can someone explain to me how the surplus is split ?

gar_29

something i've always wondered....

say candidate A gets 11,000 votes, and the quote is 10,000, so the surplus gets distributed.

how is it decided which 1,000 votes constitute the surplus? its it done randomly? surely if a constituency was fairly diverse, comprising, say, affluent and not-so-affluent areas, the choice of which 1,000 votes to distribute could be important.

conchubhar1

good point!

Sponge Bob

It is random

1000 votes are pulled out of the 11,000 , say each eleventh vote or so from each pile till you have 1000 ( and no prefs are disregarded and another is pulled) .

If you were to do a full recount that surplus would be different again .

I think Dick Spring had 2 full recounts in Kerry once until a surplus from a previously elected candidates went 'his way' .

antoinolachtnai

It's specified in the Act I think. Basically, the votes are taken from the top of the pile.

The votes from all the boxes are mixed and shuffled before voting begins.

This does introduce randomness. The effect is actually quite small.

I think that Seanad elections are done differently. Every transfer is counted there.

Sponge Bob

The problem is that plumpers are disregarded , that is undemocratic !

gar_29

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It is random



I think Dick Spring had 2 full recounts in Kerry once until a surplus from a previously elected candidates went 'his way' .

really? that's amazing!!!

Sponge Bob

If you were within 2 or 3 ( out of 10,000 votes each ) and there is a 2000 surplus in play out of which to select 2 or 3 then you may be guaranteed that each distribution of surplus will be different because randomisation will make it so.

My plumper point is that say gar and conchubhar run

Gar is a Shinner and Conchubhar is a FFer .

each is elected on the first count , quota 10,000 , vote 11,000 , surplus 1,000. Identical .

However shinners tend to vote 1 and with no other preference , these are plumpers.

FFer tend to vote the ticket .

Lets say that of the 11,000 votes 3000 plump with SF and only 300 with FF

This means that a distribution of surplus from a shinners gives a HIGHER weight to those who do not plump over the weight of an individual FF voter .

Put another way , the 8000 SF votes who gave a number 2 have greater weight than the 10700 FFers who also gave a number two .

This is undemocratic to my mind and the surplus should be weighed for plumpers for that candidate .

antoinolachtnai

As far as I know, they do not re-pick the votes for the recount. They just recount.

Sponge Bob

A full recount includes a distribution of surplus as it occurs AFAIK

antoinolachtnai

I am going by

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/Voting/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,1895,en.pdf

Section IX

"Candidates can also, before the result is formally declared, request a total recount of all votes. This involves re-examining and recounting all parcels of ballot papers as they stand when the recount is called for. If a significant error is found (i.e. one which is likely to change who is elected), then all the ballot papers must be counted afresh from the point at which the error occurred."

It looks like the votes are not re-sorted.

I have not looked at the legislation.

Sponge Bob

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

" all the ballot papers must be counted afresh from the point at which the error occurred.".

In a full recount they are counted from scratch and the spoils are counted from scratch .

antoinolachtnai

I don't think this is correct.

The spoils are not counted from scratch. As I understand it, the debate usually centres around spoiled votes. The votes over which there is a dispute are marked and considered.

I do not think there is an opportunity to re-randomize. I would be interested to be corrected on this.

I think I was wrong to say that they simply take from the top of the pile to determine the distribution of votes. In fact it's more complex than that. The rules are all in the document above. It gets a bit tricky.

rocally

I'm sure it a simple answer but can someone explained how they work it when lets say 100k is the quota and someone gets 110K how do they know spread the surplus - i kinda think its done proportionately but i dont really understand it -

turgon

All 110k votes are counted and the second preferences noted. The number of transfers each candidate gets is their number of second preferences multiplied by the number of surplus and divided by total. So in all the sum of number of votes each candidate gets will equal the surplus.

The physical ballots are then selected randomly. SO if Candidate A gets 3,000 transfers, 3,000 ballots showing him as second pref are randomly chosen and put in his pile.

sceptre

Two threads merged.

djpbarry

There's a pretty good explanation of the whole PR-STV voting system on the RTE website:
http://www.rte.ie/news/elections/prstv.html

It's split into three different sections (based on how much you want to understand): the basics, the logic and finally, the mechanics behind how the system operates in practice, using the 2002 general election in Kildare North as a working example.

Capt'n Midnight

Citizens info
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/government-in-ireland/elections-and-referenda/voting/proportional_representation


Law book thingy
Electoral Act, 1992
Transfer of surplus.