Refused two year Guarantee under EU law

darkskol

I bought a HP laptop less than a year and a half ago when for no reason it stops working. So I brought it back to one of the uk and Irelands leading computer stores today but was point blankly refused any comeback without payment for a repair. I told them that we where entitled to 2 year guarantee under EU law but they kept insisting that Ireland and the UK never signed up. Was getting no where so I said I'd contact consumer affairs and they said go ahead. :mad:

Any advice?

MunsterCycling

Small claims court, make them feel the pressure that it will exert on them, ring them and ask or go in if near and get their registered contact details for the form and tell them why you want it, only costs €15 and can be filled online.

MC

jor el

Ireland and the UK were exempted from that 2 year guarantee, because we already have even greater guarantees (up to 6 years) in place.

See this thread, and in particular, this post.

Evolute

darkskol wrote: »

I bought a HP laptop less than a year and a half ago when for no reason it stops working. So I brought it back to one of the uk and Irelands leading computer stores today but was point blankly refused any comeback without payment for a repair. I told them that we where entitled to 2 year guarantee under EU law but they kept insisting that Ireland and the UK never signed up. Was getting no where so I said I'd contact consumer affairs and they said go ahead. :mad:

Any advice?

I agree small claims court is the best way to go

darkskol

Thanks for the replies so far.

So maybe my best bet would be first to go back the the place I bought it and argue durability that a laptop would be expected to last longer than 15 months. Also when I was there they kept saying that I had to go through HP and not them, would I be right in assuming that my contract would be with the shop and not actually the manufacturer?

MunsterCycling

My God how many times are PC World going to try this, (Yes I know you didn't name them but come on we know its them right?)

You only have to deal with the company you purchased from and no one else but you may choose for convenience to deal with the manufacturer directly if this speeds up your claim without prejudicing your right to claim against the retailer.

MC

jor el

You can deal with the manufacturer, but they're as likely as PC World (I'm guessing it's them too) to deny responsibility as it's outside the warranty. They are both liable, and you can pursue either one, you're best to go to the shop though, as you paid them the money in the first place. The shop can then seek remit from the manufacturer.

Go back and tell them, in no uncertain terms, that they are required by law to replace, repair or refund you for the laptop, for a period of up to 6 years from when it was purchased. Tell them if they are unaware of this, then they better get acquainted with it soon. Lastly, tell them that if you don't reach an agreement before you leave the shop, that you will be going to the small claims court, and that you will win.

darc

darkskol wrote: »

I bought a HP laptop less than a year and a half ago when for no reason it stops working. So I brought it back to one of the uk and Irelands leading computer stores today but was point blankly refused any comeback without payment for a repair. I told them that we where entitled to 2 year guarantee under EU law but they kept insisting that Ireland and the UK never signed up. Was getting no where so I said I'd contact consumer affairs and they said go ahead. :mad:

Any advice?

It depends on whether the fault is a manufacturing fault or a fault caused by mis-use. (did something drop on it, was there a power surge etc etc etc.

You would have to get it repaired and ask for a report on what went wrong with the unit to know whether it is the manufacturer's responsibility or not.

darkskol

darc wrote: »

It depends on whether the fault is a manufacturing fault or a fault caused by mis-use. (did something drop on it, was there a power surge etc etc etc.

You would have to get it repaired and ask for a report on what went wrong with the unit to know whether it is the manufacturer's responsibility or not.

No nothing ever dropped or was spilled on it or anything like that. I was always pretty careful when using the laptop. I doubt it was a power surge either since it just went dead one day I was using it on the battery alone (which was about 50% charged).

Paddy@CIRL

jor el wrote: »

... that they are required by law to replace, repair or refund you for the laptop, for a period of up to 6 years from when it was purchased.

Where in law does it state 6 years if you don't mind me asking ? I'm in a similar position to the O.P.

mgsrocks

Ireland and the UK were exempted from that 2 year guarantee, because we already have even greater guarantees (up to 6 years) in place.

Take a look here:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/consumer-affairs/consumer-protection/consumer-rights/guarantees

The first paragraph says the EU directive was passed into law in Ireland in january 2003.

So under irish law your covered for 6 years and under the EU directive your covered for 2. Take your pick op, either way the shop is wrong.

smelltheglove

I wish I knew this 1 year and 1 week after my hp laptop failed.

OP why not print copies of the info in the above links and bring them along to you when you go to the shop, also I would call the citizens advice and find out off them what they think you are entitled to also.

wmpdd3

Bit off topic but is there anywhere you can find out the results or judgments for the small claims court?

Are these claims being held up or are they winning on technicalitys such as the co not turning up?

Absolam

mgsrocks wrote: »

Take a look here:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/consumer-affairs/consumer-protection/consumer-rights/guarantees

The first paragraph says the EU directive was passed into law in Ireland in january 2003.

So under irish law your covered for 6 years and under the EU directive your covered for 2. Take your pick op, either way the shop is wrong.

Actually, if you look at the articles quoted on the website, they don't extend the guarantee already offered in the sale of goods act which is still 'reasonable period'. Citizens Information offers an 'interpretation' of two years.. it's not expressed in Irish legislation.

Paddy@CIRL

Surely its backed up by case law though ?

darc

darkskol wrote: »

No nothing ever dropped or was spilled on it or anything like that. I was always pretty careful when using the laptop. I doubt it was a power surge either since it just went dead one day I was using it on the battery alone (which was about 50% charged).

apologies - wasn't suggesting that. Just it must be a manufacturing fault before it can be claimed under sale of goods act, so the retailer (PC crap customer service World) should have taken the laptop in and diagnosed the problem and then let you know if its covered under free repaair or whether you should ahve paid for it.

I had a isuzu trooper that blew its turbo which caused engine failure and even thhough it was 5 years old, Isuzu replaced the engine & turbo free as it was a manufacturing fault. (didn;t even need to haggle with them!!)

Cunning Alias

If PC World were to send back a laptop to the manufacturer for repair (that is over the manufacturer warrenty) It would always be sent back unrepaired. So not all the blame rests with them. Things may have changed since I worked there though.

OP, have you tried an atx reset? I was amazed at how many dead laptops just needed this. Take out the battery - make sure it isnt plugged in - hold down the power button for a few seconds - put battery back in/plug in - give it a go.

ShooterSF

Cunning Alias wrote: »

If PC World were to send back a laptop to the manufacturer for repair (that is over the manufacturer warrenty) It would always be sent back unrepaired. So not all the blame rests with them. Things may have changed since I worked there though.

OP, have you tried an atx reset? I was amazed at how many dead laptops just needed this. Take out the battery - make sure it isnt plugged in - hold down the power button for a few seconds - put battery back in/plug in - give it a go.

Then surely PC World need to brush up on their rights.

delllat

ShooterSF wrote: »

Then surely PC World need to brush up on their rights.

its in their best interests to shrug their shoulders and claim warranties are 12 months

that way they can rape you for repair/replacement/ extended warrantys

Cunning Alias

ShooterSF wrote: »

Then surely PC World need to brush up on their rights.

Believe me they know. The problem I see is the 6 year grey area that we have in ireland. A consumer may think that their laptop should last at least 2-4 years while the seller thinks differently. Considering technology always goes for the new fast approach instead of perfecting current technology there are always going to be products that just die.

Things would be much simpler if we went with the clear 2 years or if there were set times for different products (e.g. computers 2 years, tvs 3 etc).

Flaccus

It really isn't a 6 year guarantee in Ireland though. The consumer has the right to make a claim for up to 6 years after the goods were bought by them. That's not the same as a guarantee of 6 years where you can just walk into a shop and look for a repair. You will often have a fight on your hands. And whether it holds up will depend on the judge and many factors, especially whether the judge deems 6 years is a reasonable period of time for the goods to last. It is actually the Supply of Goods and Supply of Services Act which states the reasonable period of time (and all the other stuff about merchantible quality, fit for purposes, repair must be permanent etc..), and it's the Irish Statute of Limitations 1957 that allows for this time to be 6 years. Because of this potential 6 year cover Ireland didn't implement the 2 year cover in the EU directive as others have pointed out.

Here is a comment from the EU regarding implementation of the directive. Specifically part 6 which deals with Time Limits (Article 5(1)).

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=ie


It says
"The seller is liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from the moment of delivery (Article 5(1)). A majority of Member States have transposed this provision literally. Others have chosen to rely on the time limitation that isgenerally applicable in their contract law: Finland (3 years from delivery), Ireland and the UK (six years for both countries). The Netherlands has transposed a two years limitation period starting from the notification of the defect. In the Czech Republic there is a variationdepending on the type of goods being sold (consumer goods – 2 years, foodstuff – 3 weeks, groceries– 8 days), which needs to be clarified. Portuguese law seems to go below the level of protection envisaged by the Directive by providing that an action needs to be brought within 6 months from the moment the consumer notified the defect to the seller"

ch750536

http://stopmoaningaboutireland.blogspot.com/2009/05/warranty-guarantee.html

darkskol

Cunning Alias wrote: »

OP, have you tried an atx reset?.

Yes tried this but no success.
Went back yesterday after consulting the nca. Said to them that it should of lasting more than a year and a bit ie durability and stated the supply of goods act but they just insisted it had a one year manufacturers warranty which was now expired and if I wanted to proceed to go through small claims court

bockedy

darkskol wrote: »

Yes tried this but no success.
Went back yesterday after consulting the nca. Said to them that it should of lasting more than a year and a bit ie durability and stated the supply of goods act but they just insisted it had a one year manufacturers warranty which was now expired and if I wanted to proceed to go through small claims court

They're just trying to discourage you and call your bluff. From what you've said, you will win your case at the small claims court.

Now you've gone through the hassle of being refused face to face (which you need to have done before you can reasonably apply to the small claims court), you should follow through and send a polite but firm letter to the manager of the store. If you can get his or her name, all the better. Mark the letter "Confidential: for personal attention by Manager" on the envelope and send it by registered post. Enclose a photocopy of your receipt and also the details from the service tag on the back of the laptop.

In the letter, say that you were refused your statutory rights in the store (what date you visited, and names of people who served you) and that you are extremely irate at that. Point out what your statutory rights are, namely, that a retailer must sell goods of reasonable durability, and that your contract is with them, not with the manufacturer of the laptop.

Lastly, give them a time limit in which to respond. Two weeks from the date of your letter sounds reasonable to me. Tell them if they do not respond or come to an agreement with you, you will take them to the small claims court (only costs a few euro and can be done online)

Definitely go down the route of threatening the small claims court with them first. They know in that case they will definitely be ruled against from what you say.

foggy_lad

Cunning Alias wrote: »

Believe me they know. The problem I see is the 6 year grey area that we have in ireland. A consumer may think that their laptop should last at least 2-4 years while the seller thinks differently. Considering technology always goes for the new fast approach instead of perfecting current technology there are always going to be products that just die.

Things would be much simpler if we went with the clear 2 years or if there were set times for different products (e.g. computers 2 years, tvs 3 etc).

i would expect a laptop to last up to 5 years and a pc or tv should last 6-8 or even 10 years

darkskol wrote: »

Yes tried this but no success.
Went back yesterday after consulting the nca. Said to them that it should of lasting more than a year and a bit ie durability and stated the supply of goods act but they just insisted it had a one year manufacturers warranty which was now expired and if I wanted to proceed to go through small claims court

just write a letter to the store explaining your rights to seek a remedy from them and ask them to repair replace or refund for the laptop or you will have no choice but go to the small claims court, then after posting off the letter go get the forms from your local court office(also available online)

this store are really acting like gaumless thugs insisting on depriving customers of their statutory rights! is there nothing that can be done to have these dodgey shops shut down?

mankyfecker

Ring HP Customer Care and state your case, if you mention the Law they will most likely do it for you, and in my experience you are far more likely to get them to accomadate you.

Do you mind me asking what model it is (e.g. 530, 6735 etc.)?

Slippin Jimmy

darkskol wrote: »

Thanks for the replies so far.

So maybe my best bet would be first to go back the the place I bought it and argue durability that a laptop would be expected to last longer than 15 months. Also when I was there they kept saying that I had to go through HP and not them, would I be right in assuming that my contract would be with the shop and not actually the manufacturer?

Expectations and realisations often differ. Yeah your contract is with the shop and not the manufacturer. But seen as its gone over the year and that is the only gurantee offered you no longer have a contract.

slimjimmc

Duffff-Man wrote: »

Expectations and realisations often differ. Yeah your contract is with the shop and not the manufacturer. But seen as its gone over the year and that is the only gurantee offered you no longer have a contract.

I don't think that 1.5 years is reasonable expectation for a laptop. I believe the OP has a case and the contract with the shop still stands.

A guarantee does not take priority over consumer law.

Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980:

(3) Goods are of merchantable quality if they are as fit for the purpose or purposes for which goods of that kind are commonly bought and as durable as it is reasonable to expect having regard to any description applied to them, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances, and any reference in this Act to unmerchantable goods shall be construed accordingly.

bockedy

Duffff-Man wrote: »

But seen as its gone over the year and that is the only gurantee offered you no longer have a contract.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You do have a contract with the shop. It doesn't "expire" with the expiry of the warranty or guarantee. The shop continues to have a liability to you under the provisions of the legislation to sell goods that are of reasonable durability. You have a very reasonable expectation that any new laptop lasts longer than 1.5 years. You have a clear cut case that you will win in the small claims court, and the shop knows that.

reunion

ok the gaurantee would be right for almost everything, but this is a laptop we are talking about, people tend to think their computer/laptop is broken whenever it stops working, but that is not the case. It nearly always is a software issue like a virus.

IF the hardware they sold is fine and the software is the problem. which would require technical assistance, hence having to pay the fee. IF the hardware is broken from a manufacturing incident or fault then they would have to repair it, however if it is a software issue, i don't think they have to repair it.

wmpdd3

It's been often stated on this forum that there is very little margin on electrical s.

If retailers have to honour warranties from 5 more years worth of customers we will all be paying double the current prices.

I still don't think the op is going to win the small claims case. Yes there is a problem with the laptop. I would be happy with a reduced price repair with a 6mt warranty on the repair.

Has anyone tried this with cars? Plenty things go wrong just after your warrenty has expired.

bockedy

reunion wrote: »

ok the gaurantee would be right for almost everything, but this is a laptop we are talking about, people tend to think their computer/laptop is broken whenever it stops working, but that is not the case. It nearly always is a software issue like a virus.

IF the hardware they sold is fine and the software is the problem. which would require technical assistance, hence having to pay the fee. IF the hardware is broken from a manufacturing incident or fault then they would have to repair it, however if it is a software issue, i don't think they have to repair it.

True, the shop possibly has more wiggle room in the case of a software problem "You shouldn't have deleted your registry/installed that CrappyWarez program, you broke it." But hardware problems are often completely obvious and undeniable, for example: computer doesn't even turn on, doesn't even show the BIOS boot messages etc.

bockedy

wmpdd3 wrote: »

It's been often stated on this forum that there is very little margin on electrical s.

If retailers have to honour warranties from 5 more years worth of customers we will all be paying double the current prices.

I think that's an exaggeration of the situation. But anyway it's hardly a reason for not claiming your rights. As it stands, the obtuseness and stalling by the shops is a drag on the economy. We should be piling the pressure on the shops, and in that way the pressure gets passed back to the suppliers, who are the real villains in the piece for manufacturing crappy products.

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I still don't think the op is going to win the small claims case. Yes there is a problem with the laptop. I would be happy with a reduced price repair with a 6mt warranty on the repair.

The OP might be happy with that outcome, but I strongly suspect a fully free repair can be the judgement of the court.

wmpdd3 wrote: »

Has anyone tried this with cars? Plenty things go wrong just after your warrenty has expired.

The principle is the same in law. The retailer has a duty to sell goods of reasonable durability. I am not an expert on cars and don't know what's reasonable there, but for laptops I know that 1.5 years is not reasonable.

reunion

Different things apply to different items, its not a 2 year gaurantee for everything, like if i buy a litre of milk and it goes off after a month can i return it?

With a car its the amount of times you have used the car before it needs to be serviced, miles, times you turn on the engine etc. Plus the fact that you can easily be in a car crash, and you could take country roads etc, means their is a really high chance of the customer breaking the car, plus you don't know whats wrong with a car UNLESS you take it to a mechanic, so you would still have to take it to a specialist anyway.

Back to the topic of the thread...

An instruction manual for the retailer is updated by the manufacturer depending on the new common faults with the product that they didnt see at the start. PC world have either been told the problem you are having is a software issue, no hardware problem, or that a laptop needs to be seen by technical staff before they can return it.

But first off, i would send the letter with pictures to the manager, its the easiest thing to do and you have proof of the damage under warrenty (also find the manual as well they state the warranty limits of the product). I bought a harddrive from pc world and it broke after a month of using it, so i took it back and they took it back no bother as it was a common problem. Find out what is EXACTLY wrong with the laptop!

So far all i know is it just shut down one day on 50% battery when the charger wasnt in.

Is that it? or will it not turn on anymore? Does it always need to be plugged in?


Like i mean that could have been you hitting the off button by accident...
we need more information, like i wouldn't be an expert, but i would probably be able to tell you if its a software or hardware problem. The more information we have, the more likely we can tell you what the problem is and what exactly your rights are.

I know you are entitled to a windows disc (if its a software issue), so get that from pc world, and try repairing windows and if the problem still occurs, wipe the hard drive then reinstall windows. If the problem still occurs gauranteed hardware problem. But i would wait until we know what the problem is, before you start doing that, (also back up data if you do end up doing that)

reunion

bockedy wrote: »

True, the shop possibly has more wiggle room in the case of a software problem "You shouldn't have deleted your registry/installed that CrappyWarez program, you broke it." But hardware problems are often completely obvious and undeniable, for example: computer doesn't even turn on, doesn't even show the BIOS boot messages etc.

It might be so obvious, but some people don't know what firefox is, i mean this is a laptop, some people don't know that software and hardware are different. Like i said in the last post, we need to know more about what exactly is wrong with the laptop before we tell darksol that he/she should launch a full scale lawsuit again PC world (ok maybe that was exaggerated..)