Triathlon tyres

Noangel72

.....I am looking for new tyres......anybody familiar with the Hutchinson Fusion 2 Triathlon?...they come in at eur25!....folding, 127tpi....they seem a good step up from my present average training tyre....

...otherwise it's the Open Corsa...are these really that good?....a bit pricey at eur46....wouldn't mind to spend the money if performance is excellent....my biggest worry with using racing tyres is punctures.....

Thanks

blorg

Most non-crazy light "racing" clinchers are actually pretty good with regard to puncture resistance. To pick one brand, puncture resistance on the Continental GP4000 is about as good as Gatorskins, they are just a more expensive tyre.

I am a big fan of Schwalbe Ultremos, very light (<200g), good road feel and good puncture resistance. Cyclesuperstore have them at 2 for €50 at the moment or alternatively I noticed Joe Daly's have the new "R" version (180g and otherwise improved apparently) for €29 each. To be honest had I known this I would have spent the extra €4/tyre to give them a go.

Open Corsas are meant to be a great tyre certainly, I would consider trying them myself one day. They are expensive. They are around the the 290 TPI range IIRC.

Noangel72

....I've heard of the gp4000 before.....and this morning I have read bad reviews on the open corsa in relation to cuts and puncuters.....I have found a set of gp4000 on chainreactions so I think I will go for them....I was looking for high psi tyres, but I guess I will have to compromise in favour of good puncture protection.......up to what psi have you inflated your gp4000?

Thanks for the tips:)

tunney

anything over 130-140psi on irish roads is counter-productive.

blorg

I go 110 back 100 front for 700x23c tyres. They are rated to 120 PSI but to be honest I would think even that unnecessary. The Ultremos are rated to 145 PSI but inflate them the same (110/100.)

Noangel72

.....my existing tyres are rated 100psi and can push them to 120....so that means that I should be able to inflate the gp4000 as high as 130/140 which should suit me when racing........I've ordered the Gp4000 so I will leave some feedback on them shortly.......:)

niceonetom

Are we talking about tyres for training on for for racing here?

I use Conti GP4000S (the chilli is crucial) and they've been very good to me. I fun them at 115/105 btw. A good balance of grip, wear, weight and puncture resistance.

If I was racing I might go for something lighter and grippier, and just take the chance that I wouldn't puncture. Those open corsas get great review for that purpose, it only seems to be people trying to use them as training tyres on long miles that complain about wear and puncture resistance.

Tunney could probably tell you if there is any point in going super thin for racing. 21? 19?

Noangel72

......I guess you could have a spare set of wheels with Open Corsa on and just use them for racing....I thought about it.....maybe next season!....

Noangel72

......I am not very experienced but I think that, for racing purposes, I would want to go narrow, high pressure and slick...at least on dry and flat roads....if I was climbing/descending, or in wet conditions I would probably want a tyre that is wider, with thread and lower pressure.......correct me if I'm wrong.....

Explosive_Cornflake

I think the whole thread on a bicucle tyre thing is a myth. The tyre is round in a cross section and at high pressure so it won't aquaplane. The tread is just to remove water from the wheels, but on a car that's necessary becuase of the low pressure, bigger contact area with the ground.

blorg

I would not go narrower than 700x23 and don't believe many others do either. There is a slight aero and weight advantage the narrower you go but below 700x23 I believe the negatives (harsher, more prone to pinch flats, less grip) far outweigh these advantages.

I have also read suggestions that going up to crazy pressures (above 120 PSI) is counterproductive as you will lose traction with the road as the bike is jostled about- result although it will all feel very "fast" due to the harsh ride you will actually be slower.

As Explosive Cornflake says there is no need for any tread whatsoever on a bicycle tyre for on road use.

Tunney may have an opinion too, I believe one of the few areas where <700x23 gets any use is in time trials on very smooth roads but even here I am not sure it is that common.

Noangel72

..........I still think high pressure will give you less resistance between ground and tyre and therefore increase speed (however the same principle would make for less stability on wet roads)!.....regarding thread on the tyre I would say this is necessary in wet conditions when cornering, hence why it's mostly on the sidewalls of the tyre....I would agree there's no use fo it at the center.......

short circuit

Noangel72 wrote: »

..........I still think high pressure will give you less resistance between ground and tyre and therefore increase speed (however the same principle would make for less stability on wet roads)!.....regarding thread on the tyre I would say this is necessary in wet conditions when cornering, hence why it's mostly on the sidewalls of the tyre....I would agree there's no use fo it at the center.......

The only way to get more grip regardless of road conditions is to lay more rubber down. So without tread is best for bikes - wet or dry. Lower pressures will also help with this.

Secondly, the only way to maintain speed is again to lay the rubber down. If your tyres are inflated to too high a pressure, you are pretty much bouncing from one road deformation to next. So again, wasted energy .. though the rattling will make it feel faster.

For a road bike to aquaplane you will have to be doing well over 100kmph (fact .. !!). The only purpose treads serve is to move water away from between tyre and ground. This is not required for bikes.

The above are reasons why :-
1. Formula 1 forces teams to have treads in the dry ... to slow the cars down. In the wet, they do it voluntarily to keep on the track ..
2. In Rally ... flying through the air is slower though it looks a lot cooler .. keeping tyres on the ground is faster.

So the advise on this thread so far is all good .... you don't need to inflate to max pressure for good grip and low ROLLING resistance.

Need a triathlete to give educated opinion on wind resistance by going thinner and how much of a difference this will make.

blorg

Noangel72 wrote: »

..........I still think high pressure will give you less resistance between ground and tyre and therefore increase speed (however the same principle would make for less stability on wet roads)!.....regarding thread on the tyre I would say this is necessary in wet conditions when cornering, hence why it's mostly on the sidewalls of the tyre....I would agree there's no use fo it at the center.......

You may think all of this but that doesn't mean it is true

Tread reduces the amount of rubber in contact with the road. As to hydroplaning, Sheldon has a chart which suggests 183km/h to be the speed at which it becomes a risk for tyres pumped to 120 PSI. This of course has nothing to do with coming off around corners in the wet but I remember Tour did a tyre test which showed essentially minimal difference between all racing tyres in terms of cornering ability in the wet. Certainly tread does not improve things.

Higher pressures do reduce rolling resistance but it is really really minimal after the ~110PSI mark and the reduction in traction and ride quality will have a more negative effect on speed.

Lumen

140 PSI and 19mm tyres is in the same category as naked cycling, i.e. it wouldn't matter if it made me 50% faster, I still wouldn't do it.

And no, this is not an invitation to post that picture of Lance.

TinyExplosions

Lumen wrote: »

And no, this is not an invitation to post that picture of Lance.

You mean this one?


You're right, we shouldn't....

Noangel72

.....all of the above sounds like good advice...but then why do manufacturers bother with producing tyres with threads and high psi?.....lots of it is marketing, but there must be some genuine R&D going into the final product.....!

Lumen

Noangel72 wrote: »

.....all of the above sounds like good advice...but then why do manufacturers bother with producing tyres with threads and high psi?.....lots of it is marketing, but there must be some genuine R&D going into the final product.....!

Of course there is R&D, but it's all for nothing if the end product doesn't sell. Hence "waterproof to 200m".

Treads, please. Or else you'll get confused with "threads per inch", which is something else entirely

blorg

Marketing mainly. Higher PSI rating = higher number = better.

Many good racing tyres have no tread whatsoever (Schwalbe for example) while Continental would be an example of a tyre manufacturer that only rates their racing tyres to 120 PSI (while recommending 110 PSI.)

Incidentally Continental has a new 700x24c tyre out that they are promoting for racing on the basis that it rolls faster while offering better grip.

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

Incidentally Continental has a new 700x24c tyre out that they are promoting for racing on the basis that it rolls faster while offering better grip.

Wide is the new narrow in rims too. This trend started with HED Ardennes, now Zipp are at it.

Despite the claimed technical benefits, I half suspect this is a ruse to sell more carbon wheels to recreational riders.

tunney

short circuit wrote: »

Secondly, the only way to maintain speed is again to lay the rubber down. If your tyres are inflated to too high a pressure, you are pretty much bouncing from one road deformation to next. So again, wasted energy .. though the rattling will make it feel faster.

QFT

short circuit wrote: »

Need a triathlete to give educated opinion on wind resistance by going thinner and how much of a difference this will make.

neglibile. and contra indicated. Some swear by 19mm up front, but then there is the comfort cost. Steve Hed is pushing a change to 23mm as more aero, but only if the rims match the tyres. While others still are pushing 23mm as more aero full stop because of the way they will deform over the rims.

In short 19mm vs 22mm (or 23mm) is not a huge consideration outside of the pro cycling levels, even there I'd say more riders just ride what the mechanics stick on.

For Irish time trials and triathlons most are on terrible roads (compared to US and contential roads) so the comfort factor of 22/23 over 19 is much more important. Especially the longer you go.

I'd spend more time making sure your cabling is tucked away neatly than worrying about this one.

tunney

Lumen wrote: »

Wide is the new narrow in rims too. This trend started with HED Ardennes, now Zipp are at it.

Despite the claimed technical benefits, I half suspect this is a ruse to sell more carbon wheels to recreational riders.

If Zipp had started it then maybe. Not Hed though, they have a little more nicer way of conducting themselves and they seem to be the ones always at the forefront.

Noangel72

...so in practical terms what brand/model would you recommend as the ideal:

_racing tyre?
_training tyre?
_cross over between the two?

tunney

Noangel72 wrote: »

...so in practical terms what brand/model would you recommend as the ideal:

_racing tyre?
_training tyre?
_cross over between the two?

Racing tubs - conti competitions
Racing clinchers - michelin pro-race 3 with latex tubes
Training - conti gatorskins

Cross over- none

blorg

Noangel72 wrote: »

.....my existing tyres are rated 100psi and can push them to 120....so that means that I should be able to inflate the gp4000 as high as 130/140 which should suit me when racing........I've ordered the Gp4000 so I will leave some feedback on them shortly.......:)

Out of interest what tyres do you currently have that they are only rated at 100 PSI? Are your current tyres very wide (700x28c or something?) 100 PSI would be a very strange max rating for a 700x23c tyre from any manufacturer.

Noangel72

Bontrager Select, 700×25c........always pushed them up to 120psi....good tyres but it's now time to change them.......

dave2pvd

What do you weigh? Your tyre pressure ought to be somewhat proportional to your weight. In fact, some manufacturers provide a psi/Kg chart with their tyres (Zipp comes to mind).

I am 75Kg and run 110/100psi rear/front for dry criteriums. For wet: lose 5-10psi on both.

19mm is only faster because of its 'alleged' aero benefits on a deep rim. Zipp sell such a tyre; the Tangente. It's even dimpled, just like the rims! Just don't attempt high-speed cornering on it.... I use these for TTs. On a smooth road, on a dry day: 125/120 would be typical for me. Being tubular, these pressures run a bit higher. Plus, the cross section is less round, more elongated. For typical tubulars at my weight, 120/115 would be appropriate.

High performance road tyres really don't have threads. Other than occasional 'designs' like Conti use, the grip surface tends to be smooth. As others have said, aquaplaning = a non issue.

Watch out for tyres that are very light: they won't have the puncture resistance that heavier tyres have. Light weight makes little difference when you are riding a TT. I'd say one of the foremost concerns you have is puncture resistance.... TPI count might be up there also - often a higher TPI count can reduce rolling resistance.

Lastly, keep in mind that the pressure gauge on your track pump might be wildly inaccurate.

Noangel72

...I agree, puncture resistance is my first concern when racing......anyway I think for now I will settle for Conti gp4000s....from what I read they should be a good compromise.......next season, new bike.....better tyres !

...I am 79kg...according to the table I should ride 121front and 126 back.....which is not too far from what I run now......

.....anyway, what's the advantage in running tubulars?

dave2pvd

Noangel72 wrote: »

.....anyway, what's the advantage in running tubulars?

Run for cover!

That question usually makes threads descend into fisticuffs

Some reasons: pinch puncture resistance, grip, sweet ride (compliant), lighter carbon fiber rims than alu insert clinchers. 1,250g. That has to be worth 50W going up hills, compared to the Ksyriums

The big disadvantages: expensive, puncture repair kit gets big, messing with glue is a PITA.

They're hardly worth it, TBH. I only ride 404 tubulars with Tangentes because I paid team pricing rates. Fantastic kit, but come on, all of that money could bring your retirement date a few months closer.

Noangel72

......it sounds wayyyyyy too complicated.....!

blorg

You would need to change your wheels to run tubulars and tubular wheels don't tend to be cheap. I don't think you need to be considering it at this stage

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

You would need to change your wheels to run tubulars and tubular wheels don't tend to be cheap. I don't think you need to be considering it at this stage

Pah, start as you mean to go on. It'll work out cheaper in the long run.

Chips Lovell

Lumen wrote: »

Pah, start as you mean to go on. It'll work out cheaper in the long run.

They ain't tubulars

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

Pah, start as you mean to go on. It'll work out cheaper in the long run.

They are for tubless tyres, which is different from tubular?

TinyExplosions

Raam wrote: »

They are for tubless tyres, which is different from tubular?

Tubular are a sewn outer casing and inner tube combined, glued onto a rim. Tubeless are like a clincher without an innertube.

tubeless, tubular

tunney

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Tubular are a sewn outer casing and inner tube combined, glued onto a rim. Tubeless are like a clincher without an innertube.

And possibly the stupidest idea ever.

blorg

tunney wrote: »

And possibly the stupidest idea ever.

They make a lot of sense on a mountain bike as they allow you to run very low pressures for increased traction without the risk of pinch flats.

As to what the point is on a road bike I am not so sure. Lennard Zinn likes them, nicer ride characteristics and increased puncture protection he reckons. I don't think they are aimed so much at people racing.

TinyExplosions

Barry in worldwide seems to rate them

tunney

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Barry in worldwide seems to rate them

well then they must be great.

TinyExplosions

tunney wrote: »

well then they must be great.

All I'm saying is we have one person raving about them (Barry), and one railing on them (tunney) -we need someone to break this conundrum!

Raam

TinyExplosions wrote: »

All I'm saying is we have one person raving about them (Barry), and one railing on them (tunney) -we need someone to break this conundrum!

Ah it's just more ideas from the marketing mumbo jumbo team to try generate sales. "Oh these things will help prevent punctures and you will ride faster"

Chips Lovell

I read somewhere that the riders at Francaise de Jeux weren't too impressed with them. Can't remember where though.

petethedrummer

TinyExplosions wrote: »

All I'm saying is we have one person raving about them (Barry), and one railing on them (tunney) -we need someone to break this conundrum!