Should i appeal penalty points?

bblueblood

Hi all. Today i was driving home from Cork to Limerick when i was pulled over by a detectives car with lights flashing behind me, the decective came to my window and asked if i was in a rush home, i said i wasn't, and he said i had overtaken on a continous white line (which i would never do). I was amazed and said no i didn't, that i had over taken a slow moving lorry (which sped up as we were side by side) on broken white lines but by the time i'd overtaken, and was safe to pull back into the left lane i was now on a continous white line. What could i do but coutinue to finnish overtaking and then pull in. After awhile the detective aggreed i hadn't overtaken on a continous line but now he said "as soon as i saw the continous line i should have braked, allowed lorry to pass me out again, then waited in the wrong lane untill i had a chance to pull into the left lane again. Then he said i'd did it TWICE. I argued that i was allowed to overtake on a broken white line when it was safe and i didn't know that 100-200 meters up the road the lines changed to a continous line, he said i should pay more attention. Should i appeal these penalty points?

P.S Sorry about the long post and thanks in advance for any help

population

My old boss got pulled for the exact same thing about 3 years ago and got a typically belligerent response from the Garda, much as in your case.

Essentially letter of the law you are bang to rights unfortunatley and from my recollection of my boss he had to take the fine and the points.

Sorry to be the bearer

drkpower

bblueblood wrote: »

Hi all. Today i was driving home from Cork to Limerick when i was pulled over by a detectives car with lights flashing behind me, the decective came to my window and asked if i was in a rush home, i said i wasn't, and he said i had overtaken on a continous white line (which i would never do). I was amazed and said no i didn't, that i had over taken a slow moving lorry (which sped up as we were side by side) on broken white lines but by the time i'd overtaken, and was safe to pull back into the left lane i was now on a continous white line. What could i do but coutinue to finnish overtaking and then pull in. After awhile the detective aggreed i hadn't overtaken on a continous line but now he said "as soon as i saw the continous line i should have braked, allowed lorry to pass me out again, then waited in the wrong lane untill i had a chance to pull into the left lane again. Then he said i'd did it TWICE. I argued that i was allowed to overtake on a broken white line when it was safe and i didn't know that 100-200 meters up the road the lines changed to a continous line, he said i should pay more attention. Should i appeal these penalty points?

P.S Sorry about the long post and thanks in advance for any help

Always risky fighting a Garda in a his word v yours scenario.
Pre penalty points, i saw a young lad mount a spirited (and funny) defence to a speeding charge only for him to get the standard fine x 10!!!
Risky business.
But if you are, let me know what court, i might spin along for the laugh...

Wishbone Ash

bblueblood wrote: »

i was pulled over by a detectives car with lights flashing behind me, the decective came to my window

What makes you think that he was a detective? I'm open to correction but I seriously doubt that a detective would be doing routine traffic duties.

If he was indeed a detective, I'd be thinking that you must have given him good reason to pull you over!

bblueblood wrote:

i didn't know that 100-200 meters up the road the lines changed to a continous line

I certainly wouldn't shoot myself in the foot with that line as it comes across as "I wasn't aware of what was a hundred metres ahead of me when I decided to overtake a truck".

bblueblood wrote:

Should i appeal these penalty points?

You'd have to be issued with them first.

Carawaystick

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You'd have to be issued with them first.

points are only issued if you confess/sign the form or get convicted in court


I thought the offence was for crossing a white line where it was unsafe to do so or some other qualifier.

Hooch

Carawaystick wrote: »

points are only issued if you confess/sign the form or get convicted in court


I thought the offence was for crossing a white line where it was unsafe to do so or some other qualifier.

Myth

O/P the offense is not overtaking on a continous white line, it is crossing it. The FCPS is for crossing it (ie if your driving down the road and sway over the line you could get a ticket)

The white line was there for a reason, whether it was a junction or an upcoming bend. You as a competent driver should have foreseen this. Every white line is proceeded with a junction/bend sign etc. You may not notice it everyday but have a look next time.

My advice is pay the notice and do not cross a white line in future. Even if a vehicle pulles into the hard shoulder you may not cross the white line.

(*and before anyone says it, overtaking before the continous white line and remaining on the wrong side until it is broken again is an offence of dangerous overtaking or dangerous driving*):)

Hope this helps

civildefence

You'd have to let it go to court, if you do, you'd better be prepared.

bblueblood

nice guy always wrote: »

Myth

O/P the offense is not overtaking on a continous white line, it is crossing it. The FCPS is for crossing it (ie if your driving down the road and sway over the line you could get a ticket)

The white line was there for a reason, whether it was a junction or an upcoming bend. You as a competent driver should have foreseen this. Every white line is proceeded with a junction/bend sign etc. You may not notice it everyday but have a look next time.

My advice is pay the notice and do not cross a white line in future. Even if a vehicle pulles into the hard shoulder you may not cross the white line.

(*and before anyone says it, overtaking before the continous white line and remaining on the wrong side until it is broken again is an offence of dangerous overtaking or dangerous driving*):)

Hope this helps

My point is that i had plenty of time to overtake safely and was perfectly entitled to do so but this lorry driver speed up as i was doing so, because of this i had two choices-

1-Continue overtaking and pull back into correct lane when safe to do so.
or

2- Slow down on wrong side of road and hope this driver had finishd his little game and would then have allowed me to pull back into correct lane.

I didn't know and hadn't the time to know what this maniac was going to do next so i choose option no1,to this cop or whatever he was, this probably looked bad on my behalf from a distance but surely the lorry driver was in the wrong for doing such a stupid thing and causing the whole incident!!!

Hooch

bblueblood wrote: »

My point is that i had plenty of time to overtake safely and was perfectly entitled to do so but this lorry driver speed up as i was doing so, because of this i had two choices-

1-Continue overtaking and pull back into correct lane when safe to do so.
or

2- Slow down on wrong side of road and hope this driver had finishd his little game and would then have allowed me to pull back into correct lane.

I didn't know and hadn't the time to know what this maniac was going to do next so i choose option no1,to this cop or whatever he was, this probably looked bad on my behalf from a distance but surely the lorry driver was in the wrong for doing such a stupid thing and causing the whole incident!!!

Dont take this the wrong way but last time I drove an articulated tractor and semi trailer it didnt have all that much acceleration

My post stands. IMO you should have been aware of the upcomming white line. Your only option left was to continue overtaking (breaking hard could constitute dangerous driving). This action could not have been all caused by the artic. You must accept the blame. But this is only my opinion.:)

seanybiker

just take it on the chin.

bblueblood

nice guy always wrote: »

Dont take this the wrong way but last time I drove an articulated tractor and semi trailer it didnt have all that much acceleration

My post stands. IMO you should have been aware of the upcomming white line. Your only option left was to continue overtaking (breaking hard could constitute dangerous driving). This action could not have been all caused by the artic. You must accept the blame. But this is only my opinion.:)

Not being funny but i wasn't overtaking an articulated tractor i was overtaking a lorry, the two aren't comparable. Dont know how he managed to accelreate, don't care how he managed to accelerate he just did and by doing so prevented me from completing a perfectly safe and legal manoeuvre, apon noticing the continous white line ahead could i have stopped overtaking him and pulled back to my origonal position, maybe maybe not, i obviously couldn't trust this lorry driver so whatever choices i had would have been illegal. I know that technically i broke the law but only because it was do or die, thats why i think maybe i should appeal

Monkeybonkers

bblueblood wrote: »

Not being funny but i wasn't overtaking an articulated tractor i was overtaking a lorry, the two aren't comparable. Dont know how he managed to accelreate, don't care how he managed to accelerate he just did and by doing so prevented me from completing a perfectly safe and legal manoeuvre, apon noticing the continous white line ahead could i have stopped overtaking him and pulled back to my origonal position, maybe maybe not, i obviously couldn't trust this lorry driver so whatever choices i had would have been illegal. I know that technically i broke the law but only because it was do or die, thats why i think maybe i should appeal

Probably just better to accept it. If you look at it from a purely legal viewpoint you crossed the unbroken line and so are guilty. Judges don't care about anything else

Hooch

bblueblood wrote: »

Not being funny but i wasn't overtaking an articulated tractor i was overtaking a lorry, the two aren't comparable. Dont know how he managed to accelreate, don't care how he managed to accelerate he just did and by doing so prevented me from completing a perfectly safe and legal manoeuvre, apon noticing the continous white line ahead could i have stopped overtaking him and pulled back to my origonal position, maybe maybe not, i obviously couldn't trust this lorry driver so whatever choices i had would have been illegal. I know that technically i broke the law but only because it was do or die, thats why i think maybe i should appeal

Just to explain the big long ''lorrys'' with trailers are articulated tractor units, thats what i meant....not farmer joes john deere.

To be honest I dont think you have grounds for appeal. Sorry

Wishbone Ash

nice guy always wrote: »

but last time I drove an articulated tractor and semi trailer it didnt have all that much acceleration

+1

OP - The truck would be legally limited to 80kph (and probably physically limited to 90kph). Unless it was actually accelerating from a standing position, it is highly unlikely that any further acceleration would be possible or noticable. It was more than likely travelling at its maximum speed.

I have never driver any truck which was capable of such a sudden burst of acceleration unless taking off empty at a junction. Perhaps you were driving a very slow car?

bblueblood wrote:

i wasn't overtaking an articulated tractor

LOL

Under Road Traffic Regulations, there are 'tractors' and 'land tractors'.

The latter is what you might see in a field operating machinery.

The former is what draws a semi-trailer and usually made by Scania, Volvo, DAF, MAN, Renault, Iveco etc.

Mbyte

I would appeal that! Did he tell you what law you broke and quote what law you broke and did he tell you that you would get the penalty points? If he didn't and you found out a few weeks later from a letter in the post then those points don't apply. After the fact. The law wasn't stated at the time so the points you got or any penalty you get doesn't apply. He must state the offence at the time because the facts are before him at the moment while they are not afterwards, his poor mind could play tricks on him and he might give you points for things you didn't do.

There was a case wear a man would turn right out of his drive way making him have to cross the spaced white line. However a roundabout was made up to the left a good bit up the road and during the resurfacing of the road a continues white line was made in front of his drive way. Without realizing that he actually couldn't turn right he went to turn right. Someone stopped to let him out and so he proceeded. A gardai car was near and he was pulled over. Points on his liscence. The man had been turning right from his drive way for years. Now he was told he had to turn left and go to the roundabout and go the 360 to go back down the road in the opposite direction. He appealed and won the case. No points.

In that situaltion you were in, it is down to common since. If the gardai told you you should have pulled back which you would make sense if it wasn't safe and there was no ample time to over take. If you were almost past the truck when the continues line started, there was ample time, no on comming traffic, then it is common sense to pass the truck out thus making the gardai a prick. You deemed it unsafe to slow down and pull back in behind the truck as it would have taken even longer time to do so.

In situations like that I would speak my mind. It's not definite and you can literally tell the gardi he is being unreasonable. I have also driven from cork to limerick many times.

Mr. Presentable

Just to be clear. Is it not the case that a broken white line becomes a double broken white 100m before it becomes a solid? So you'll know it's coming.

Keith186

Mbyte wrote: »

I would appeal that! Did he tell you what law you broke and quote what law you broke and did he tell you that you would get the penalty points? If he didn't and you found out a few weeks later from a letter in the post then those points don't apply. After the fact. The law wasn't stated at the time so the points you got or any penalty you get doesn't apply. He must state the offence at the time because the facts are before him at the moment while they are not afterwards, his poor mind could play tricks on him and he might give you points for things you didn't do.

There was a case wear a man would turn right out of his drive way making him have to cross the spaced white line. However a roundabout was made up to the left a good bit up the road and during the resurfacing of the road a continues white line was made in front of his drive way. Without realizing that he actually couldn't turn right he went to turn right. Someone stopped to let him out and so he proceeded. A gardai car was near and he was pulled over. Points on his liscence. The man had been turning right from his drive way for years. Now he was told he had to turn left and go to the roundabout and go the 360 to go back down the road in the opposite direction. He appealed and won the case. No points.

In that situaltion you were in, it is down to common since. If the gardai told you you should have pulled back which you would make sense if it wasn't safe and there was no ample time to over take. If you were almost past the truck when the continues line started, there was ample time, no on comming traffic, then it is common sense to pass the truck out thus making the gardai a prick. You deemed it unsafe to slow down and pull back in behind the truck as it would have taken even longer time to do so.

In situations like that I would speak my mind. It's not definite and you can literally tell the gardi he is being unreasonable. I have also driven from cork to limerick many times.

This isn't the same example. You are allowed cross the white line for access so this is a different kettle of fish.

Unfortunately I had the experience of being pulled over by a Garda before and he told me I was speeding and gave me a little lecture and checked my licence. A month later I got penalty points and a fine which he didn't mention at all so I rang up the office and they said pay the fine or go to court and it's my word against his so I wouldn't bother going down that road. I did write them a little letter which I posted with my fine saying that it was a f*cking joke they can get away with fining someone without informing them.

OP if it was a detective who pulled you over he mightn't bother with the paper work and you mightn't hear about it again.

Mbyte

Keith186 wrote: »

This isn't the same example. You are allowed cross the white line for access so this is a different kettle of fish.

Unfortunately I had the experience of being pulled over by a Garda before and he told me I was speeding and gave me a little lecture and checked my licence. A month later I got penalty points and a fine which he didn't mention at all so I rang up the office and they said pay the fine or go to court and it's my word against his so I wouldn't bother going down that road. I did write them a little letter which I posted with my fine saying that it was a f*cking joke they can get away with fining someone without informing them.

OP if it was a detective who pulled you over he mightn't bother with the paper work and you mightn't hear about it again.

Do not be put off by the "it's your word against his" cr@p. It's the peoples duty to fight such illegal practices. If you don't then they'll keep doing it. You were never informed and stick to it, be adamant about it. It was wrong of him to give you those points without informing you at the time. That person is a gardai and enforces the law and a public servant. He doesn't deserve it. Don't take that cr@p. Anytime you get pulled over and the gardai asks your name you ask him his name. If he doesn't give that ask for his badge number which you are entitled. Then you know who your dealing with. Anytime you get pulled over ask and make it a habit.

eddiej

You are not entitled to his badge number (which is really his reg number) you are entitled to his name, station and shoulder number.

Mbyte

eddiej wrote: »

You are not entitled to his badge number (which is really his reg number) you are entitled to his name, station and shoulder number.

better again

Keith186

Mbyte wrote: »

Do not be put off by the "it's your word against his" cr@p. It's the peoples duty to fight such illegal practices. If you don't then they'll keep doing it. You were never informed and stick to it, be adamant about it. It was wrong of him to give you those points without informing you at the time. That person is a gardai and enforces the law and a public servant. He doesn't deserve it. Don't take that cr@p. Anytime you get pulled over and the gardai asks your name you ask him his name. If he doesn't give that ask for his badge number which you are entitled. Then you know who your dealing with. Anytime you get pulled over ask and make it a habit.

I was only driving a short while and it was my first time being stopped so didn't really know at the time.

I think it will be tough for the OP to get off with it unless the cop just drops it or he knows a cop who will have a word with him if he has his name.