Probation Extended

Anna23

My probation has been extended by 3 months, i dont have a problem with that, though my issue is the fact that i was only told about that a month and a half later.....during the 7 month previous to me finding out about it...no one and i mean no one has told me that there are problems, there are no performance managment systems in place, my boss just quit about 2 weeks ago, i had to make a complain against 2 people who bully and harass me in work by email as they are about 10.000 miles away, i have a copy of all their emails, and the worst thing is they are the ones who basically did my review, not my boss as she was only new and she had no say in it. The same exact thing happened to another person in work. I will find out at the end of June what the result is, but until then i have no one to contact with regards to this issue, i have no actual boss in the office. The more i try to avoid "the bullies" the more they get annoyed and come up with things about me not doing even though i have proof that i am doing everything i am supposed to be doing, also they pick on the fact that i do not communicate with them, how can i communicate with them when i try to avoid them due to the fact that they are very intimidating and always looking for an argument with me. Now i hate being walked all over, and i kept my mouth shut, but i feel that they are just looking for any excuse to get rid of me, as their jobs well about 80% of their jobs have been transfered to Ireland, and they might be loosing their jobs.

I have no idea what else to do with regards to this, and i know for a fact that it will take me a while to find another job, even though i have been looking for a while now.

Thanks

dade

Anna to my knowledge it is illegal to extend probation after the fact. if your probation was 6 months and they did not inform you up to that final day then you are considered a full time employee. they can not retrospectively extend it.

also your direct manager should have done a review not these individuals. if your manager was not in the position long enough then IMO his/her Superior should have done it.

do you have a HR department you can address these issues with? if it is a small company can you approach the owner?

in relation to the twats bullying you document everything. don't just rely on emails you have in your in box, they have been known to vanish from mail servers every now and again so print them out. so print everything and have a folder of everything documented in chronological order.

you should not avoid communicating with people as this could be seen as you avoiding your duties. they may be annoying or even harassing you. simple write what is needed, nothing more nothing less and email it. if they come back to you saying it's incomplete but you feel that you have fulfilled all request. then document same and email back stating your requirements were X, Y & Z. i have completed this, if you have further requirements no problem what are they.

Anna23

Well, the HR department is in another country we do not have a HR department here, and i made a complaint to their manager and the director of the company in Ireland but havent heard back yet. I am on the tip of my toes, as i dont know if i will have a job at the end of the month, and it was not fare as no one told me anything...i was made to sign the porbation that i didnt agree with it and i clearly stated that i am only signing it as i was advised to and it was signed only in may and also sent an email with everything that i didnt agree in my review which i though was done incorrectly. i was even more disgusted when they told me a month and a half later that they are extending it due to my communication and that i dont
know the job 2 well, reason being no training provided, they dont even answer my calls, they want all by email to have it in written, they want to incrimintate me not help develope me, ( i also have it in written from my previous boss to stop dealing with them) which was sent to the directors after the boss departed from our company.

dade

ok couple of things. doesn't matter if the HR department is in another country they must uphold the laws of the countries they operate in. so your HR company abroad must uphold Irish legislation for those operating in Ireland.

I assume you made a formal complaint to the HR department? if you have and they have failed to acknowledge then write to them again asking them for an update on your compliant ie. you sent the complaint and assumed they looked into it and want an update. if they claim not to have received it then forward your original complaint to them to prove it was sent in. if you sent it to your manager that left then inform them of this and state that you would have assumed your manager would have addressed the matter with them prior to leaving. either way you made a complaint through the proper channels and would like a follow up.

In relating to the probation. who made you sign it? did a member of HR make you sign it? what date did you put on it? coz if the date is after the 6 month mark they are wrong. if a member of HR made you sign it then address the fact with the HR manager that you were put under pressure and that it was outside your probation period

Also as a note, never sign anything you are not comfortable with no matter what it is. don't even make a comment like I'm doing this under duress unless you actually write that beside your signature. you can inform them that you acknowledge the existence of some document but that you will not sign it.

To be fair i can understand them saying the extension is based upon your lack of communication, you admitted yourself that you avoid communicating with them. this can only look bad ion your part. I'm having trouble in work, i sit in a room and with 7 other people. before all the trouble i was sin i was involved in all the banter, now I'm not. so i communicate via email about everything. nothing gets done unless it's written down. i eat alone (poor me i know) and pass my day knowing that something better will eventually turn up (come on my 6 numbers)

they are asking you to write it down not to incriminate you but to protect themselves. its is possible that HR are aware of the behaviour and may even condone it and want to appear faultless. so play them at their own game. if someone leaves a voice mail, do not phone pack. email and in it state "in response to your voice mail left at X time......" and so on. as a wise man once said it it wasn't written down it never happened.

writing to your old boss asking them to stop dealing with the company is a big no no. seriously what did you hope to achieve? it only makes you look childish and may actually be a dismiss-able offence. i mean it could cause the company to loose business and could be considered gross misconduct.

you need to keep your nose clean and make sure there is nothing that can be thrown at you. do your job no more no less. if they make a request and it is (purposefully) unclear then ask for clarification, get them to clearly specify their requirements. in my job (IT) i get requests like I need a PC with all the usual. so i respond and ask what software they need explaining that we have different specs for different departments. i also got a request from my manager to write a program to do X, Y, Z and stuff. i joke not it actually said and stuff so i sent it back asking what he meant by and stuff. he shut the request down and opened it again clearly stating what he wanted and that's what he got.

RangeR

dade wrote: »

writing to your old boss asking them to stop dealing with the company is a big no no. seriously what did you hope to achieve? it only makes you look childish and may actually be a dismiss-able offence. i mean it could cause the company to loose business and could be considered gross misconduct.

I am agreeing with everything you said in this post but I think you mis read what Anna said. I took from her post that HER boss told HER to stop dealing with the trouble makers.

i also have it in written from my previous boss to stop dealing with them

Anna23

I did not write to my boss, sorry i need to clarify things, my boss said to me not to get them involved in any communication and to avoid them, i didnt request anything, sorry for hte confusion. I made a complain to their boss who is the overall boss and then to the top manager in Ireland and he said he basically knows how things are. I am at a stage where if i say anything they jump on me saying i am presuming and i am not presuming anything its a question, but they presume i presume, if that makes sens. I did not make a formal complain to HR because i have to follow a certain path for complaints, i dont know what happened with it, it was only submitted at the end of MAY, I BELIEVE THE 26, so thats the date they have on it. which is two months past my probation date. I was advised to put it in writing and send an email with what i dont agree about my probation, thats what happened to everyone who got their probation extended, one person got let go came to work one day and the next he wasnt there anymore and this was after his probation and to top things up he wasnt even told if he were made permanent or not.

I was asked to sign it by my boss at the time, she was still here, so she said to me....just sign it even if you dont agree but sent it to "her boss" with the issues that you are having. this is basically a battel for them to keep their jobs, and by showing that there is no need for me and that i am incompetent and i cannot do the job to the same standard that they do...put it this way i was sent an email which basically was taken out of a dictionary and she tried to be smart by explaining what a word meant, i was in complete shock when i saw it....i mean...i know what quality means, i dont need a dictionary explaining this to me. thats how pathetic it got!

And if i reply to their email they become really annoyed with me, and agggressive. Its like how dare I question them.

Nody

Sorry but you appear to be mixing up several things here.

1) When where you told your probation would be extended?

2) The complaint, was the complaint about your probation being extended or about the behaviour of the work collegues? Those are two different things.

3) How come said two collegues are involved in daily work if you are not suppose to have any contact with them?

Anna23

ok I was meant to be made permanent on the 5th of march, butonly found out about my probation being extended a month and a half later from my boss, which was leaving and handed in her notice at that time and she didnt care.

the complain was made about the attitude of the two co workers and it was made because my probation was extended without a proper valid reason and without actually going though the proper training procedures, and if i show you my probation letter you will laugh, a friend of mine is a HR director and he said it looks like a school report.

basically we have taken 80% of their job and it has been transferred to me and i am meant to get trained in this but it never really happened, they always try to answer queries on my behalf saying i cant do them obviously i cant when they get to them first and i am sitting reading a answer. I dont know if that answerd your question.

dade

my bad i did misread that bit. well your old boss may be incorrect. if there is a requirement for you to continue communicating with these people them you must do that.

dade

Anna23 wrote: »

I did not write to my boss, sorry i need to clarify things, my boss said to me not to get them involved in any communication and to avoid them, .

i assume that's the boss that left right? have you got that in writing from your boss?

Anna23 wrote: »

I made a complain to their boss who is the overall boss and then to the top manager in Ireland and he said he basically knows how things are.

did you mention it to anyone else at this point? i mean you made a complaint and he brushed you off. again do you have this complaint in writing.

Anna23 wrote: »

I am at a stage where if i say anything they jump on me saying i am presuming and i am not presuming anything its a question, but they presume i presume, if that makes sens.

my answer to any of these type of mails would be to state that you are seeking clarification on something (if that is the case) and could they please respond in a professional manner, and if they are incapable that you have no problem refereeing all matters to their direct superior from that point forward.

Anna23 wrote: »

I did not make a formal complain to HR because i have to follow a certain path for complaints,

you're right you're suppose to go to your boss, but at any time you can also refer any matter you feel is serious enough directly to HR and bypass your boss. going to your boss is considered good practise and tries to solve matters before they become Formal, sort of dealing with it at a local level. once HR are involved there's no turning back.

Anna23 wrote: »

i dont know what happened with it, it was only submitted at the end of MAY, I BELIEVE THE 26, so thats the date they have on it.

and this was made to your manager, was it in writing? if so forward that directly to HR and ask form an update,. your manager should have referred the matter to HR when she left.

Anna23 wrote: »

which is two months past my probation date. I was advised to put it in writing and send an email with what i dont agree about my probation, thats what happened to everyone who got their probation extended,

so up to the time you complained about behaviour in the office there was no word of a probation extension? your probation had passed etc successfully? ie no issues with your boss to that point where they had words with you? if not then it is safe to assume you have passed your probation and legally it can not be back dated retrospectively.

Anna23 wrote: »

I was asked to sign it by my boss at the time, she was still here, so she said to me....just sign it even if you dont agree

they were wrong. if you sign it unless you add a sub note to it stating that you are signing it under duress then you are considered to have agreed to it. did you make any notes on it or did you just sign it?

Anna23 wrote: »

but sent it to "her boss" with the issues that you are having.

ok so you think your immediate boss sent your complaint up the chain to someone more senior right?

Anna23 wrote: »

this is basically a Battle for them to keep their jobs,

battle for who your boss or the two bints that you're dealing with?

Anna23 wrote: »

and by showing that there is no need for me and that i am incompetent and i cannot do the job to the same standard that they do...

LOL typical practises of people trying to save their skin

Anna23 wrote: »

put it this way i was sent an email which basically was taken out of a dictionary and she tried to be smart by explaining what a word meant, i was in complete shock when i saw it....i mean...i know what quality means, i dont need a dictionary explaining this to me. thats how pathetic it got!

could be seen as a form of bullying, print that mail out

Anna23 wrote: »

And if i reply to their email they become really annoyed with me, and agggressive. Its like how dare I question them.

if you have a need to question them then keep questioning them. if they are suppose to have provided you with training and have not can you show where you tried to arrange it and they didn't provide it?

dade

Anna23 wrote: »

ok I was meant to be made permanent on the 5th of march, but only found out about my probation being extended a month and a half later from my boss, which was leaving and handed in her notice at that time and she didn't care.

like i said earlier, that is illegal. once you go a day beyond your probation you are permanent.

Anna23 wrote: »

the complain was made about the attitude of the two co workers and it was made because my probation was extended without a proper valid reason and without actually going though the proper training procedures, and if i show you my probation letter you will laugh, a friend of mine is a HR director and he said it looks like a school report.

that's two issues.
1 the co workers attitudes
2 the probation extension

did you lodge two separate complaints or just one and raise both issues as part of that complaint.

also just coz someone writes like a kid and isn't eloquent doesn't make the review less valid. once the reasons are valid it shouldn't matter how it is sent. but obviously all should try remain professional at all times.

Anna23 wrote: »

basically we have taken 80% of their job and it has been transferred to me and i am meant to get trained in this but it never really happened, they always try to answer queries on my behalf saying i cant do them obviously i cant when they get to them first and i am sitting reading a answer. I don't know if that answered your question.

common practise when trying to protect your turf. have you got anything in writing showing that they should provide training to you? also is there anything you can use to show they have not done so?

dade

just been thinking some more on this. here's what i think you should do.

write an email to the head of HR. Explain to that person that your probation was due to end on X date and 2 months later your manager came to you with an extension and insisted you sign it. they said they would pass your reservations on. explain that to your knowledge as the initial probation had expired then there can be no extension applied retrospectively. I wouldn't mention it being illegal just yet it may get their back up.

them in the same mail mention the issue with the alleged bullying. explain that the bullying and probation are as far as you are away separate issues. but would like HR to investigate both matters. Also mention the lack of support form these individuals that should have been training you, mention that they have in your opinion tried to undermine you and that they have not always acted with a professional work ethic toward you.

say that you had raised these issues with your previous manager prior to their departure and would like an update from HR on the matter. if HR claim to have never received it then politely forward your initial complaint that you lodged with your manager and ask can they now look into the matter. if they suggest that you take it to your manager simply say that you would prefer if HR handle the situation as it has gone on long enough and needs to be resolved.

don't mention taking any form of legal action unless you have no other choice. Always remain calm in any and all communications, state the facts, clearly and concisely do not embellish or fabricate only say what you can prove, but do not provide proof until asked for it. then give copied of emails etc that you will have printed out but keep originals for your own records.

if HR try brush over the matter without any form of investigation them I'm afraid that it's time to start looking for work some place else. it's not the sort of company that takes complaints seriously and not the sort of place you should work for. also as you are in probation or just past is is it safe to assume you have under 12 months service with them? if so they a lot of the employment law legislations do not apply to you. if you are there over 12 months and HR try brush over it then I'd suggest seeking legal advice. Prior to that make sure you have everything you need, remember printed copies of emails so they cant be mistakenly deleted from the mail servers.

in relation to the bullies, do not converse with them except via email and only answer specific queries no more no less. if they make any snide comments do not retaliate, it will make you look as bad as them. you always want to act from a position of power not weakness. sop if you remain professional it you will look better than someone who is rude and abusive. If you are unclear on something and they are the people you are suppose to ask, then ask for clarification, of they are rude then simply reply asking them to remain professional and then ask the question again in a professional manner. if that doesn't work raise the matter with both your direct superior and their superior. if you have no manager then try address it with some other manager in the office.

one final thing, chin up could be worse you could be dead

Anna23

I have emails where i askd for training it never happened, we have proof where we needed to have a weekly call for training it never happened, for 7 months they didnt pick up the phone just email email email, and then it was raised with their manager by my own boss at the time and we finally managed to get a call set up with them and that means me staying back for an entra hour unpaid but as long as i get trained i dont mind.

I lodged one complain with both issued in it.

Thanks fo ryour help i will send an email but first i need to know if this is being investigated by the line manager.

I am aware that because its under 12 months i dont really have a lot to stand on, and they can basically do whatever they please, thats the reason why i wanted to be quite and not seen as a trouble maker.

With regards to retaliating, i am not really doing that, i am answering their questions, because when they give out to me they also are asking questions and if i dont answer i have been told i am ignoring them and i should at least reply to their email saying i am looking into the matter.

I will wait for the line manager to get back from their business trip and then i will enquire about this if its being dealt with or not.

The funny thing is they had problems before where they made someone else leave and i found out about it.

dade

Anna23 wrote: »

I have emails where i askd for training it never happened, we have proof where we needed to have a weekly call for training it never happened, for 7 months they didnt pick up the phone just email email email, and then it was raised with their manager by my own boss at the time and we finally managed to get a call set up with them and that means me staying back for an entra hour unpaid but as long as i get trained i dont mind.

I would have though that training should have been provided during business hours. but if you are happy with the arrangement that's ok. at least there's a paper trail of them not providing the training and it was escalated to a manager. that could be used to back up your claims that they are saying you are incapable of doing your job. your simple response is "of course i am, these two have not provided me the required training, here's proof"

Anna23 wrote: »

I lodged one complain with both issued in it.

Thanks fo ryour help i will send an email but first i need to know if this is being investigated by the line manager.

did that manager respond to acknowledge receipt of the initial complaint? the reason I'm asking is that this person may be covering for the other two by ignoring your complaint. but if they acknowledged receipt then they should have at least started to look into it by now.

Anna23 wrote: »

I am aware that because its under 12 months i dont really have a lot to stand on, and they can basically do whatever they please, thats the reason why i wanted to be quite and not seen as a trouble maker.

very true especially in todays climate

Anna23 wrote: »

With regards to retaliating, i am not really doing that, i am answering their questions, because when they give out to me they also are asking questions and if i dont answer i have been told i am ignoring them and i should at least reply to their email saying i am looking into the matter.

exactly, respond to questions and queries not to them being idiots. makes you look professional.

Anna23 wrote: »

The funny thing is they had problems before where they made someone else leave and i found out about it.

most bullies don't become one over night, it would be nice of the other person had made a complaint at least then there's prior history and adds strength to your claim.

best of luck with it. hope it all works out

Anna23

The other person had actually mad a complain and they still managed to make her leave, its funny cause they "harassed" me for 3 months to take the job, take the job, we'll give you more money just take the job, you are our main candidate.....I dont regret taking the job, but i wish i had support. If i get fired how long do i have to wait to get the dole as i am more than sure i cant walk into another job straight away.

Afuera

Anna23 wrote: »

If i get fired how long do i have to wait to get the dole as i am more than sure i cant walk into another job straight away.

From what you have described if you get fired I would imagine it would be a clear case of constructive dismissal. I don't know how they expect you to do your job without the training that was promised. Getting you to retrospectively sign an extension to the probation period also sounds very shady.

As already suggested, keep printed copies of the emails. Be persistent that a resolution is found, perhaps sending weekly emails to HR until you are satisfied that the problems have been dealt with adequately.

Does this problem only affect you or are there other team members affected? You can have more clout if you group together and demand action be taken than on your own.

Best of luck.

Anna23

It affected my own boss (who walked out) then another girl here but she has no choice (some work permit needed so she cant leave) and then myself, other ppl here havent even received any feedback or a letter stating they are permanent. it is very shady but it seems that they are getting away with this, the other girl is going to mention this in tomorrows meeting and I will send an email to the manager and have a word with the director tomorrow. they keep saying that they have trained me, but they havent and i have proof they havent. also when i ask questions on how to do things, they will tell me half the answer and expect me to find the rest, but how can i solve the other half when i dont even know what i am dealing with in the first place, had one this morning, where i had to ask a different dept for help as i couldnt really figure out what the issue was, hope that the answer i gave them was correct as if its not they will make a big deal about it.


I just sent an email with something that i dont understand fully i think hell will break loose after they see the email!

Its mad.

By the way I have received a call from a rec agency and they have asked about my ex bosses job if they are looking for anyone else, and i am like why are u calling me wondering about someone else, it was so unusual and i felt so uncomfortable i was telling the girls in work. was that even legal to do that?

Anna23

:pac:To make things even worse i have a 121 performance review with the person i have complained about......isnt life just full of s***e?:D

dade

Anna23 wrote: »

:pac:To make things even worse i have a 121 performance review with the person i have complained about......isnt life just full of s***e?:D

is that person your superior, line manager, supervisor, team leader or anything like that? coz i think it's a bit odd that they would have someone that you have an official complaint in conduct a performance review. it kinda defeats the fairness of it doesn't it.

honestly I think you'd be best out of that place. if managers are aware of behaviour like this and ignore it then they are condoning it by their inaction. if a manager just walks out over similar behaviour and the company do nothing about it then again the company seems not to give a damn and if you stay it will only get worse. it's not worth the agro, work to live not live to work. update you CV and start looking to move for your own peace of mind the place is a hole and wont change any time soon coz management are allowing the behaviour to continue

Anna23

correction sorry "performance improvment plan" thats what it says....sh eisnt my manager well, it doesnt say that in my contract but now that my boss left i wonder if she hasnt taken the role of my line manager....by the way if its a "performance improvment plan" does this mean they will keep me, or basically give me 2 weeks to imporve and then thats it, i get let go, that way they can show they have triend, but to have a performance improvment plan two weeks before my probation runs out is a bit out of place.

dade

has the PIP come form HR? have HR mentioned it at all? has anyone actually mentioned that this person is your new superior? it would be strange for someone that is not your boss to put one of these in place.

to be honesty a PIP is a good sign to me, why give a PIP if they intended releasing you in 2 weeks seems pointless.

Anna23

yeah i know, but maybe its to prove a point, i dont know who my supervisor is i have just sent an email now to find out. it didnt come from HR it come from the person i had made a complin against, but let me get this clear, i didnt use names but everyone knows who i am refering to.

Well I just forund out that the person i have complained against is my new supervisor.....and she is doing the performace improvment plan... is this even suppose to happen, i doubt it that it should and i am amazed that HR hasnt found out yet... i guess on Monday I need to bring it to the HR's attention.