look at this way, a lot of fees came from conveyancing, so many in fact that people could charge very little for it due to the volume of work. Now, that volume of fees is gone and imo, not coming back for a long time, but clients still expect their transaction to be a low cost one. Conveyancers have painted themselves into a corner.

    I am very glad my training is in litigation, family law etc. Course, still unemployed, like most of my class.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 483 ✭✭legal eagle 1


    Quick question for you both(dats_right & Amazotheamazing), if you could go back now and do it all over again knowing what you know now, would you still proceed with the Law career or would you have steered clear from it?
    I was a hundred percent certain the last day that I myself was going to walk away from it all together but, I don't have any alternative career choice :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47 plstudent


    Does studying at certain universities give you a better chance of securing a training contract? Or are grades more important than the university you studied at to secure a training contract?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭Jude13


    We have had quite a few solicitors and barristers join us in the past few years. So if it doesn't work out for you have a look at Construction/Development Multi national claims consultants.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Creol1


    plstudent wrote: »
    Does studying at certain universities give you a better chance of securing a training contract? Or are grades more important than the university you studied at to secure a training contract?


    I think Trinity would be preferred by the corporate firms like Arthur Cox.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47 plstudent


    Creol1 wrote: »
    I think Trinity would be preferred by the corporate firms like Arthur Cox.

    Thanks but what I'm mostly getting at is: how important are grades in order to secure a training contract? Do I have to feel "pressured" during my studies to be at the top half of my class? Or are other factors usually more important than grades when selecting applicants?

    I have no interest in studying at Trinity or UCD as I don't like big cities anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Creol1


    plstudent wrote: »
    Thanks but what I'm mostly getting at is: how important are grades in order to secure a training contract? Do I have to feel "pressured" during my studies to be at the top half of my class? Or are other factors usually more important than grades when selecting applicants?

    I have no interest in studying at Trinity or UCD as I don't like big cities anyway.

    My understanding is that grades would be very important if you wanted to secure a TC with one of the big firms. I would say a first or at least an high 2.1 to be competitive.

    That would be my understanding, but I'm not actually in the legal profession, so you might want to wait for an answer from someone who is.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 HooleyBooley


    plstudent wrote: »
    Thanks but what I'm mostly getting at is: how important are grades in order to secure a training contract? Do I have to feel "pressured" during my studies to be at the top half of my class? Or are other factors usually more important than grades when selecting applicants?

    I have no interest in studying at Trinity or UCD as I don't like big cities anyway.

    It depends on whether you're aiming for a commercial firm or a small firm, but it goes without saying that you'll need good grades regardless (ie a 2:1 degree).

    To be in contention at one of the bigger firms (top 10 firms, say), you would need good grades, good extra-curriculars (such as societies and sports) and probably an internship or two with a small firm during the summer before second/final year before undertaking an internship in a bigger commercial firm when you finish up your degree. And then you've the FE-1s, wahay!

    TL;DR: yes, you will have to be pressured to finish in the top half of your class - but would you have been content to just coast along and finish in the bottom half anyway?

    And if you're reluctant to study at Trinity and UCD, which are widely regarded as the best two law schools in the country, then you're not putting yourself in a great position. This is especially so as something like 50% of all Irish solicitors work in Dublin alone and another large chunk would work in Cork, Galway and Limerick.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 905 ✭✭✭Uno my Uno.


    I'm surprised that you even feel the need to ask this question and i think you need to check your attitude. Yes you are going to need good grades to get a training contract. It is difficult to get a TC at any level, there is fierce competition and people with poor grades lose out. Rightly or wrongly TCD and UCD are considered the best law schools, and are preferred by many employers but it isn't a hard and fast rule.

    Don't coast in college, it's a terrible character trait and employers can spot it from your results and attitude. Better to go to NUIG and work hard from the get go than to be in TCD and doing the bare minimum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 106 ✭✭notabasicb


    It depends on whether you're aiming for a commercial firm or a small firm, but it goes without saying that you'll need good grades regardless (ie a 2:1 degree).

    To be in contention at one of the bigger firms (top 10 firms, say), you would need good grades, good extra-curriculars (such as societies and sports) and probably an internship or two with a small firm during the summer before second/final year before undertaking an internship in a bigger commercial firm when you finish up your degree. And then you've the FE-1s, wahay!

    TL;DR: yes, you will have to be pressured to finish in the top half of your class - but would you have been content to just coast along and finish in the bottom half anyway?

    And if you're reluctant to study at Trinity and UCD, which are widely regarded as the best two law schools in the country, then you're not putting yourself in a great position. This is especially so as something like 50% of all Irish solicitors work in Dublin alone and another large chunk would work in Cork, Galway and Limerick.

    + 1


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47 plstudent


    It depends on whether you're aiming for a commercial firm or a small firm, but it goes without saying that you'll need good grades regardless (ie a 2:1 degree)..

    I was under the impression that most people got to do a training contract eventually, which would speak against the idea that only people in the top half have a chance.

    askaboutmoney.com/threads/legal-apprenticeship-any-tips-on-trying-to-find-a-trainee-solicitor-job.27367/page-3

    I like arguing and philosophy but I don't find law itself too interesting which is why I would make a good lawyer after I gather experience but likely not a good student.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭234


    plstudent wrote: »
    I was under the impression that most people got to do a training contract eventually, which would speak against the idea that only people in the top half have a chance.

    askaboutmoney.com/threads/legal-apprenticeship-any-tips-on-trying-to-find-a-trainee-solicitor-job.27367/page-3

    I like arguing and philosophy but I don't find law itself too interesting which is why I would make a good lawyer after I gather experience but likely not a good student.

    You need to seriously rethink both the current state of the market for law graduates and what the role of a solicitor actually involves.

    First, it is completely unture that most law graduates will get to do a training contract eventully. Were that the case the market would be quickly saturated. Many law graduates never go on to practice, sometimes by choice, but often by necessity. For commercial firms a II:1is a minimum. For them its easy to screen out those it doesn't want to have to bother examining more closely.

    Secondly, the practice of law from a solicitor's point of view is usually far removed from argument and rhetoric. If you want to do commercial work business accumen is far more important and the kind of abstract analysis skills of philosophy are rarely relevant. If yoh want to do criminal work you will find that people skills are far more important and that the kinds of advocacy that you might do in the District Court do not involve argument in the way you enjoy it.

    As for the Bar, thats a whole other story. Do a search on this forum and you will find lots of material.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 905 ✭✭✭Uno my Uno.


    plstudent wrote: »
    I was under the impression that most people got to do a training contract eventually, which would speak against the idea that only people in the top half have a chance.

    askaboutmoney.com/threads/legal-apprenticeship-any-tips-on-trying-to-find-a-trainee-solicitor-job.27367/page-3

    I like arguing and philosophy but I don't find law itself too interesting which is why I would make a good lawyer after I gather experience but likely not a good student.

    The attitude that it is not necessary to try very hard because what you want will just happen eventually any way is not going to get you very far in law or life. A career in law is something that you need to make happen, it doesn't just come about. There are lots of people and limited opportunities.

    You need to do some work experience, even a couple of days shadowing a solicitor would let you find out what legal practice is actually about. Spoiler: 95% f the time it's not it's not law and order or the good wife.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    plstudent wrote: »
    I like arguing and philosophy but I don't find law itself too interesting which is why I would make a good lawyer after I gather experience but likely not a good student.

    Okay there are loads of issues with this attitude but lets park those and take it at face value.

    First and foremost Blackhall is not for you. It's the Inns you are looking for. (Okay I was trying to get a Star Wars reference in there)

    So as such if ya wanna coast, coast all you need is a bare pass and the ability to pass the entrance exams. You can do that through a crash course at Griffith when you're finished.

    What I would suggest in short order is deciding what area you want to go into. Really Criminal is the most practical and least academic IMHO but I'm sure I will be flamed to a crisp for that one ;) I just find it the most interesting and easiest to grasp and am a rather dull individual academically.

    So if you're like me you'll get firsts in Evidence, Criminal and given you like philosophy Jurisprudence. You'll maybe find a couple of other topics you like, for me Admin law, Contact and Company. You'll sit in Revenue law mentally undressing the lecturer and in EU wishing Nigel Farage was Irish. (I jest - well not about Revenue, she was distractingly hot). So you end up with a 2.2 and a transcript which screams 'didn't bother my arse'. Fine is what it is.

    What you HAVE to do then is get shed loads of work experience. You need your CV to scream 'vocational monkey'. Get involved in FLAC, get involved in Mooting, debating and prove you're not all hat and no cattle in relation to arguing. Spend your time building contacts, start looking for a good master now by chatting to people and get your start that way. Spend as much time as possible in various solicitors firms.

    A top solicitors firm offering trainees a salary and NQ a good salary can afford the best of the best. The academically great, the sexy looking and socially adept. The rest of us need to make our niches and grab every opportunity by the balls. If you're academically capable but don't then you're stupid, but a kind of stupid most of us are in our twenties.

    DISCLAIMER: Student here, all good theory none of it tested yet. Ask me again in five years when I'm running a Lild.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    Wow, this brings back memories! I was wondering how one of my threads popped back up on the radar again.

    A lot has happened in 6 years - I am now in one of the big firms in Dublin so here is my perspective from within the industry.
    234 wrote: »
    First, it is completely unture that most law graduates will get to do a training contract eventully. Were that the case the market would be quickly saturated. Many law graduates never go on to practice, sometimes by choice, but often by necessity. For commercial firms a II:1is a minimum. For them its easy to screen out those it doesn't want to have to bother examining more closely.

    I would definitely agree with this sentiment. The top firms are looking for the top people, not just in grades, but all aspects if possible. My colleagues all have brilliant minds but also are award winners in sports, heavily involved in charities, orchestras etc. A firm won't look purely on grades (I remember a 1.1 Trinity candidate not getting a position here) but if you end your degree with a 2.2 you will probably need good reasons for underachieving (and I use this term purely in the sense of those who are applying to the top 5 firms).

    As for people ending up in training contracts - I see a new thread has popped up about jobbridge and law firms - solid evidence that it is still not that easy for people to find roles in law I think.

    I think it's just logical that the top positions and top opportunities will generally be offered to the people who have the best track record. So, as other posters have suggested, if academics aren't your strongest suit then demonstrate your potential and strength elsewhere. Grades are verifiable which is why employers like them, but so is "I was captain of the rugby team in UCD", "I represented Ireland in the Youth Olympics in archery", "I spent 3 months in Peru teaching underprivileged children English" or "I won the all-Ireland moot court competition". Just stating that you have skills and positive attributes without evidence won't go too far in my experience.

    And one of the best counterpoints to lower academic results would be work experience - this is the single biggest piece of advice I would give prospective entrants. If it's coming up to 4th year and you still haven't started doing those summer internships it's already quite late in the game. Whereas someone who started in 2nd year and already has 4-5 internships in various firms: a) has a better idea of what field/firm style they would like to enter; b) proves to prospective employers that they are employable and have qualities that other firms value; and c) might already have a secure offer in their possession for post graduation.

    So - take action as soon as possible. College isn't about coasting, it's making use of what time you have (whether it be by working, learning, or excelling at a particular skill or sport you enjoy). Play to your strengths and shore up your weaknesses, everyone is different and law firms do not seek to employ cookie cutter grades focused only graduates :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Thanks so much Thirdfox. 1 vote for a sticky at least and many congrats!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    Just to add, while some of the top firms may be regarded as recruiting mainly from the UCD/TCD pools from my experience there are top firms who recruit from across the country. There isn't a particular need to go to Trinity or UCD to secure a training contract in the big 5, but it could potentially help.

    Also, to expand on the "cookie-cutter" comment - it's something that's often said but I truly see it in my firm. People in my intake come from a very diverse background - some are paralegals who wanted to pursue a traineeship, some are media/history/English graduates who want a change in career, and of course some follow the "normal" route of law in uni. Some are mature candidates and some are fresh out of college. There are people here with LLMs in Cambridge and those with no Masters at all (like me). I'm sure there are PhD candidates here too (though those who pursue PhDs may be focused more on going down the academic route than practising in industry).

    I'm sure the firm appreciates getting a wide spectrum of excellent candidates - the only requirement to succeed is your demonstrable willingness to do so.

    Hopefully this answers Plstudent's question. Grades are definitely not the be all and end all, nor is the name of the University a determinative factor. Rather it is how your CV looks as a whole at the end of the day. But as mentioned already there are minimum requirements and generally a 2.1 is needed for the large corporate firms. My point was that all things being equal between two candidates a top firm (and any employer) would surely prefer the 1.1 candidate over the 2.1 or 2.2 candidate. But people aren't exactly the same bar one attribute. So as a 2.1 candidate I could say to the prospective employers "Yes I know there are 1.1 candidates out there, but I have these unique selling points that I believe make me a better candidate than someone with pure grades advantage." Of course if the employer could see that my unique points weren't actually unique and the 1.1 candidate had them too, well, I probably wouldn't get the job.

    No-one can be the perfect candidate - but we can all try our best at what we can do.

    Here are some of the things I believe a top corporate firm likes (besides top grades in a prestigious university) - my opinion only remember:
    1. Studied abroad - exchange programmes seem to draw firms' interests. Of course there may be financial concerns for some, but if possible it seems that this is an indicator that attracts firms;
    2. Leadership in an organisation - this isn't the old clichéd "I was a leader of X,Y,Z and had great leadership skills" - I think it's more focused on how you have worked well with others in a team environment, how you got to a position that people had trust in your abilities to lead. Organisation could be "head of rowing team", "organised the law society moots", "organised the annual charity drive" or "planned the annual Sci-Fi gaming competition". And I think there is no need to go all out and say "look at how great a leader I am!!!" - your role at the beginning is as a team player, to do the jobs that the leader delegate to you - a firm doesn't need 200 leaders all trying to lead, they need a team who can work well together;
    3. Foreign languages - again, not sure if it's the actual fact that you have a foreign language, or that you have spent time and resources on learning a language. Of course, working in a large corporate firm, having a foreign language such as French, German, Italian, Chinese or Arabic may also come into practical use;
    4. A genuine interest in law - because in corporate law you will be working long hours and for those who see law as an easy way to earn money, I think they will be sadly disappointed. There must be some passion for law (though I don't know how it compares to other professions such as medicine - that one seems like a vocational calling!) - or from what I hear - especially those who want to be called to the Bar;
    5. Practical experience - it doesn't have to be practical experience in the field of law either. The large accountancy firms also run summer internship programmes. I think anywhere which gives you a taste of working in a corporate office space should be beneficial for both your employment prospectives and also for you to decide if sitting behind a desk is what you want to do. I have friends who quickly realised that the corporate life isn't for them and went off to the UN or EU and are happily working away there. Isn't it better for you to know what you want before you graduate rather than putting years of time and effort into something you may not ultimately like doing?
    6. Being nice - impossible to demonstrate on a CV - but so important in my opinion. When you're working till 10pm, 11pm, 2am - you want to be working with people who you like and who like you. At the interviews I'm sure they are thinking "can I work with this person?" - it doesn't matter if you have an Olympic gold medal, speak 7 languages, a PhD from Oxford, if you're an insufferable git then it will be hard to pass the interview test! (Though realistically an insufferable git with those kinds of credentials will probably get a chance. Anything less than Olympic gold medallist though... :P )

    Remember Pac-Man :pac: - if you have patchy spots in your CV (for example missing any particular part of the things I mentioned above) then try your best to address them. At the end of third year in university I thought I had nailed things down ok - but I was a pac-man, a piece was missing - no organisational/teamwork experience - so, instead of spending fourth year trying to move my grades from a 2.1 to a 1.1 or do any more internships I joined a number of college societies, became a captain of one of the sporting teams - addressed a weakness in my CV that was easier to address than the effort I would need to have committed in order to move up to a 1.1.

    Who knows - maybe the employer looked at my CV and thought "well this person doesn't have a 1.1 but showed that they can work in a team well...whereas this person has a 1.1 but we don't know how well they'll work in a team".

    Good luck to everyone starting on the road I went down those years ago.

    Edit: oh and you're welcome Mark - hope it's of some use. There's a lot of truth in the cliché "luck is when preparation meets opportunity". When people say "you're so lucky to have your job!" I know they are right, an opportunity came by - but I'd like to think I contributed by preparing as well as I could.


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