O'Driscoll should be Captain of the Lions

Size=everything

Yes its only 2 games into the tour but does anyone else feel Brian O'Driscoll should 100% be captain? I know for a fact I am not alone in this thinking as sitting in a pub in Australia fans from Wales, England and Scotland agreed that O'Driscoll should have been captain.

In yesterday's game you could see O'Driscoll being vocal, talking to the players something O'Connell rarely did in the first game. When it came to making the right calls O'Driscoll made them including 2 kicks at goal in the beginning despite Jones objecting (though admitedly from the smirk on O'Driscoll's face light heartedly) now in the end the choice to go for the kicks were meaningless as the Lions trashed Xerox but it was the correct call from an experienced captain who knew that, despite the BI Lions looking to be in a very comfortable position early on, that a game can change in an instance. Now compare that to O'Connell who opted for scrums (and subsequently lost them) when 3 points were on offer. We were lucky that O'Connells decisions didn't cost us that day but they very nearly did. Even in the media O'Driscoll seems to be more adept to deflecting pressure off the team. O'Connell is not Martyn Johnson they may both lead by example but the difference is Johnson could also set aside his emotions and make the right calls.

In O'Driscoll we have a charesmatic, more experienced, cool headed, natural leader who not only leads by example but more importantly very, very rarely makes the wrong call. Whereas O'Connell has in the past gone missing a lot in matches O'Driscoll never does.

Obviously in Ireland opinion differs (possibly because provincial issues I don't know) but from talking to those unaffected from outside our country everyone agrees O'Driscoll should of been captain.

Note :
This is not a knee jerk to the last 2 games (though I have provided examples from them as they are the most recent) but an opinion garnered from watching the two players leading on the pitch from the last few years

thomond2006

Ah here...... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Why discuss something that will never happen?? :mad:

POC is the Lions Captain. End of.

This thread will only turn into Munster-Leinster sh!te.

spank_inferno

This lions squad is full of leaders, full of captains.

What about Alun Whyn Jones (sp?). After BOD went off he was captain and was very vocal leading from the front in an all round very impressive performance.

Yes BOD is a great leader, but I think the "who is better than who" talk isnt necessary.... because I doubt the guys over there worry about it either.

JJ

As POC said before the squad was picked, he was more concerned with having a successful Lions tour than being captain. I think the same would go for all the Lions players.

ch2008

Size=everything wrote: »

I know for a fact I am not alone in this thinking as sitting in a pub in Australia fans from Wales, England and Scotland agreed that O'Driscoll should have been captain.

There you go then, decision made!

Stealdo

I think this is silly talk to be honest. They're both leaders, granted with different styles. I'd have had issue with POC captaincy for Ireland before in games that BOD missed, but they'll be on the pitch together come the tests. Most likely with AWJ and one or two others as well. O'Connell had a far tougher spot to deal with on Saturday than BOD did last night in a myriad of ways (not just what was happening on the score board). It's very easy to criticise decisions that have already been made because you'll never ever know what the alternative outcome was. POC was playing with a group of guys who largely hadn't had a game for over 3 weeks. It may well have been a concious decision to not get on guys who were showing a bit of rustiness or nerves and to allow them to come through the game in their own way come what may. Who knows what would have happened had he been more vocal, it may just as easily have piled the pressure on guys like Earls and caused further issues off the pitch. None of us have the insight into the factors that leads to these decisions.

mikedragon32

Nonsense thread.

Unless POC gets injured, there's no way Geech will change his mind. It would be really bad form to change captaincy mid tour for any other reason.

You might not have liked the decision to select POC as captain (I wasn't overly impressed by it), but it's done now so we should all get in behind him and cheer on the Lions.

ch2008

Stealdo wrote: »

None of us have the insight into the factors that leads to these decisions.

Well put. After that Ireland documentary featuring POC "fear of god" speech vs. Drico's eh, more restrained gentlemanly like approach, most of us couldn't understand why POC wasnt the captain. The point is that both POC and BOD bring qualities that none of us will ever be privy too so to second guess who is the better captain is pointless. The important elements that make a great captain are the ones that aren't so apparent on the TV screen. Shouting/talking is fairly low on the list of criteria I'd imagine

subfreq

Well they are both going to play in the same test team so it's all academic really. BOD will still lead as vocally in the test team.

I am delighted he is not captain. He doesn't have to deal with all media and responsibilities and can enjoy his rugby. I thought he looked very relaxed last night.

Kingdom

Just in relation to the op, and the reference to scrums instead of kicks at the post, is it possible that the management referred to this prior to the game, for the forwards to get some competitive scrummaging practice? Just throwing it out there!

NickNolte

As has already been said, it's a pointless thread. It's easy to say that BOD should be captain when he's having the season of his life and he's more of a 'superstar' to the other players than POC but POC is a solid leader. It's just a figurehead position on the Lions tour and the Lions have been traditionally led better from up front anyway. Besides, POC is a gent, a talisman and a great spokesman for the Lions in South Africa. Captaincy or no captaincy, BOD will make his mark in South Africa.

I still think BOD is the only captain for Ireland though.

anonymous_joe

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ah here...... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Why discuss something that will never happen?? :mad:

POC is the Lions Captain. End of.

This thread will only turn into Munster-Leinster sh!te.

I have to agree with Thomond.

(Something's wrong here. )

I'm a Leinster fan, (obviously :pac:) and while I know who I'd have picked as captain, I also know that if you were to take the captaincy from O'Connell, it would be a huge slap in the face for him, and one that's not deserved.

He has been given the captaincy, and having watched him play for years, I know he will do his utmost to excel. If he is not the best captain available then the coaching team should be censured, but right now, it's more important that the set up gets behind him.

Also, as a Leinster fan, having Leo Cullen as captain with O'Driscoll behind him (and Whitaker) to organise people, to motivate them and to keep them aware has had a great effect on the team. The Lions will probably have O'Driscoll and O'Connell starting, so you'll have the best of both worlds.

bleg

bring johnson out of retirement and make him captain

anonymous_joe

bleg wrote: »

bring johnson out of retirement and make him captain

He'd probably jump to escape the disaster that he's made his current job into.

Stev_o

Shane Williams for captaincy because 30 year olds with V hair cuts are just bursting with leadership qualities.

Stealdo

Stev_o wrote: »

Shane Williams for captaincy because 30 year old hobbits who can't defend with V hair cuts are just bursting with leadership qualities.

sorted

premierstone

Just when you think you've seen the most ret*rded thread ever all you have to do is come on here and sure enough there will be an even more ret*rded one :rolleyes: :mad:

Chucky the tree

Whatever about the rest of it I'd be very suprised if Jones turned down the kick at the posts. I'd of thought he would of happily taken some early easy chances at goal to be able to slot them over.

aya14

Op couldn't you at least have waited til/if the Lions feel to stir sh!t??
This thread is totally pointless.
Ps. does anybody think S.Given should captain the soccer team instead of R.Keane?:rolleyes:

Stealdo

premierstone wrote: »

Just when you think you've seen the most ret*rded thread ever all you have to do is come on here and sure enough there will be an even more ret*rded one :rolleyes: :mad:

I assume you've seen the 'which lion would you like to share a room with thread'?

In fairness to the OP here I don't think they're suggesting that a change is made, that's some other's interpretations. In my opinion it's a pretty valid discussion as to whether people think the right choice was made, if it's a little early.

ch2008

Not a fan of this thread. (it should have been drico!!!)

bigbadben

ch2008 wrote: »

Not a fan of this thread. (it should have been drico!!!)

Couldn't be after last time, enough pressure on him already.

When was the last time a back captained a winning tour?

techdiver

bigbadben wrote: »

When was the last time a back captained a winning tour?

Is that a question or a point?

danthefan

bigbadben wrote: »

Couldn't be after last time, enough pressure on him already.

When was the last time a back captained a winning tour?

What would that prove exactly? Lions lose far more often than they win.

premierstone

The reality is with the majority of teams, and especially with something like the lions, there are a few ''captains'' so to speak but that you have one official captain. Off the field then is where you have one captain i.e. press conferences interviews etc. but on the filed you have the likes of POC, ROG, BOD, Jones etc who all play a captains role to a certain extent, i think people are getting far too worked up over it and as regards the distinction between a forward or a back I really dont see any reason why it should be one over the other.

[Jackass]

There's not a hope of it being changed, that would be rediculos, but for my money Brian O'Driscoll is by far the best captain on tour. Paul O'Connell isn't even in the same league as a leader and captain.

thomond2006

Lads, POC will beat the Bok. :pac:

mackerooney

premierstone wrote: »

The reality is with the majority of teams, and especially with something like the lions, there are a few ''captains'' so to speak but that you have one official captain. Off the field then is where you have one captain i.e. press conferences interviews etc. but on the filed you have the likes of POC, ROG, BOD, Jones etc who all play a captains role to a certain extent, i think people are getting far too worked up over it and as regards the distinction between a forward or a back I really dont see any reason why it should be one over the other.

I think you are missing the point - by making O'Connell captain he has to be selected for the test team. This might prove to be an expensive mistake given his capacity to slow down the ball through his inability to pass out of a tackle. Works for Munster but not suited to the game in SA.

Trojan

I think POC may have difficulty making the Test team, which makes his position very tenuous, to say the least.

bleg

lads, make me captain!

i'll make sure to talk to each of the players individually at some stage during the match whether the whistle is gone or not. i'll also make sure to give them a little pat on the bum as they run away. flawless!

thehighground

mackerooney wrote: »

I think you are missing the point - by making O'Connell captain he has to be selected for the test team. This might prove to be an expensive mistake given his capacity to slow down the ball through his inability to pass out of a tackle. Works for Munster but not suited to the game in SA.

This is a rubbish thread. I can't think of anyone who would make the perfect captain - everyone is human.

POC is still the outstanding candidate for starting Lock based on his ability, his (& DOCs) record in the 6Ns. Even recent meetings with AW Jones, POC & DOC destroyed the Os lineout. I personally thought that the Locks the other night looked like excellent prospects as ruck inspectors.

BOD is very prone to injury - the Lions management are going to wrap him in cotton wool - hopefully he will start (and finish) the 3 Tests in one piece.

As a matter of interest - what do people think of Leo Cullen being Leinster captain instead of BOD? Does Leinster suffer because BOD isn't captain?

anonymous_joe

Trojan wrote: »

I think POC may have difficulty making the Test team, which makes his position very tenuous, to say the least.

Ah that's a bit unfair.

He's probably going to be outclassed by Matfield and Botha (through no fault of his own, those are unreal) and that could put him under a lot of pressure, and turn this into a silly silly crisis prompted by moaning in the media.

That's a loose prediction, and one I hope is wrong.

thehighground wrote: »

This is a rubbish thread. I can't think of anyone who would make the perfect captain - everyone is human.

POC is still the outstanding candidate for starting Lock based on his ability, his (& DOCs) record in the 6Ns. Even recent meetings with AW Jones, POC & DOC destroyed the Os lineout. I personally thought that the Locks the other night looked like excellent prospects as ruck inspectors.

BOD is very prone to injury - the Lions management are going to wrap him in cotton wool - hopefully he will start (and finish) the 3 Tests in one piece.

As a matter of interest - what do people think of Leo Cullen being Leinster captain instead of BOD? Does Leinster suffer because BOD isn't captain?

I think Leinster have had three captains this season (not literally, figuratively) in Cullen, Whitaker and O'Driscoll.

I think that degree of leadership, in crucial areas of the team has been massivel beneficial.

The one criticism of O'Connell's style of captaining is that he tends to lead from the front physically rather than mentally. (I.e. leap before looking.) I think an example would be seeking a physical confrontation against the Royal XV up front and that backfiring wildly and giving even more momentum to their opponents.

Some might say you'd like a calmer head to stop and think.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I think Leinster have had three captains this season (not literally, figuratively) in Cullen, Whitaker and O'Driscoll.

I think that degree of leadership, in crucial areas of the team has been massivel beneficial.

What is your point here then - it doesn't really matter who is called captain?

The one criticism of O'Connell's style of captaining is that he tends to lead from the front physically rather than mentally. (I.e. leap before looking.) I think an example would be seeking a physical confrontation against the Royal XV up front and that backfiring wildly and giving even more momentum to their opponents.

Some might say you'd like a calmer head to stop and think.

From SA accounts of the Royal XV they seem to have a bit of the 'Munster dog' about them and unlikely to take anyone's reputation into account. And I don't know if you noticed, but the Lions backs handling in the backs took a little while to settle down.

I'm not too sure what you mean by physically taking on the Royals XV backfiring. Did the Lions have any other options? So, most of the Lions were having difficulty competing at altitude - was that not expected anyway?

Even Stuart Barnes prior to the games, said that the Golden Lions locks were not really up to much and so nothing too much should be read into it. Despite that, the B+I Lions lost two of their own throws despite having the better hooker in Meers.

btw, POC won all 10 of his LOs when playing against the Royals.

You ignored the point about BOD's injury record. Do you not think that would be a difficulty for his team mates who are not used to playing with him?

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

What is your point here then - it doesn't really matter who is called captain?

Not entirely, no. What I'm getting at is that I see a lot of value in having more than captain on the pitch at one time. I don't mean 'leadership' as some tenuous made up quality we attribute to players we like.

I mean with someone like Paul O'Connell, Chris Whitaker, Leo Cullen or Brian O'Driscoll you can see them organising their team, encouraging/remonstrating, etc. The whole gamut of captainly tasks. The more people you have doing that, the less weight rests on one man's shoulders.

Look at it this way - this year is the first year Leinster have had two main weapons, in O'Driscoll and their backrow, spearheaded by Elsom. They won the Heineken Cup.

Munster have always had a tough pack which up until the last season or two was their way of playing. They used the pack and Ronan O'Gara, and those two weapons were what made them such a pain to play.

If Paul O'Connell gets injured (because you're worried about the impact of an O'Driscoll injury) it'd be better to have a number of captains spread around. That way the team won't suffer as much.

From SA accounts of the Royal XV they seem to have a bit of the 'Munster dog' about them and unlikely to take anyone's reputation into account. And I don't know if you noticed, but the Lions backs handling in the backs took a little while to settle down.

I'm not too sure what you mean by physically taking on the Royals XV backfiring. Did the Lions have any other options? So, most of the Lions were having difficulty competing at altitude - was that not expected anyway?

I noticed, check out the Keith Earls thread. I defended him as being nervous not shíte. The backs in general took a long time to bed down, and all looked a little poor that game, with the exceptions of Bowe, Flutey and Lee Byrne I thought. And O'Gara actuall.

Even Stuart Barnes prior to the games, said that the Golden Lions locks were not really up to much and so nothing too much should be read into it. Despite that, the B+I Lions lost two of their own throws despite having the better hooker in Meers.

btw, POC won all 10 of his LOs when playing against the Royals.

O'Connell in good at lineouts shocker.

He's part of the second-best lock pairing in the world. That's not an accident. Ireland will be lucky to see someone as good as him soon.

You ignored the point about BOD's injury record. Do you not think that would be a difficulty for his team mates who are not used to playing with him?

I'm not sure what you want me to say? O'Driscoll has a habit of putting his team ahead of his own body. He's the bravest player I've ever seen, and would presumably be an inspiration for those around him.

Guys like Flutey and Roberts have mentioned how much they're looking forward to playing with him, he's the best all around 13 in the world, defensively supreme, and still mercurial in attack.

danthefan

I think the game tomorrow is important for POC. Just in terms of appearance it's not good if he captains the Lions to another poor performance while BOD midweek took the team on a 10 try romp.

Stev_o

Im waiting for the conspiracy "This isn't fair POC is being asked to captain the worst selections for the Lions so far and BOD the best"

It's a weak team he's leading but the fact is only someone like him could captain it and make things happen (hopefully). Stupid thread btw.

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

I think the game tomorrow is important for POC. Just in terms of appearance it's not good if he captains the Lions to another poor performance while BOD midweek took the team on a 10 try romp.

Are you not old enough to remember that BOD captained the Lions in NZ in 2005 to a midweek loss against the Maori (captained by Rua Tipoki) and the sky didn't fall in? It was a good team as well that he captained.

The point is, you learn more from games like today than you do from 10 try romps. Remember Ireland v. Canada. Good blowout the cowebs, but not much use when the going got a bit tough the following week.

You need to know who does what when the going gets tough.

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

Are you not old enough to remember that BOD captained the Lions in NZ in 2005 to a midweek loss against the Maori (captained by Rua Tipoki) and the sky didn't fall in? It was a good team as well that he captained.

Yeah, and tour turned out so well.....

thehighground

thehighground wrote: »

Are you not old enough to remember that BOD captained the Lions in NZ in 2005 to a midweek loss against the Maori (captained by Rua Tipoki) and the sky didn't fall in? It was a good team as well that he captained.

The point is, you learn more from games like today than you do from 10 try romps. Remember Ireland v. Canada. Good blowout the cowebs, but not much use when the going got a bit tough the following week.

You need to know who does what when the going gets tough.

Edit: Captain was Jono Gibbes not Rua Tipoki.

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

Are you not old enough to remember that BOD captained the Lions in NZ in 2005 to a midweek loss against the Maori (captained by Rua Tipoki) and the sky didn't fall in? It was a good team as well that he captained.

The point is, you learn more from games like today than you do from 10 try romps. Remember Ireland v. Canada. Good blowout the cowebs, but not much use when the going got a bit tough the following week.

You need to know who does what when the going gets tough.

Yes, 2005, that pinnacle of sporting achievement for the Lions.

NickNolte

Stev_o wrote: »

It's a weak team he's leading but the fact is only someone like him could captain it and make things happen (hopefully). Stupid thread btw.

Jesus... you know your rugby :rolleyes: How is a team comprised from a squad containing Tommy Bowe, Lee Byrne, Gordon D'Arcy, Keith Earls, Stephen Ferris, Luke Fitzgerald, Riki Flutey, Jamie Heaslip, Alun Wyn Jones, Stephen Jones, Ugo Monye, Brian O'Driscoll, Ronan O'Gara, Jamie Roberts, Martyn Williams, Joe Worsley, etc, etc. a weak team?

And you're saying that if this squad have some success, it's solely because of O'Connell? The two matches he's captained so far nearly turned out to be two serious humiliations. The one that BOD captained was a rout.

Either you're being biased or you're clueless. FWIW, I want POC to captain the Lions but don't just defend him blindly by making silly, ill-informed statements.

thomond2006

Jesus Christ, will ye leave provincial rivalry out of it and get behind Paul O' Connell and his team.

Brian O' Driscoll is as important to the test team as O'Connell, however POC is the captain. End of. If BOD can put up and shut up, so can ye.

Some of you are worse than Francis or Stephen Jones.

Stev_o

NickNolte wrote: »

Jesus... you know your rugby :rolleyes: How is a team comprised from a squad containing Tommy Bowe, Lee Byrne, Gordon D'Arcy, Keith Earls, Stephen Ferris, Luke Fitzgerald, Riki Flutey, Jamie Heaslip, Alun Wyn Jones, Stephen Jones, Ugo Monye, Brian O'Driscoll, Ronan O'Gara, Jamie Roberts, Martyn Williams, Joe Worsley, etc, etc. a weak team?

And you're saying that if this squad have some success, it's solely because of O'Connell? The two matches he's captained so far nearly turned out to be two serious humiliations. The one that BOD captained was a rout.

Either you're being biased or you're clueless. FWIW, I want POC to captain the Lions but don't just defend him blindly by making silly, ill-informed statements.

My god some people need to wake up.

I said team not squad, the team that went out yesterday was weak and lead by POC.

NickNolte

thomond2006 wrote: »

Jesus Christ, will ye leave provincial rivalry out of it and get behind Paul O' Connell and his team.

Who's bringing provincial anything into it? It's a debate about whether BOD or POC should be captain. It has nothing to do with Leinster vs Munster. Unfortunately, people will get defensive when they call POC's captaincy into question and others, like you, will accuse people of spurring on inter-provincial rivalry. Some of us though just want to discuss rugby in a learned, reasoned manner. When some folk come on and say stuff like "the Lions are weak... if they win it'll be solely down to POC" then they deserve to be told to pipe down.

At any rate, it's too early to say yet. Let's watch the rest of the tour and see how things go.

Stev_o

NickNolte wrote: »

Who's bringing provincial anything into it? It's a debate about whether BOD or POC should be captain. It has nothing to do with Leinster vs Munster. Unfortunately, people will get defensive when they call POC's captaincy into question and others, like you, will accuse people of spurring on inter-provincial rivalry. Some of us though just want to discuss rugby in a learned, reasoned manner. When some folk come on and say stuff like "the Lions are weak... if they win it'll be solely down to POC" then they deserve to be told to pipe down.

At any rate, it's too early to say yet. Let's watch the rest of the tour and see how things go.

Nick read my post again you interpreted it the completely wrong way.

copacetic

NickNolte wrote: »

Some of us though just want to discuss rugby in a learned, reasoned manner.

you are kidding right? You do know that you just posted this?

NickNolte wrote: »

And you're saying that if this squad have some success, it's solely because of O'Connell? The two matches he's captained so far nearly turned out to be two serious humiliations. The one that BOD captained was a rout.

NickNolte

Stev_o wrote: »

My god some people need to wake up.

I said team not squad, the team that went out yesterday was weak and lead by POC.

You said "it's a weak team he's leading" and then "the fact is only someone like him could captain it and make things happen (hopefully)" - 'hopefully' suggesting to me that you're looking forward and not talking about yesterdays match.

At any rate, yesterday's team was fairly weak and POC will have a stronger side to captain on Saturday week. Let's reserve any kind of judgement until then.

thomond2006

NickNolte wrote: »

Who's bringing provincial anything into it? It's a debate about whether BOD or POC should be captain. It has nothing to do with Leinster vs Munster. Unfortunately, people will get defensive when they call POC's captaincy into question and others, like you, will accuse people of spurring on inter-provincial rivalry. Some of us though just want to discuss rugby in a learned, reasoned manner. When some folk come on and say stuff like "the Lions are weak... if they win it'll be solely down to POC" then they deserve to be told to pipe down.

At any rate, it's too early to say yet. Let's watch the rest of the tour and see how things go.

OK, fair enough.

Your last point is valid imo.

NickNolte

copacetic wrote: »

you are kidding right? You do know that you just posted this?

Can you elaborate? And try and keep what I said in the context I said it in. I'm assuming you've been reading the thread, right?

Stev_o

NickNolte wrote: »

You said "it's a weak team he's leading" and then "the fact is only someone like him could captain it and make things happen (hopefully)" - 'hopefully' suggesting to me that you're looking forward and not talking about yesterdays match.

At any rate, yesterday's team was fairly weak and POC will have a stronger side to captain on Saturday week. Let's reserve any kind of judgement until then.

Nick stop trying to put words in my mouth i know what i posted and what it meant not you.

I posted on the 5th comparing the 3 teams that have thus played and so far POC has been captain of the two weaker sides while BOD has been the strongest.

I felt that POC would hopefully have a good effect on the bunch of players playing around him in those two matches as they were either young inexperienced or not terribly good.

NickNolte

Stev_o wrote: »

Nick stop trying to put words in my mouth

I just quoted you.

Stev_o wrote: »

i know what i posted and what it meant not you.

I interpreted what you said literally. You're the one backtracking.