Hybrid versus Diesel

Yorky

I'm considering both of these and am unsure whixh would be the best buy. I want to keep it for at least ten years and the mileage would be 180 -200k in that time.

My initial choice was a diesel for the mileage but perhaps the new Honda Civic Hybrid woul also 'go the distance' .

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Alanstrainor

I'd be going for a diesel tbh, just going by what you've said, if you want it for the long haul then diesel is the way to go. The batteries in hybrids only have a limited lifespan of a certain amount of charges before they lose their ability to hold a charge, granted you can replace the batteries but i'd imagine that'd be expensive. The diesel would be probably be better to drive than the hybrid, easier to maintain, and last longer IMO.

pburns

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I'd be going for a diesel tbh, just going by what you've said, if you want it for the long haul then diesel is the way to go. The batteries in hybrids only have a limited lifespan of a certain amount of charges before they lose their ability to hold a charge, granted you can replace the batteries but i'd imagine that'd be expensive. The diesel would be probably be better to drive than the hybrid, easier to maintain, and last longer IMO.

+1
This is an environmental downside of hybrids that the tree-huggers haven't copped onto yet.

I'd say the 1.6 diesel slotted into the Mazda 3, Focus and Volvo S40 would be suitable. Personally I'd go for the Mazda - new model just out, Japanese reliability etc. etc.

biggus

What type of driving are you going to be doing ? If its mainly city hybrids the way to go

spank_inferno

even if it was mixed/urban driving a small modern diesel (say, 1.6ltr) would be good.

The batteries do degrade over time in hybrids/electric (think of charge your phone holds now compared to when brand new)
So considering your proposed lifespan, diesel of any kind would be the way to go

JHMEG

The hybrid system and its batteries are covered by a 100k miles/8 year warranty so there's no problem there. After that there's a guy in the UK who is doing a complete swap out/refurb of batteries for £500, all in, once the warranty is up, should you develop a problem.

Two Civic IMAs in our house and a neighbour has a Civic Hybrid. That's 3 hybrids in 12 houses! I typically get 65mpg per tank (a 45L fill) but can get as much as 74mpg on a run (there are a few other people on boards that get the same economy as me, search for Civic IMA).

However if you pull livestock or are a member of the travelling community you may find diesel a better choice.

Dartz

Problem with hybrids is this

Your ALWAYS carrying the weight of the batteries around, no matter what charge is actually in there. On top of that, you're carrying the weight of a regular load of fuel.

Also, non-plugin hybrids still need to charge their batteries off of their engines/braking. This energy still has to come from the petrol. Ain't thermodynamics a bitch?

A 520D, is actually more efficient and more environmentally firendly than a Prius. And it's a better bloody car. The only thing a Prius really has going for it is Smug value.

Never mind CO2 driven climate change is a ****ing crock.... but anyway

Zube

Dartz wrote: »

Never mind CO2 driven climate change is a ****ing crock.... but anyway

When bringing up reasonable points about diesel vs. hybrid economy/lifespan/greeness etc., you should probably leave this bit out, since it's irrelevant to the discussion.

The science says it's wrong, too, which undermines your other points.

pburns

JHMEG wrote: »

The hybrid system and its batteries are covered by a 100k miles/8 year warranty so there's no problem there. After that there's a guy in the UK who is doing a complete swap out/refurb of batteries for £500, all in, once the warranty is up, should you develop a problem.

Two Civic IMAs in our house and a neighbour has a Civic Hybrid. That's 3 hybrids in 12 houses! I typically get 65mpg per tank (a 45L fill) but can get as much as 74mpg on a run (there are a few other people on boards that get the same economy as me, search for Civic IMA).

The disadvantages of hybrids have been stated by others here - weight, battery-life, disposal. Relying on 'some guy in England' to do a heart transplant at some indeterminite point in the future is not really good enough. Why are Honda or Toyota not leading on this? Could it possibly be that they are more interested in selling new cars than keeping older models on the road (as environmentally responsible as this may be)?

If you do mainly urban/sub-urban mileage or have a second conventional car (or if you really, really want to impress that gorgeous, nympho, hippy-chick friend-of-a-friend) then hybrid might make some sense. Otherwise they're a crock of ****.

JHMEG wrote: »

However if you pull livestock or are a member of the travelling community you may find diesel a better choice.

That'll leave the hybrid as transport-of-choice for deluded, middle-class, sub-urban fashionistas with tree-hugging pretensions....

peasant

Half (or even quarter) your budget, buy a decent s/h diesel now, drive it for five years ...buy fully electric then. If the governement spin is to be believed, by then there should be a decent choice of and infrastructure for electric cars.

Stephen

Civic 2.2 diesel... nom nom.

Zube

Stephen wrote: »

Civic 2.2 diesel... nom nom.

Yes, and compared to the Civic Hybrid you lop 3 seconds off the 0-60 time, get a bigger boot, and hatchback practicality.

The only downside I see is €156 tax vs. €104, but the grand you save on the sticker price will pay the difference for 20 years.

crocro

Hybrids are good for city driving and short journeys and they are quiet if that's important to you. There are three to choose from: toyota prius, honda civic and honda insight (only available in the UK). They are all automatics.

The 8 year battery guarantee is a bit of a worry.

Hybrids have better 'official' fuel economy than diesels but how that works out in the real world, I don't know. You need to drive very gently to get anything like the measured figures.

mickdw

crocro wrote: »

There are three to choose from: toyota prius, honda civic and honda insight (only available in the UK). They are all automatics.

GS 450h I say!
Anyone know what they do to the gallon (real world)?

Leadership

crocro wrote: »

Hybrids have better 'official' fuel economy than diesels but how that works out in the real world, I don't know. You need to drive very gently to get anything like the measured figures.

Topgear did a show where they had a prius drive as fast as it could around a race track and they chased it with a BMW M3. The M3 had far the better fuel ecconomy and left us with a statement that the real saving for ecconomy is not what you drive but the way the you drive.

JHMEG

pburns wrote: »

The disadvantages of hybrids have been stated by others here - weight, battery-life, disposal. Relying on 'some guy in England' to do a heart transplant at some indeterminite point in the future is not really good enough. Why are Honda or Toyota not leading on this? Could it possibly be that they are more interested in selling new cars than keeping older models on the road (as environmentally responsible as this may be)?

To dispel some myths:

Weight: Civic Hybrid 1297kg, Civic Diesel 1468kg. I get 65mpg carrying around those apparently heavy batteries. I would get less mpg if I took them out!

Battery-life: is the life of the car. But nothing is perfect and things do go wrong. Like turbos blow on turbo diesels, which are more expensive to fix and don't have an 8-year/100k mile warranty.

No Civic hybrid is 8 years old yet, but when the time comes it's nice to know a refurb will only cost you £500 in the extermely unlikely event that the battery fails before the car does. Statistically your turbo on your turbo diesel is more likely to blow and will cost a lot more to repair.

Changing a battery is hardly a heart transplant: it's in the boot, it unplugs and has its own carry handle. If only a turbo was so easy to remove!

Disposal: batteries are all taken back and recycled.

pburns wrote:

If you do mainly urban/sub-urban mileage or have a second conventional car (or if you really, really want to impress that gorgeous, nympho, hippy-chick friend-of-a-friend) then hybrid might make some sense. Otherwise they're a crock of ****.



That'll leave the hybrid as transport-of-choice for deluded, middle-class, sub-urban fashionistas with tree-hugging pretensions....

I drive mine because I get 65mpg. Simple as.

JHMEG

Oh, and it's quite comfortable and reasonably quiet.

Eoin

someone wrote:

Diesels are for farmers blah blah blah

someone else wrote:

Hybrids are for hippies blah blah blah

This is what the OP asked - let's keep it on topic please, based on what he/she actually asked.

"I'm considering both of these and am unsure whixh would be the best buy. I want to keep it for at least ten years and the mileage would be 180 -200k in that time."

Leadership wrote: »

Topgear did a show where they had a prius drive as fast as it could around a race track and they chased it with a BMW M3. The M3 had far the better fuel ecconomy and left us with a statement that the real saving for ecconomy is not what you drive but the way the you drive.

I wouldn't take Top Gear as scientific fact, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they massage the facts to suit their script. It's an entertainment show about the presenters with some cars thrown in.

Eoin

@JHMEG - good post, will be interesting to see what happens when civics start reaching 8 years and beyond. As you say, a diesel of the same age is quite likely to have some bills of its own.

mickdw wrote: »

GS 450h I say!
Anyone know what they do to the gallon (real world)?

Mid to late twenties I think, so a few more MPG than a BMW e60 V8.

Zube

eoin wrote: »

This is what the OP asked - let's keep it on topic please, based on what he/she actually asked.

I don't doubt that JHMEG gets 65 mpg from his hybrids. I very much doubt that I would.

I would pick the diesel because it's so much quicker. Driving an S-Max diesel completely without regard for economy, I still get 40 mpg. Flogging a Civic hybrid to get it to bloody move would probably drop the economy down towards the figures I'd get from a Civic diesel, and would be a lot less fun.

JHMEG

It doesn't really matter what you drive, if you drive badly your mpg will suffer.

emaherx

Hybrid V Diesel.

Why don't any of the manufacturers Build Diesel Hybrids surely this would make the choice simpler.

Efficiency of petrol is pretty low I think I heard a figure of about 25% efficient.
Diesel is closer to 80% efficient.

A hybrid is basically a petrol car that runs as efficiently as a Diesel one .

So surely a Multi fuel Diesel Hybrid (ie will run on Diesel/PPO/BioDiesel) would be the most efficient and environmentally friendly. (Sort of a hippie tree hugger wet dream)

I know Batteries are still a bit of a concern, but battery technology's are improving very quickly. You may find that by the time they need to be replaced you will be able to get cheaper, more efficient, longer lasting and more environmentally friendly to produce.

I don't think hybrids should be written off completely, but have a long way to go yet.
I see the new Prius is more efficient than the old one and has a full EV mode too.

JHMEG

The difference between engine efficiency is really quite small. However, diesel fuel contains more stored energy.

Outside of Europe diesel is not popular due to air pollution, and laws to do with air pollution etc. In Europe the emissions standards for diesel are lower than they are for petrol, possibly due to lobbying from European car manufacturers. Whatever the reason, it is why diesel is so popular here, and probably is aided by higher fuel prices.

I would be expecting a diesel hybrid to come from a European manufacturer as the Japanese and Americans have no real interest. VW did promise one a few years ago but was abandoned due to cost. I think Peugeot (arguably the best small diesel engine maker) also intended on bringing one out, originally announced in 2006, but I see it's now slated for release in 2011.

Zube

JHMEG wrote: »

It doesn't really matter what you drive, if you drive badly don't drive like a granny on a fixed income your mpg will suffer.

Fixed that for you.

Eoin

Zube wrote: »

Fixed that for you.

That's enough thanks. Edit - from the two of you.