Why? Why?

Effluo

Hi everyone,
I have to get something off my chest and feel quite foolish for not posting this here before the actual elections.
I suppose it was really only when the election results came in was i finally awoken to what i find to be a rather disturbing truth.

Nearly half of the Irish electorate made a mistake in the process of deciding who they were going to vote for in their "local" council elections.


A stat came out yesterday from rte and it read that 54% of people who voted on Friday for the local elections voted for people and what they believed the people could do for the community, while 46% voted for parties and voted due to the way that the economic crisis has been handled....

Am I the only person who see's something vitally wrong here?
These are local elections which concern the running of county councils and town councils...

I voted for the people which I believe will do the best work for my community, what the hell happened to everyone else!!!

Can anyone of that 46% answer intelligently and back up their answer to why you would vote in a local election on a national matter?
It's just.....

........

Are 46% of us really that thick?

Dr. Baltar

Many people view the local and european elections as an opportunity to give a protest vote against the government in the hope that it will lead to instability of the current government and lead to a general election and the installlation of a new government.

conchubhar1

i personaly can not give a vote to anyone who stands with fianna fáil or the greens, still after the mess they helped create.

mewso

Well Pat Rabitte was on RTE saying this was a vote for a new government. Now while he may have to say that to get the political dig in at FF I'm sitting there thinking isn't that a sad reflection on the electorate and democracy. Same for Lisbon when everyone said it was an anti-FF vote.

Problem is that it works both ways because if in a General Election or a Local Election you vote for the guy you believe will fix the bad roads in your area is this voting for the guy who will help improve the Country/Community as a whole or just someone who will sort out your issues.

I'm firmly in the voting for the common good camp but I'm probably in the minority. In the past I have been a strong Labour supporter but if I believed another candidate (excluding FF and SF *) would do a better job for the community then I would vote accordingly.

* would take something akin to a miracle for me to believe a FF or SF candidate would ever benefit the community as whole for differing reasons.

ShooterSF

Well if 46% of the voters voted against the government that means only 54% voted on the candidates but yet 25% voted for FF that's nearly 1 in 2 of those voting based on the candidates. If that's the case thank FSM for protest votes.

DadaKopf

Part of the problem is that we don't have actual local government. Until we have local government, at times like this voters will continue to see local elections as ways to punish the government of the day.

Liam Byrne

Because if anyone's still a member of FF - after even the party itself seemed to be ashamed of the logo and brand - then they're implicit in condoning incompetence and corruption.

Because even some new "local" candidates running in my area used Seanad and Oireachtas envelopes to con me into opening their junk mail, proving they're not immune to abusing expenses and State mechanisms to further their own careers and try to con me into thinking their letter is important; and in doing so THEY made a link between national and local.

P. Breathnach

ShooterSF wrote: »

Well if 46% of the voters voted against the government ...

I think the point that Effluo was making was that nobody was actually voting for or against the government. In terms of what was on offer in the local elections, it is a fair point.

I think it is true to say that many people thought they were voting against the government (and some might have thought that they were voting for the government). It was an inappropriate, if understandable, motivation.

gcgirl

National issues are affecting me not the local ones where as the County manager and Town clerks have the final say on anything so there is no real power!
Withdrawal of Special needs classes
Withdrawal of Speech Therapy unit
Hospital funding cut received letter saying that my youngest daughters appointment has been cancelled again!waiting since last Aug
Still waiting for sons appointment for ENT consultant been waiting since last Sept!
Funding has been cut from Playschool son has been attending!
Affordable Childcare?? Ireland dont do it!!

Effluo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think the point that Effluo was making was that nobody was actually voting for or against the government. In terms of what was on offer in the local elections, it is a fair point.

I think it is true to say that many people thought they were voting against the government (and some might have thought that they were voting for the government). It was an inappropriate, if understandable, motivation.

Yes, you and Sir Baralot have hit the nail on the head.
People for some reason saw this as a way to protest against the current government in the dail....

Who knows where they got that idea from eh?

gcgirl

Effluo wrote: »

Yes, you and Sir Baralot have hit the nail on the head.
People for some reason saw this as a way to protest against the current government in the dail....

Who knows where they got that idea from eh?

Who pays for their posters??

Dr. Baltar

It's true what many are saying in this thread. It's not like local councillors actually have that much power.
National Issues affect us much more than the local ones and for that reason many people simply use the local elections as a protest vote because often times they really don't care who runs the cities as much as they care who is sitting in the Dáil.

The Raven.

Well if the 46% are that 'thick', how come it worked :rolleyes:?? Anyone watching RTE tonight will be in no doubt that FF and the Greens are gob-smacked at the results. The Greens are now reconsidering their role in government, and they may just decide to pull out.

My local vote was based on who would be best to serve on my local council. However, I have never voted for Fianna Fail and never will. I don't think anyone with a modicum of intelligence could be a member of that party, given their track record.




God, I wish that lewd looking naked man on the Chorus NTL advertisement would stop winking at me !!

P. Breathnach

The Raven. wrote: »

Well if the 46% are that 'thick', how come it worked :rolleyes:?? Anyone watching RTE tonight will be in no doubt that FF and the Greens are gob-smacked at the results.

Sure, they are gobsmacked. But that wasn't what the election was about.

The Greens are now reconsidering their role in government, and they may just decide to pull out.

It might have the opposite effect. At the moment, the Greens have nowhere to go. They might decide to hang in there in the belief that things can't get worse, and might just get better. Similarly, FF might now believe that could do a bit better if they tough it out for a year or two before facing the electorate.

My local vote was based on who would be best to serve on my local council.

A good basis for deciding.

However, I have never voted for Fianna Fail and never will. I don't think anyone with a modicum of intelligence could be a member of that party, given their track record.

I know a few quite bright people who are active in FF and who also are honourable people. Privately, they are prepared to admit that they are perturbed by the antics of the dishonest and dishonourable in their party, and they hope to change things.

I also know people in some of the other parties who I would not consider particularly gifted, and I would have concerns about the honesty of one or two of them.

The problem that FF has is not the small number of corrupt people in the party, or the somewhat larger number of dishonourable ones. The problem is that the party culture has evolved so that their misbehaviour is not dealt with.

lostexpectation

Effluo wrote: »

Hi everyone,
I have to get something off my chest and feel quite foolish for not posting this here before the actual elections.
I suppose it was really only when the election results came in was i finally awoken to what i find to be a rather disturbing truth.

Nearly half of the Irish electorate made a mistake in the process of deciding who they were going to vote for in their "local" council elections.


A stat came out yesterday from rte and it read that 54% of people who voted on Friday for the local elections voted for people and what they believed the people could do for the community, while 46% voted for parties and voted due to the way that the economic crisis has been handled....

Am I the only person who see's something vitally wrong here?
These are local elections which concern the running of county councils and town councils...

I voted for the people which I believe will do the best work for my community, what the hell happened to everyone else!!!

Can anyone of that 46% answer intelligently and back up their answer to why you would vote in a local election on a national matter?
It's just.....

........

Are 46% of us really that thick?

can you smell the ff'er

osnola ibax

Either reason is a valid reason to vote if u ask me, the media / opposition tried to turn it into a protest vote. Ultimately local government services / policies are dictated from the centre and a lot of important decisions are taken by the head of administration. I think it's much of a muchness who u vote in to local government to b honest.

Councillors represent people quite well when looking for services fr the council but I'm not sure I'll ever need them for anything other than street lighting. Do they still have the power to zone land? That's been a controversial one in the past. As it turned out I voted for the person with the caveat they were not ff

IrishSerf

[quot

Can anyone of that 46% answer intelligently and back up their answer to why you would vote in a local election on a national matter?
It's just.....

I don't think it matters a whole pile who sits on the locals if they all have the community as their priority and can set aside their colours, but we had only one chance to show the present government what we think of them and we have voted accordingly. Long live democracy!

conchubhar1

two things shock me and need more attention than this crap about a protest vote


low turnout (never mind europe or the past turnouts it was still low)
25% support for fianna fáil - wtf!?!

IrishSerf

At least the greens got what they deserved. I'll never again vote for the cycling leeches.

conchubhar1

IrishSerf wrote: »

At least the greens got what they deserved. I'll never again vote for the cycling leeches.

explain?

yes they deserve it, but i would be much happier if fianna fáil suffererd the same defeat - not just a huge loss

fryup

Effluo wrote: »

Are 46% of us really that thick?

you betya:cool:

Ludo

Effluo wrote: »

Can anyone of that 46% answer intelligently and back up their answer to why you would vote in a local election on a national matter?
It's just.....

Well to me, all of the candidates in the local election had the exact same policies. You could predict EXACTLY what would be on each flyer before you read it as they ALL said the same thing and wanted the same thing. So everyone has the same policies...nothing to distinguish the candidates there.

I am new to the area I voted in so I didn't know any of the candidates or know their abilities .... nothing to distinguish them there either unfortunately. Hopefully this will change although I suspect I will not see them again until the next election so it probably won't change.

What am I left with...parties. I strongly disapprove of FF so, to my way of thinking, a candidate who is a member of FF has demonstrated a distinct lack of intelligence and credibility....that automatically rules them out!

Decision made.

osnola ibax

Ludo +1

Liam Byrne

IrishSerf wrote: »

I don't think it matters a whole pile who sits on the locals if they all have the community as their priority and can set aside their colours

And as soon as we see the bits in bold, we might be able to vote that way.

The only aspect of FF "setting aside their colours" was hiding their logo.

On everything else (e.g. the impact of Aer Lingus abandoning Shannon) they sat back on their arses and didn't put pressure on their party by threatening to resign.

So if their party gives us the two fingers, we'll do likewise. If they left their party and showed that they put the interests of their community first, instead of their party, then they wouldn't have had to deal with the backlash.

is_that_so

Effluo wrote: »

These are local elections which concern the running of county councils and town councils...

I voted for the people which I believe will do the best work for my community, what the hell happened to everyone else!!!

Can anyone of that 46% answer intelligently and back up their answer to why you would vote in a local election on a national matter?
It's just.....

........

Are 46% of us really that thick?

Or we are just politically astute although this does have hints of "The people have spoken, the bastards" . As others have commented councils have very little real power and the image of the gombeen councillors is a strong one. In that respect it doesn't really matter who we pick. We see local elections for what they are; in the main, party activists who fancy a shot at playing at politics and a ragtag collection of fringe parties and independents with a cause. That's not to say there is no talent at all or that some of these causes are not good ones, but many councillors are mediocre to poor at the best of times.

I personally struggled with what was on offer in my own area although part of my tactical voting was to ensure that certain parties do not have a pool of candidates for the next general election. The real power lies with the county manager anyway, who gets to spend the money although s/he is "employed" by councils.

We are not alone in how we vote. Almost every other EU country does exactly the same thing. Generally it's a pure protest vote but this one was different in that it was targeted at a government which spouts meaningless soundbytes about difficult decisions, communicates very badly, continues to underestimate the social and political ramifications of most their policies and more importantly refuses to listen to anyone. On balance I think we got this one right.

Sand

You cant seperate the party from the candidate. If there was a box for "Im voting for this guy only as an individual, i despise his party and his gormless leaders stupidity so please dont consider this a vote for a FF councillor - except that it is. Kinda. But only cos I like the politician as an individual. But not FF. Oh I think I need to lie down now" then maybe there would be a possibility of that. Hence, the 54% who voted ignoring the parties they were voting for have the real problem.

Now if there was a great candidate doing great work, but in the wrong party Id simply tell them - "Sorry, I cant vote for you right now because it might be mistaken as support of your party which I cant abide. Run as an independant or switch to another party and you will have my vote".

Sully

Whats worth noting here is that while its about local issues - why should people stand by and elect a candidate who aligns himself with a party that has a poor record or they don't support? At the end of the day, by voting for a particular candidate who runs with a party is two votes: A vote of approval for the candidate and the party. Some of the FF candidates who ran as Independent got elected, but if they remained with FF there chances were probably a lot slimmer.

electrogrimey

What people don't realise is that councillors actually do have quite a lot of power, not just the little Cllr. on their next election poster... The whole property developer/Fianna Fáil tag-team against the economy was made possible by the fact that Fianna Fáil controlled all the councils, who they used to rezone land etc (even if they no longer have that power, the damage is done).

Koyasan

The Raven. wrote: »

The Greens are now reconsidering their role in government, and they may just decide to pull out.

I really doubt that. If I were a Green Minister, I would see the result and think that this was the worst possible time for a General Election to be called for my election prospects. I would see the forthcoming Copenhagen conference and recognise that having a Green Minster at that is more important that the survival of the party after the next election.

So I really doubt that'll happen. In fact, the results would pressurise me to stay. I would recognise that FF are desperate to remain in power, no matter (1) what and that a new programme for government could be negotiated that was even Green-er(2).

1. 1992 Lab/FG and Lab/FF post-election negotiations and acceptance of Labour demands.
2. Comparison of Green manifesto before the last election to the programme for government. Both easily available online

Koyasan

P.S. The people will now get the bad planning, dodgy rezoning, and housing estates built on flood plains with no public transport or education facilities that they deserve.

Sand

Sand wrote: »

You cant seperate the party from the candidate. If there was a box for "Im voting for this guy only as an individual, i despise his party and his gormless leaders stupidity so please dont consider this a vote for a FF councillor - except that it is. Kinda. But only cos I like the politician as an individual. But not FF. Oh I think I need to lie down now" then maybe there would be a possibility of that. Hence, the 54% who voted ignoring the parties they were voting for have the real problem.

Now if there was a great candidate doing great work, but in the wrong party Id simply tell them - "Sorry, I cant vote for you right now because it might be mistaken as support of your party which I cant abide. Run as an independant or switch to another party and you will have my vote".

+1. Spot on.

Local Politicians join the party that reflects their own policies, otherwise why join? If its simply to get the backing of a larger party, without agreeing to their policies, then they're already compromised, and hardly worth trusting. Better to go out on your own and stand by your own opinions. I guess that's why I tend to pay more attention to the Independents.

Koyasan wrote: »

P.S. The people will now get the bad planning, dodgy rezoning, and housing estates built on flood plains with no public transport or education facilities that they deserve.

Strange.. We've already gotten most of that over the last ten years... Although you didn't include corruption, and back handers to businesses regardless of the effects on the community. :rolleyes:

electrogrimey

Koyasan wrote: »

P.S. The people will now get the bad planning, dodgy rezoning, and housing estates built on flood plains with no public transport or education facilities that they deserve.

As far as I can see why already have far more than we deserve!

Mr.Micro

Originally Posted by Koyasan
P.S. The people will now get the bad planning, dodgy rezoning, and housing estates built on flood plains with no public transport or education facilities that they deserve.

It would make no difference which party CC was elected, at least in this neck of the woods. CC from all the parties were involved with planning, even supporting re zoning for profit. Its the law that needs to be enforced here as corruption is not restricted to any one political party.

Mr.Micro

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It would make no difference which party CC was elected, at least in this neck of the woods. CC from all the parties were involved with planning, even supporting re zoning for profit. Its the law that needs to be enforced here as corruption is not restricted to any one political party.

Great point although, I think the law needs to be more than just enforced.. A thorough investigation of the decisions of the people who were in power, and criminal charges applied to those who abused their positions. As it is, they'd just hold expensive investigations with no punishments.

Until there is a system in place where politicians are personally responsible for the decisions they make, there will continue to be the same types of corruption. But then I don't expect any Irish politician to ever agree to such changes in their "safe" system of powermongering.

DB10

It is disgraceful. There was a very good candidate in my area who promised to address all the local issues and was standing for the first time.

The local council had already been attacked from all ends for some of their shady dealings and disgraceful selling out and failure to listen.

Yet the the same people were voted in because of FF and FG followers voting for the party and not the person.

fly_agaric

Koyasan wrote: »

I would recognise that FF are desperate to remain in power, no matter (1) what and that a new programme for government could be negotiated that was even Green-er(2).

The Greens pull the plug now & they can kiss their party goodbye! (edit: the current parliamentary party anyway)

Their "emergency stop" button for the current coalition has become a suicide switch. FF will know this and concessions made will be minimal.

is_that_so

electrogrimey wrote: »

What people don't realise is that councillors actually do have quite a lot of power, not just the little Cllr. on their next election poster... The whole property developer/Fianna Fáil tag-team against the economy was made possible by the fact that Fianna Fáil controlled all the councils, who they used to rezone land etc (even if they no longer have that power, the damage is done).

Not true, the Minister for the Environment can overturn large scale rezoning using the 2000 Planning and Development Act. Gormley is really the first one to use that power, even though it was available. The new expected and much needed Planning and Development Bill 2009 will give further powers.

electrogrimey

Well as I already said, the damage is done, and no amount of acts giving power to the government will help if the government is run by the same crooks as the councils were. Any power we can take off Fianna Fáil is to me a good thing...

Koyasan

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It would make no difference which party CC was elected, at least in this neck of the woods.

I don't know what your neck of the woods is, but I can tell you that in West Dublin and North County Dublin, there is a significant increase in scrutiny of development and rezoning projects, and the blocking and ammendment of dodgy projects (Edmundsberry, Adams, etc. etc.) when the CC has Independent and Green members compared to when it has FF, FG and to a lesser extent Labour members.

I see a link between this and the acceptance of donations from Developers (the declared contributions are all online and you can see that FF, then FG, then Labour receive large donatiosn from such groups.)

My comment was not in relation to the past corruption (FF, FG and Labour in relation to Liffey Valley to give just one example, Trevor Sargeant being physically assaulted by a FFer at a meeting when he held up a cheque[bribe] he had received) but in relation to the future bad planning that will result due to the County development plans being made. The people who voted for FF,FG and Labour councillors who receive donations have only themselves to blame now. An alternative existed and they choose not to take it.

Darragh29

Effluo wrote: »

Hi everyone,
I have to get something off my chest and feel quite foolish for not posting this here before the actual elections.
I suppose it was really only when the election results came in was i finally awoken to what i find to be a rather disturbing truth.

Nearly half of the Irish electorate made a mistake in the process of deciding who they were going to vote for in their "local" council elections.


A stat came out yesterday from rte and it read that 54% of people who voted on Friday for the local elections voted for people and what they believed the people could do for the community, while 46% voted for parties and voted due to the way that the economic crisis has been handled....

Am I the only person who see's something vitally wrong here?
These are local elections which concern the running of county councils and town councils...

I voted for the people which I believe will do the best work for my community, what the hell happened to everyone else!!!

Can anyone of that 46% answer intelligently and back up their answer to why you would vote in a local election on a national matter?
It's just.....

........

Are 46% of us really that thick?

On the face of it OP, your argument makes sense. However, when you stratch the surface a little, you could come to the conclusion, as I did, that we have a party in this country called Fianna Fail which has f*cked up our country with p*ss poor policy decisions over the last 12 years, which has pandered to every vested interest that could be inflicted upon a country, and has failed the people of this country. We are now in a very serious situation with regard to one matter in particular which is unemployment.

Now the same party that has been running the nations affairs for the last 12 years, who are responsible for a financial regulator that appeared to be afraid of regulating banks, a central bank that was literally sound asleep, a government that pandered to big business interests, that brought us the annual ATM we now know as "benchmarking", the party that has created an absolute monster of inefficiency in the public sector, the party that has half the children in this country being taught in portacabins after the biggest boom the country has ever seen... 10,000 people a month joining the dole queue and not a sign of a strategy in place to stem job losses, some 12 months after this problem first emerged.

That same party, Fianna Fail, think it's ok to knock on my door and tell me that they might have f*cking ruined the country, but they can be trusted at local level because. "sure you know yourself, it's only local issues you need to think about"...

I personally see that mantra, "consider local issues only please", as an affront to my intelligence. Fianna Fail need to be opposed on every front, local level, national level, European level, everywhere, so that this vexatious cancer that has eating away at our country and ruining the hope of the Irish people, can be dropped into the political dustbin for once and for all.

Darragh29

Another thing... As a voter, my opinion with regard to how I think I should vote, is nothing less than absolute. I can vote any particular way for any particular reason or indeed for no reason at all!

This same issue was thrown up in the Lisbon referendum on the last occasion, that basically if I was voting on anything at all, other than the substantive issue that was the text of the treaty, then I was an ars*hole who shouldn't have been allowed to vote... I decided that I didn't like the way when we are asked for a national opinion on EU treaties, that you can vote any way that you like, but you'll keep voting until you give the right answer. On this basis, I voted no, and will continue to vote no until I start seeing an EU that respects the Irish constituency...

To ask people to not consider wider issues that might exist around an election I think is to treat them with contempt...

Bragadin

I'd like to think i'll always vote for the issue on the ballot paper. I'm as dissatisfied with the current government as much as anyone, and the party did factor into my vote, but i looked at their local policies first and voted accordingly.

It feels like a diservice to my democratic right to treat every ballot as a general oppinion poll (thats what the general election is for), sabotaging the government in this manner eventually punishes the electorate as much as elected.

ChocolateSauce

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i personaly can not give a vote to anyone who stands with fianna fáil or the greens, still after the mess they helped create.

Agreed. I couldn't bring myself to vote for anyone in FF unless they were well and truly spectacular, and I can only name three people who fit that criteria, and none of them a FFers- Senators Ivana Bakic and David Norris and Cllr Luke "Ming" Flanagan.

irish_bob

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Agreed. I couldn't bring myself to vote for anyone in FF unless they were well and truly spectacular, and I can only name three people who fit that criteria, and none of them a FFers- Senators Ivana Bakic and David Norris and Cllr Luke "Ming" Flanagan.

i take a fianna failer over any of those three stooges any day and i hate FF