Should gay marriage be legal in Ireland?

aDeener

The_Minister wrote: »

I reread my post, and I'm sorry that I implied that you had your cranium up your anus.:o I shouldn't have said that.
It is just one of those things that gets to me; a pet hate.
I always see shades of grey - I don't believe that more than a handful of issues are black and white.
I always see the other side (or nearly always), and I just weigh up the good and bad, acknowledging both, and then decide which one outweighs which (this is why I could never be a politician).
I can't stand when people try and pretend (and I'm not specifically talking about you, you just happened to be the post I responded to) that there is no valid opinion on the other side. That the other side is completely wrong, and their opposition or proposition is entirely without basis, when, very often, they do have some basis.

I think there are downsides to gay marriage:
I do think it will damage the institution of marriage, in much the same way as I believe that divorce damaged it by turning it from a permanent commitment to a temporary arrangement.
I don't think any oppression of the religious will be as bad here as it is in the USA (we tend to be a bit more sensible here), but I think that religious organisations will find their actions restrained, and their members put in awkward positions.
I think that it will open the door to polygamy (and possibly the decriminalisation of incest).

But on the balance, I am in favour of it.
I see no reason to ignore the downsides, and not seek some way to ameliorate them.

beastiality?

The_Minister

aDeener wrote: »

beastiality?

Animals can't consent (although I have horrible flashbacks of that documentary on More4 where a man who regularly had sex eith a donkey claimed that since it didn't kick him, it was consenting and obviously liked it).

BlitzKrieg

I think that it will open the door to polygamy (and possibly the decriminalisation of incest).

I have to ask how that logic works?



just my warped sense of curiosity.

The_Minister

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

I have to ask how that logic works?



just my warped sense of curiosity.

Incest or polygamy?

Incest has been gone over in detail earlier in the thread, polygamy - just common sense.
How can you say yes to gay marriage and say no to polygamy?

McArmalite

It shouldn't be allowed, in fact I think homosexuality itself should be outlawed. This may sound contradictory, but I can understand maybe two women been attracted to one another. But two men ............ :mad::mad:

BlitzKrieg

I'll have a look back at the incest discussion

I was thinking the polygamy point was a matter of precedent, but I was curious if there was more to it then that.

philologos

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

I feel like I have, but if it suits you better to ignore me than huzzah for you.

I'm just saying that I don't think that you have been interested in showing us how our concerns may be mistaken, but you have been concerned like a few others on this thread with making people who do have genuine concerns look like bigots.

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

But why should the ability to have children be a factor in determining whether two people can get married? Not every married couple even wants children.

If we are to truly consider the prospect of gay marriage we also need to assess the impacts it could have on adoption or in the formation of families. The Irish Constitution says that a marriage is the foundation of the family.

If the rights of a child to have both a mother and a father were considered in this argument and if the rights of children to have both a mother and a father weren't compromised I'd certainly be a lot closer to coming to your position.

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

Lol, I'm not the one speaking out against gay marriage. I believe I'm being far more reasonable here.

I support traditional marriage for a reason. I think I'm being more reasonable than most of the people in these threads. I'll need assurances that gay marriage will not impact the right of children to have both a mother and a father, and I'll need assurances that religious freedoms will not be compromised before I can ever support such a measure.

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

Case 1: Christians (or any major faith) don't want gay people attending their church or getting married in their church, but will accept gay marriage in society as long as it doesn't interfere with them practicing their faith. That's reasonable.

I would love homosexuals as much as any other minority to come and attend my church. In a church a marriage is to be between a man and a woman so that option will not be available. However, I think homosexuals are entirely welcome to know about the truth and the life of Jesus Christ.

You are implying that Christians in general hate homosexuals when they really don't.

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

Case 2: Christians don't want gay people getting married anywhere because they say "Down with this sort of thing" and frown upon homosexuality in general. That's not reasonable or acceptable as far as I'm concerned.

I don't want gay marriage to go ahead because there are so many concerns that aren't being dealt with. I would need assurances on these concerns before I could ever get behind it.

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

I believe it's possible for gay marriage and freedom of religion to coexist. If that's entirely impossible, then I believe that freedom of religion should be compromised.

The rights of a loving same sex couple > The rights of someone practicing a religion that may be entirely false.

I think this is wrong, and if people are going to have such a flippant attitude towards my religious freedom I won't be supporting anything they propogate that affects this religious freedom.

Mind you were my rights to religious freedom restricted, I would continue in my faith as I had done before even if it were illegal to do so.

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

I haven't personally insulted anyone here. If your definition of a mature debate means emotionally dettaching myself from the subject, then I'm afraid I can't do that because it is an emotional subject and it does mean a lot to me. I am genuinely outraged that not only is gay marriage not legal here yet but that there are a fairly large number of people continuing to speak against it.

Ad-hominems have been thrown where they weren't necessary. Having concerns about gay marriage does not make you stupid. It only means that you want assurances as to the effects that gay marriage could have, and the fact that the pro gay marriage lobby are so unwilling to deal with these concerns exasperates them. It makes people think that they don't want to clarify them or to put people at ease about them. The second these concerns are cleared up I will be more open to the concept. Until then I cannot support it.

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

But I don't respect your position on this subject, Jakkass. I respect your right to opinions and your right to express them, that doesn't mean I have to have any respect for them.

I'm not asking you to respect my position. I'm asking you to respect those who disagree with you (i.e the people), and have a civil discussion with them instead of engaging in smear tactics like implying that those who aren't convinced of what you are convinced of are stupid.

pinkfeather

galwayrush wrote: »

Why marriage? Civil partnerships are recognised and legal, surely that's enough.

Why not marriage, your saying that gay people should have to settle for second best so to speak, how is that fair?

dimejinky99

Gay people should be allowed and extended the rights and protections of the constitution every other person who is a citizen of the state is and without exception or exemption. But with that our constitution needs to be amended to include and protect everyone. it wasn't written for these types of situations and we're in a different world now.

Also free/compulsory lobotomies for all the brain dead people who think gays shouldn't be allowed marry/adopt.

mink_man

they are as like as 2 gays in a pod!

That_Guy

McArmalite wrote: »

It shouldn't be allowed, in fact I think homosexuality itself should be outlawed. This may sound contradictory, but I can understand maybe two women been attracted to one another. But two men ............ :mad::mad:

No "may" about it. It is bloody contradictory.

You sound exactly like my "homophobic" friend who hates the thought of two men with each other but can yet be aroused by two women. It's completely contradictory and I hear this all the time from lads and it absolutely wrecks my head.

When any guy I know here's the word homosexual being uttered they automatically think of two guys. Very bloody annoying.

I hate the fact that people look down on homosexuality. It's more so guys though that seem to be targeted more from the stories I've often heard. It's as if there's something "wrong" with these people. Guys getting beaten up for liking other men is just absolutely ridiculous and disgusting.

It's all down to the church saying that it's wrong etc and then we have cases of priests molesting young boys.

In this day and age surely it should be allowed to happen.

citizen_p

they should be allowed marry.....
but not allowed adopt

bronte

McArmalite wrote: »

It shouldn't be allowed, in fact I think homosexuality itself should be outlawed. This may sound contradictory, but I can understand maybe two women been attracted to one another. But two men ............ :mad::mad:

I hope you're taking the piss.

Dennis the Stone

bronte wrote: »

I hope you're taking the piss.

Probably not is the depressing thing.

McArmalite

McArmalite wrote: »

It shouldn't be allowed, in fact I think homosexuality itself should be outlawed. This may sound contradictory, but I can understand maybe two women been attracted to one another. But two men ............ :mad::mad:

Have you just a bad sense of humour or did your mother drop you on the head a lot?

bevan619

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

No. The problem is when two gay guys get married they'll then start having gay kids. Then before you know it the gayness will spread like wild fire.

You can't have a 'gay kid' lol.

Back to the topic.

I am all for this. My cousin has had a boyfriend for like 5 years now and they're going to England to live and get married (they live in Tenerife at the moment and his boyfriend is English). My cousin left here because he was gay and because of the homophobia here.

And just so you know I'm 14 (and not gay) and all for this. My friend is gay and he's a nice guy.

That_Guy

bevan619 wrote: »

You can't have a 'gay kid' lol.

Back to the topic.

I am all for this. My cousin has had a boyfriend for like 5 years now and they're going to England to live and get married (they live in Tenerife at the moment and his boyfriend is English). My cousin left here because he was gay and because of the homophobia here.

And just so you know I'm 14 (and not gay) and all for this. My friend is gay and he's a nice guy.

Thank you. Gay people are people too and I know plenty of them. They're all really nice guys and I get on well with all of them.

Just like people with disabilities they should not be treated differently.

KeyLimePie

Gay marriage will not lead to incestual marriage for the simple reason that straight marriage didn't lead to gay marriage

Gay marriage came from governments respecting our human rights after being persecuted after so many years, it's not like people sat around and went HMM WHAT CAN WE MARRY NEXT.

So anyone who says that a brother and sister can marry cause of adam and steve can screw themselves =D

javaboy

KeyLimePie wrote: »

So anyone who says that a brother and sister can marry cause of adam and steve can screw themselves =D

You can have homosexuality, incest, bestiality, polygamy and origami but I'll be cold in my grave before I'll stand for people marrying themselves! :mad:

twinytwo

have no problem with gay marriage... said couple being able to adopt that a different issue

Whosbetter?

A civil thing might be alright for 'em.

Otherwise,what's the point?

It beggars belief to me that they want the same deal as the rest of us.

Simply put, they're not the same as the rest of us & bleeding heart liberals/crusties/hippies/SF voters/Rosport activists, should just get used to it!

Sick of listning to the perverts in society.

It's always gonna cost the rest of us, financially, or otherwise.

KnifeWRENCH

Jakkass wrote: »

I would love homosexuals as much as any other minority to come and attend my church. In a church a marriage is to be between a man and a woman so that option will not be available. However, I think homosexuals are entirely welcome to know about the truth and the life of Jesus Christ.

You are implying that Christians in general hate homosexuals when they really don't.

That is not AT ALL what I was implying. I didn't come here with an anti-Christian agenda. If your church (I don't know what type of Christian you are) welcomes gay people to attend, that's good. I don't disagree with a religious group not allowing gay people married in places of worship - I made that clear earlier on. What I disagree with is religious groups speaking out against gay marriage even if the couple in question have or want nothin to do with that religion. I'm all for allowing religious freedom as long as it doesn't interfere with peoples' rights. As far as I'm concerned, marriage is primarily a civil/legal ceremony and gay people should have as much right to do it as straight people.

I don't want gay marriage to go ahead because there are so many concerns that aren't being dealt with. I would need assurances on these concerns before I could ever get behind it.

I'm not the best person to address your concerns because to be perfectly honest none of them concern me.
I feel like I have addressed your concerns, I just haven't given you the answers you want to hear.

These are my personal views on your concerns:
The impact gay marriage will have on the "traditional family unit"? Sorry but "the traditional family unit" is an outdated notion. There are no "normal" families, each family is different. Who's to say that the home of a married heterosexual couple is the best environment to raise a child? Every couple is different; some married couples make wonderful parents, others not so much. Gay couples, however, would have to be scrutinised very carefully before an adoption agency would hand them a child.

This leads to gay adoption? Fantastic. Bring it on.

Gay marriage interfering with practice of religion? I think this can be avoided. If not, then I believe that the right to marriage is greater than the right to religious freedom and so the latter should be forced to accept gay marriage in society.

Gay marriage leads to incest and polygamy? I don't think it will, but if it does, meh. I don't condemn incest or polygamy and would have no problems with them being legal.

The second these concerns are cleared up I will be more open to the concept. Until then I cannot support it.

As above, the concerns you have don't concern me whatsoever. So as far as I' concerned, everything is cleared up.

Whosbetter?

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

I don't condemn incest or polygamy and would have no problems with them being legal.


As above, the concerns you have don't concern me whatsoever. So as far as I' concerned, everything is cleared up.

Yeah, that's well cleared up.:rolleyes:

jill_valentine

KeyLimePie wrote: »

it's not like people sat around and went HMM WHAT CAN WE MARRY NEXT.

I laughed good and loud at this.

No good reason to keep gay marriage down. "Seperate but equal" is supposed to be a thing of the past...

CAPSLOCK365

O'TOOLE79 wrote: »

In my opinion without a doubt, I mean its absolute nonsense that in the 21st century a religous nut from the sticks in some backwater in Ireland can restrict the freedom of a person who lives hundreds of miles away.

I'm not gay and if I seen two gay guys I might have a little snigger to myself on the odd occassion but when it comes down to it I fully support same sex marriage.

I have added a poll, please give me some faith in the people of this country because sometimes I just don't know.:rolleyes:

You realise that marriage is the product of some religous nut's, from the backwater of God knows where, imagination, right?

Also, I'm sure that I could track down at least one religous non-nut, one non-religous nut and one non-religous non-nut from every CITY in the world who disagrees with gay marriage.

I don't care either way, I just find your phrasing to be a bit on the retarded side. Not you, your construction of your post.

rainbow kirby

CAPSLOCK365 wrote: »

You realise that marriage is the product of some religous nut's, from the backwater of God knows where, imagination, right?

Wrong, marriage was originally a civil contract before it ever had religious meaning.

CAPSLOCK365

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Wrong, marriage was originally a civil contract before it ever had religious meaning.

Prove it.

KnifeWRENCH

Whosbetter? wrote: »

Yeah, that's well cleared up.:rolleyes:

It is isn't it? Oh I'm so glad you agree. I get ever so upset when people on the internet don't feel exactly the same way as I do. Some of them go as far as to use SARCASM! :eek: Oh it hurts so so badly. I wish everyone was as agreeable and sincere as you.

rainbow kirby

CAPSLOCK365 wrote: »

Prove it.

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/ATLAS_EN/html/history_of_marriage_in_western.html

McArmalite

That_Guy wrote: »

No "may" about it. It is bloody contradictory.

You sound exactly like my "homophobic" friend who hates the thought of two men with each other but can yet be aroused by two women. It's completely contradictory and I hear this all the time from lads and it absolutely wrecks my head.

When any guy I know here's the word homosexual being uttered they automatically think of two guys. Very bloody annoying.

I hate the fact that people look down on homosexuality. It's more so guys though that seem to be targeted more from the stories I've often heard. It's as if there's something "wrong" with these people. Guys getting beaten up for liking other men is just absolutely ridiculous and disgusting.

It's all down to the church saying that it's wrong etc and then we have cases of priests molesting young boys.

In this day and age surely it should be allowed to happen.

" I hear this all the time from lads and it absolutely wrecks my head. " Well obviously I'm not in a minority, just because me and others refuse to kid ourselves with the politically correct stance and think it's enlightened and cool to tolerate gays. To be honest I did once or twice enage in a bit of gay bullying in my late teens but that was many years ago and it's somethiing I'm genuinely very regretful of. No matter what noone deserves to be mistreated because they are different and as I said it's somethiing I'm genuinely very regretful of. I won't say it's down to the church ( God knows their blamed for everything these days - and I'm certainly no lover of the Catholic Church. In fact I'd probably be an atheist, but religion never has entered my head ).

Say what you will, a straight man doesn't like gay men - or for that matter the big fat slobs of lesbians who are just man haters under it all.

bluewolf wrote: »

Have you just a bad sense of humour or did your mother drop you on the head a lot?

No, I just like crumpet, that's all.

javaboy

Quit trolling McArmalite.

Fierce x

Yes absolutely! Would you trade your marriage for a civil partnership, if they're both "equal"?

baileyjackson

CAPSLOCK365 wrote: »

Prove it.

Hes Right, previously marriage was done for Land, Respect, Status etc. Binding contract, man owned women.
By this I mean you married for personal gain, not ''Love''

The ''Romance'' and ''Love'' we strive for is only maybe 200 years old! Read some Sociology books on Social Contact. Very Interesting

cooperguy

I am 100% in favour of gay marriage there is no reason that I can see why it shouldnt happen.

Gay adoption however im not as comfortable with. The reason I say that is firstly I dont think anybody has the right to adopt whether they are gay or straight. The principal reason for adoption is because the child needs a good home for whatever reason. It is first and foremost for the child.

I think that an ideal couple for adoption are a man and a woman for the simple reason that in a relationship and in looking after children men and woman usually would have a slightly different approach to situations and ideally I think a child should have the benefit of both sexes and perspectives growing up.

I know there are some terrible straight couples with children and its unfortunate that more cant be done to protect the children in those situations but when an adoption board strives to find as close to the perfect couple for a child then surely that couple would have both sexes involved ?

bevan619

cooperguy wrote: »

I am 100% in favour of gay marriage there is no reason that I can see why it shouldnt happen.

Gay adoption however im not as comfortable with. The reason I say that is firstly I dont think anybody has the right to adopt whether they are gay or straight. The principal reason for adoption is because the child needs a good home for whatever reason. It is first and foremost for the child.

I think that an ideal couple for adoption are a man and a woman for the simple reason that in a relationship and in looking after children men and woman usually would have a slightly different approach to situations and ideally I think a child should have the benefit of both sexes and perspectives growing up.

I know there are some terrible straight couples with children and its unfortunate that more cant be done to protect the children in those situations but when an adoption board strives to find as close to the perfect couple for a child then surely that couple would have both sexes involved ?

But sometimes one of the men is quite feminine.

thebullkf

its an abomination against nature and god.

thelordofcheese

thebullkf wrote: »

its an abomination against nature and god.

Have you asked god? I did. Guy loves gay weddings, thinks they're great.

And if the big guy is cool with them, well who are we to argue.

thebullkf

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Have you asked god? I did. Guy loves gay weddings, thinks they're great.

And if the big guy is cool with them, well who are we to argue.

god is a girl!!!!

and she loves an oul hot beef injection

thelordofcheese

thebullkf wrote: »

god is a girl!!!!

Got an awfully big adams apple for a girl.......

thebullkf

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Got an awfully big adams apple for a girl.......

thats a ball holder for maximum oral pleasure:pac:

derby7

Where have all the real men gone...............

Imagine in a few years time, 99.99% of all men are ghey, I suppose it will have its advantages, I'm the only one left !!!!!, no more wars, no more corrupted politicians or bankers (loads of fashion designers tho!), and the world population will grind to a halt !

thelordofcheese

derby7 wrote: »

Where have all the real men gone...............
I'm the only one left

I assure you, you are not.

derby7

I assure you, you are not

...denial is the 1st sign

thelordofcheese

derby7 wrote: »

...denial is the 1st sign

That.....doesn't make any sense.

Nodin

thelordofcheese wrote: »

That.....doesn't make any sense.

Its a variant of the Wookie defence.

ding-dong

Same-sex marriage should be a non-issue. It should have never been illegal in the first place. Religion should have nothing to do with civil marriage. The bible advocates the slave trade but we decided to ignore that quite some time ago. It's time for society to move on and stop being so ignorant. Sexual orientation is not a choice and homosexual relationships deserve the same legal recognition as heterosexual relationships. In the US, the states with the highest divorce rates are those most opposed to same-sex marriage, while those with the lowest divorce rates are most supportive of same-sex marriage. Perhaps the possibility of a same-sex couple having a more functional and legitimate relationship makes people feel bitter? That same-sex marriage is illegal is absurd. If one party of a same-sex relationship gets gender reassignment surgery then BAM, the couple can get married! A gay man can marry a lesbian woman (and their partners can marry each other), so as to get the benefits, but they can't marry the people they love. I guess gay people who want to get married and have a life which is respected by the law should just stay in the closet. Hey, that's how they do it in New York:

From [url]www.medicalnewstoday.com:[/url]
"Almost 10% of men who said they were straight had had sex with at least one man during the last twelve months, according to a new study carried out by the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. 70% of them were married." (Full study HERE)

We need to work towards eradicating homophobia on all levels. Ensuring that same-sex relationships are not seen as "lesser" relationships is a first step. There's an article in the Sun today about the ridiculous amount of "straight" married men cruising gay internet dating sites for hook-ups. Is this what people mean when they talk about the sanctity of marriage?

As for the people who are against gay adoption - seriously folks, there have been countless studies done on this subject.

CANADIAN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT:

"Parenting by same-sex families is just as good -- if not slightly advantageous -- for children when compared to heterosexual families, a Justice Department study has concluded."

"The paper references about 100 studies on parenting and children's development."

WEBMD:

"The vast consensus of all the studies shows that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way," she tells WebMD. "In some ways children of same-sex parents actually may have advantages over other family structures."

AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION:

"Fears about children of lesbians and gay men being sexually abused by adults, ostracized by peers, or isolated in single-sex lesbian or gay communities have received no support from the results of existing research.
According to a report by the American Psychological Association, not one study out of nearly 50 found children of gay or lesbian parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect to those children raised by heterosexual parents."

And I could keep going if I had the time. SO. MANY. STUDIES. Here you go, a nice happy (married!) gay family: http://www.youtube.com/depfox

OK? Cut the crap and join the 21st century. Society has made some pretty bad mistakes in the past and stigmatizing same-sex relationships is one of them. It's time to move forward.

annelouise

As long as both partners who want to enter into marriage are both over 18 and are adults they should be allowed to do whatever they want including marry.

jenny2hat

Have no idea why it isn't legal already. Nonsense altogether.

thelordofcheese

michelleasia wrote: »

this same topic is here as well http://www.snazzydirectory.ie/board/topic/52
so if like me you want to educate the ignorant
log on and have your say
i am lesbian and proud
but i would shag jerry ryan he has huge tits

Surely you mean jeri Ryan

cock robin

Should gay marriage be legal in Ireland?

Sure isnt every marriage a gay event ? :D:D