Good vegan/vegetarian subsitutes for fish and eggs (eg mayonnaise).

CathyMoran · 30-05-2009 6:27pm #1

Hi,

I am currently eating fish, eggs and dairy though have been vegetarian on and off since my early teens. I do have a lot of dietary problems and find it hard to get enough iron in my diet when I go vegetarian/vegan. I can not eat soy or peanuts and find that most vegan protien sources are high in carbohydrate also which is another no no for me (I do eat carbs but mainly low GI ones and like not having to count the carbs in "protein foods"). I also would need a mayonnaise type substitute which would be high in calories...and that is even before we get to the issue of a cheese substitute.

If anyone has any suggestions I would be grateful, thanks.

-lala- · 30-05-2009 7:58pm

CathyMoran wrote: »

Hi,

I am currently eating fish, eggs and dairy though have been vegetarian on and off since my early teens. I do have a lot of dietary problems and find it hard to get enough iron in my diet when I go vegetarian/vegan. I can not eat soy or peanuts and find that most vegan protien sources are high in carbohydrate also which is another no no for me (I do eat carbs but mainly low GI ones and like not having to count the carbs in "protein foods"). I also would need a mayonnaise type substitute which would be high in calories...and that is even before we get to the issue of a cheese substitute.

If anyone has any suggestions I would be grateful, thanks.

I'm also allergic to soya and nuts (and I'm a vegan) so I completely sympathise with you here!

Kidney beans are an excellent source of iron (and protein!), other good sources of protein include all beans, peas and lentils, millet (although I suppose that's a bit carby) and certain types of seaweed. Other sources of iron are of course green leafy vegetables. Can you eat other nuts besides peanuts? If so they are also an excellent protein source.

I find that the easiest thing to do when you're a vegan who can't eat soya is to not think of finding "substitutes" for certain things (because you aren't really going to find a cheese substitute!), but to just eat something completely different instead! I tend not to have sandwiches, but instead have some bread (soya-less bread of course - getting harder and harder to find it!) with jam, and then something completely different like a lentil stew with rice or homemade baked beans for lunch.

In terms of egg substitutes, I use 1 1/2 tablespoons of apple sauce per egg when baking or cooking, I find it works very well, but I find it blends in better if you put more sugar in it than you normally would when making apple sauce.

I think being a vegan with a soya allergy, it is impossible to get enough calcium in your diet (rice milk really doesn't have much calcium in it at all!), so I take a calcium supplement, but other than that I get all other nutrients absolutely fine. Potatoes, fruit and especially berries are full of all kinds of nutritious things.

Good luck!

CathyMoran · 30-05-2009 8:07pm

Hi, thanks for that - my problem is that I am a type 1 diabetic so while I can eat carbs I prefer low GI and I like not to have to count the carbs when eating protien if that makes any sense. I am not allergic to nuts but I am trying to concieve at the moment so am trying to minimize peanuts in particular and do not want to have to take suplements. I also need a high calorie low carb source as I can not eat large volumes...

-lala- · 30-05-2009 8:14pm

CathyMoran wrote: »

Hi, thanks for that - my problem is that I am a type 1 diabetic so while I can eat carbs I prefer low GI and I like not to have to count the carbs when eating protien if that makes any sense. I am not allergic to nuts but I am trying to concieve at the moment so am trying to minimize peanuts in particular and do not want to have to take suplements. I also need a high calorie low carb source as I can not eat large volumes...

Hmmm, had no idea peanuts helped people concieve! My nut allergy might be useful for something...

Can't help you on the calories or low GI foods as I'm one of those people with a very, very limited understanding of both calories and low GI food, but google is generally your friend in terms of finding out exactly what is in certain foods - do a bit of research and then plan your menu completely in advance for about a week, after that it will become more natural and you'll be used to knowing what kinds of foods you need to eat and when.

CathyMoran · 30-05-2009 8:20pm

-lala- wrote: »

Hmmm, had no idea peanuts helped people concieve! My nut allergy might be useful for something...

Can't help you on the calories or low GI foods as I'm one of those people with a very, very limited understanding of both calories and low GI food, but google is generally your friend in terms of finding out exactly what is in certain foods - do a bit of research and then plan your menu completely in advance for about a week, after that it will become more natural and you'll be used to knowing what kinds of foods you need to eat and when.

They reccomend that pregnant women or those trying for a baby to avoid peanuts, then again they reccomend avoiding a lot of stuff. I really appreciated your suggestions but they are all high carbohydrate foods which while I eat I want to be able to eat low carb foods as well.

I am sure that there must be some diabetic vegetarians/vegans out there?

sweet-rasmus · 31-05-2009 9:54am

I equally wouldn't know much about low GI or calories. Would the Nutrition and Diet form be able to advise you better? Throw a question at them too if you feel like it.

Just to mention mayonnaise substitute - I've tried the plain one by Plamil (but I think there was a tiny amount of soya http://www.plamilfoods.co.uk/ingredients.htm), but it does taste vinegary (see http://www.plamilfoods.co.uk/mayo.htm ). I see Plamil do a Rice Mayonnaise with no soya, but I've never seen it in the shops in Ireland. Perhaps it could be ordered in. Kelkin do one that I've recently tried and it's very sugary ( http://www.kelkin.ie/prod_dairyfreemayonnaise.html ); sugar being the third ingredient. I don't know which I'd recommend more, as this sugary taste is very weird, but the other was often quite strong itself. I guess you'd want to stay away from the sugary one, come to think of it.

Oh yeah, not sure if you are looking for milk substitutes or not, but I'd recommend calcium and vitamin enriched Oatly (oat milk). As it says on the packet - drinking a 250 mL glass will give you 38 % of your recommended daily allowence of calcium. I love the stuff

CathyMoran · 01-06-2009 6:49pm

It's OK, I kind of guessed that it would be too difficult for me to go vegan with my dietary limitations

I studied food science in college but my dietary restrictions have increased a lot in the past few years. I could cut out fish but it helps with one of the conditions that I have...

Thanks very much for trying everyone.

Parnassia · 10-06-2009 9:57am

CathyMoran wrote: »

It's OK, I kind of guessed that it would be too difficult for me to go vegan with my dietary limitations I studied food science in college but my dietary restrictions have increased a lot in the past few years. I could cut out fish but it helps with one of the conditions that I have...

Thanks very much for trying everyone.

Hrmmm. I don't think you have too many dietary limitations. It should be doable to cut out fish and dairy, at least for a while to see if it suits you.

You can't eat soy or peanuts, and would prefer lower GI (how low?). I've found a list of foods here http://www.carbs-information.com/glycemic-index-food-chart.htm , some beans are around 31, is that okay for you?

You can still eat beans, other nuts (?) and seeds, seitan etc. for protein.

What does the fish help you with? Do you eat it for the omega-3? You could try eating ground flax seeds or walnuts, or you can get a vegan DHA supplement.

For high calorie, low volume foods, how about avocado? Hummus or bean dips made with extra olive oil?

To replace mayonnaise, I'm not sure if I've seen any soy-free vegan versions, you could check health food shops, or try to make your own? I've made a white bean dip in the past that could take the place of mayonnaise on a sandwich (just any white beans, e.g. butter beans, whiz up in a food processor with olive oil, salt, black pepper, garlic if you want)

There are alternatives available to soy milk - you could try rice milk, or almond or oat milk.

You mentioned not wanting to take supplements in your first post. If you want to follow a vegan diet, you will have to supplement B12, and possible vitamin D. Some vegan foods are already fortified with them, but they're essentially 'supplements' themselves.

I hope this was helpful. Ask away if you have any questions, or if you want some recipe suggestions. It might be easier for you to give up one thing at a time and see how you get on with it, rather than go 'cold turkey'. Even if you find you can live without cow milk, but have to have cheese, that would be 'good for the animals', and a positive step that you can take.

If you want, you could post a typical day's diet, and then we could see what needs replacing, and try to find suitable foods with a similar nutrition profile.

Good luck!

Thoushaltnot · 10-06-2009 10:55am

CathyMoran wrote: »

Hi,

I am currently eating fish, eggs and dairy though have been vegetarian on and off since my early teens. I do have a lot of dietary problems and find it hard to get enough iron in my diet when I go vegetarian/vegan.

Screamingly obvious to some of us here but some Golden Rules;
HAVE VIT C WITH IRON SOURCE FOODS.
It boosts the absorbtion rate. Glass of *fresh* orange juice with your lentil casserole. Vit C doesn't store well ands is destroyed by heating so best to get it fresh from a fruit - citrus fruits are best but whatever your fave fruit is, go for it.

Ditto, Vit D boosts absorbtion of Calcium but lesser known is that vinegar boosts absorbtion of Vit D. Go for cider vinegar, as opposed to regular wine vinegar.

Seaweed/sea vegetables are great for trace minerals and can add "fishiness" to a dish - chuck in 10m mins before the end of cooking.

Also good news - cocoa is relatively high source of iron but the sugar in chocolate/hot choc does detract from the nutritional gains. Add a spoonful to savoury, spicy dishes - especially mexican, though I've tried grated cocoa in mushroom risotto. Raw cacao is quite savoury. Very rich.
Dark green leaft vegetables ftw here too. I can't recommend spinach highly enough.

I can not eat soy or peanuts and find that most vegan protien sources are high in carbohydrate also which is another no no for me (I do eat carbs but mainly low GI ones and like not having to count the carbs in "protein foods"). I also would need a mayonnaise type substitute which would be high in calories...and that is even before we get to the issue of a cheese substitute.

If anyone has any suggestions I would be grateful, thanks.

Almonds and quinoa* are quite high in protein but unfortunately, most veggie sources of protein are also high in carbs. Seeds, seeds, seeds - sunflower, pumpkin, hemp, poppy, sesame! Actually, sesame seeds are relatively high in calcium, so hummous is a good mayo substitute.
Fresh avocados - "a complete food" - mush it up and you have a mayo equivalent too.

You didn't say that you were on a gluten/wheat free diet - try oat milk instead of soya. In fact, oats are another superfood. Barley is also known as a health restorer and the groats (whole, unprocessed grains) can be used as the base of a risotto. Haven't tried oat groats but a great site for ideas there is www.101cookbooks.com - not vegetarian, per se, but as good as.

The chinese use wheat gluten to make mock meats, like "mock duck", "mock abalone". Unfortunately, in asian stores, it's tinned in oil, and typically flavoured with soy and msg but the health food stores might give you better options.

I haven't tried the Spirulina protein powder (specified that it's low carb/lo gi) but the hemp protein powder I've added to muesli, as it was slightly sweet and I found it *excellent* for muscle mass gain (without much effort too!). Got mine in Superquinn but I've also seen it in Tesco - Virginia Harvest.

Have you considered moving more towards a raw food diet? This is the time of year to go for it. I accidentally went "raw" quite a few years back - pretty much nothing but apples - and I was surprised at how invigorated and lively I was - had no problems giving blood either!

And, you say elesewhere that you are trying to concieve at the moment - why pick now to retry a vegan/vegetarian diet, seeing as you've had so many problems with it before?

Actually, just remembered a program on de telly re conception - it got men to drink 3 smoothies/raw fruit n veg juices per day to improve sperm quality and they were all massively improved at the end of that time. I believe it also works for wimmins too (though, not for their sperm production, lol!)

Lots more where that came from but sher, fire ahead with that and let us know how you get on, roight?

* Quinoa: soak overenight, then wash by rubbing the grains between your hands to get the bitter coating off, rinse a few times, then cook like rice.
you'll know its done when the little "tails" separate from the grains.

Thoushaltnot · 10-06-2009 11:23am

And don't forget your folic acid/folate - to prevent spina bifida - found in yer citrus fruits. It's one of the B vits, so water soluble and (correct me if I'm wrong) destroyed/depleted by cooking.

Typically added to bread but if you eat yer fresh greens and lots of pulse based dishes, you should be grand.

sweet-rasmus · 10-06-2009 11:30am

Great post Thoushaltnot! I have deffo learnt a thing or two from it.

Thoushaltnot · 10-06-2009 11:46am

Parnassia wrote: »

You mentioned not wanting to take supplements in your first post. If you want to follow a vegan diet, you will have to supplement B12, and possible vitamin D.

I read a long time ago that the liver can store B12 for up to 5 years but vegans surprised nutritional scientists by seeming to be fine, well after 5 years of being free of animal foods (B12 is purely found in meat, fish, eggs, milk cheese, etc.). The scientists postulated that maybe the vegans were accidentally getting their B12 from tiny insects/microbes found on the plant food and not washed off.
Not sure what the current recommended B12 stats are but if your not too fussy in your definition of vegan, yeast is high in B12 - think Marmite, but you can buy yeast from the fridge of a health food store.

Vit D is called the "sunshine vitamin" 'cos it's typically produced in the skin by the action of sunlight on it. Apparently, we get enough sun here!!! 15 mins on face and hands per day for the fairskinned, 30 for the darker skinned ones.

Open to correction on the finer points here but standing by the main ones.

Parnassia · 10-06-2009 1:01pm

Thoushaltnot wrote: »

I read a long time ago that the liver can store B12 for up to 5 years but vegans surprised nutritional scientists by seeming to be fine, well after 5 years of being free of animal foods (B12 is purely found in meat, fish, eggs, milk cheese, etc.). The scientists postulated that maybe the vegans were accidentally getting their B12 from tiny insects/microbes found on the plant food and not washed off.
Not sure what the current recommended B12 stats are but if your not too fussy in your definition of vegan, yeast is high in B12 - think Marmite, but you can buy yeast from the fridge of a health food store.

Vit D is called the "sunshine vitamin" 'cos it's typically produced in the skin by the action of sunlight on it. Apparently, we get enough sun here!!! 15 mins on face and hands per day for the fairskinned, 30 for the darker skinned ones.

Open to correction on the finer points here but standing by the main ones.

I have heard of this B12 study before, but haven't seen the paper - do you remember where you saw it? The vegan society currently recommends either supplementing or using a fortified soymilk/other fortified food. http://www.vegansociety.com/food/nutrition/b12/ Vitamin B12 is an added ingredient in Marmite, so why recommend that over a supplement? I love marmite, but don't eat it every day, so I try to remember to take a supplement when I don't.

We get enough vitamin D here in the summer, when we spend enough time outside without sunblock, but not in the winter (at least according to the vegan society http://www.vegansociety.com/food/nutrition/vitaminD.php).

CathyMoran · 10-06-2009 6:30pm

Thoushaltnot wrote: »

Screamingly obvious to some of us here but some Golden Rules;
HAVE VIT C WITH IRON SOURCE FOODS.
It boosts the absorbtion rate. Glass of *fresh* orange juice with your lentil casserole. Vit C doesn't store well ands is destroyed by heating so best to get it fresh from a fruit - citrus fruits are best but whatever your fave fruit is, go for it.

Ditto, Vit D boosts absorbtion of Calcium but lesser known is that vinegar boosts absorbtion of Vit D. Go for cider vinegar, as opposed to regular wine vinegar.

Seaweed/sea vegetables are great for trace minerals and can add "fishiness" to a dish - chuck in 10m mins before the end of cooking.

Also good news - cocoa is relatively high source of iron but the sugar in chocolate/hot choc does detract from the nutritional gains. Add a spoonful to savoury, spicy dishes - especially mexican, though I've tried grated cocoa in mushroom risotto. Raw cacao is quite savoury. Very rich.
Dark green leaft vegetables ftw here too. I can't recommend spinach highly enough.

Almonds and quinoa* are quite high in protein but unfortunately, most veggie sources of protein are also high in carbs. Seeds, seeds, seeds - sunflower, pumpkin, hemp, poppy, sesame! Actually, sesame seeds are relatively high in calcium, so hummous is a good mayo substitute.
Fresh avocados - "a complete food" - mush it up and you have a mayo equivalent too.

You didn't say that you were on a gluten/wheat free diet - try oat milk instead of soya. In fact, oats are another superfood. Barley is also known as a health restorer and the groats (whole, unprocessed grains) can be used as the base of a risotto. Haven't tried oat groats but a great site for ideas there is www.101cookbooks.com - not vegetarian, per se, but as good as.

The chinese use wheat gluten to make mock meats, like "mock duck", "mock abalone". Unfortunately, in asian stores, it's tinned in oil, and typically flavoured with soy and msg but the health food stores might give you better options.

I haven't tried the Spirulina protein powder (specified that it's low carb/lo gi) but the hemp protein powder I've added to muesli, as it was slightly sweet and I found it *excellent* for muscle mass gain (without much effort too!). Got mine in Superquinn but I've also seen it in Tesco - Virginia Harvest.

Have you considered moving more towards a raw food diet? This is the time of year to go for it. I accidentally went "raw" quite a few years back - pretty much nothing but apples - and I was surprised at how invigorated and lively I was - had no problems giving blood either!

And, you say elesewhere that you are trying to concieve at the moment - why pick now to retry a vegan/vegetarian diet, seeing as you've had so many problems with it before?

Actually, just remembered a program on de telly re conception - it got men to drink 3 smoothies/raw fruit n veg juices per day to improve sperm quality and they were all massively improved at the end of that time. I believe it also works for wimmins too (though, not for their sperm production, lol!)

Lots more where that came from but sher, fire ahead with that and let us know how you get on, roight?

* Quinoa: soak overenight, then wash by rubbing the grains between your hands to get the bitter coating off, rinse a few times, then cook like rice.
you'll know its done when the little "tails" separate from the grains.

Hi, I appreciate those details, however when I said low GI, I should have said carbohydrate free. As I have said before I am a type 1 diabetic which means that I can (and do) eat mainly low GI carbs, however due to surgery for another medical condition I am supposed to graze all day to get enough calories in (I fail

), it just would not work eating carbs all the time so I try and eat protien foods (such as at the moment fish paste).

The mayo suggestions while good would not help me as I need it to be carb free

The reason why I eat fish is that I had a particular type of surgery and read that it helps with recovery of this, while it was 28 months ago http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0407/1224244136723.html

The reason why I am trying to become vegetarian/vegan now is the ongoing conflict I have about our adorable goldfish/koi - I do not feel right eating a "relative" of theirs. I would be personally reluctant to eat mycoprotien as I am ttc and am being very careful what I eat - if something has not been eaten safely for a long time I will not eat it!

I also hate sesame seeds and humous, so they are out

I would typically have a cup of tea for breakfast, a low fat yogurt for morning break, a cheese pannini or pasta (with mayo) for lunch, sardine paste and mayo when I get home then either pasta/tortellini/rice/rattaloilli and an icecream (my one treat)...if I can I eat more later...it looks like a lot but I can only eat small portions...you can see why the mayo and fish are important for extra calories - I should be eating more and struggle to maintain my weight.

If anyone has any further suggestions I would be grateful.

I should state that I take folic acid tablets - I would not take any other supplements while ttc and can not swallow tablets in any case

Tar.Aldarion · 10-06-2009 7:23pm

Thoushaltnot wrote: »

* Quinoa: soak overenight, then wash by rubbing the grains between your hands to get the bitter coating off, rinse a few times, then cook like rice.
you'll know its done when the little "tails" separate from the grains.

Just wondering, is most quinoa sold here already washed? It's supposed to taste bad if not soaked. I have began eating it regularly and it tastes fine without any soaking etc

Thoushaltnot · 12-06-2009 1:33pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Just wondering, is most quinoa sold here already washed? It's supposed to taste bad if not soaked. I have began eating it regularly and it tastes fine without any soaking etc

I'm sure *most*, if not all is. But I hadn't seen that washing recommendation in many places, so I'm just spreading the word. The saponins that originaly coat the grain can taste very bitter.

So, if anyone has tried quinoa but thought "yuk, no thanks", then that could be whats going on.

Thoushaltnot · 12-06-2009 2:50pm

CathyMoran wrote: »

Hi,

I am currently eating fish, eggs and dairy though have been vegetarian on and off since my early teens. I do have a lot of dietary problems and find it hard to get enough iron in my diet when I go vegetarian/vegan.

From "Becoming Vegan" by Davis & Melina (2000)
"Because dairy products lack iron and interfere with absorbtion of this mineral, iron-deficiency anaemia became a problem for some vegetarians who relied on dairy, rather than legumes, as primary protein sources"

There is a problem in that certain minerals are absorbed in preference to other minerals - possibly here calcium bullies in ahead of iron. Some minerals also absorb better together. I used to have this all off pat but I'm sure it's to be found on the 'net if you'd like to read more.

You mention elsewhere that you need to be on a low/no carb diet - so high protein & high calorie then?
High calorie in this case will need to mean high fat as calories mostly come from fats and carbs, so lots of oils - I have seen some good vegan Omega 3 (& 6 + 9 ) oils on sale - often hemp based.
I don't know enough about Liquid Aminos but as the building blocks of protein, they might be worth investigating.
Nut butters would be high in both protein & oils (calories).
And I have seen brazil nut protein powder on sale on the net too.

I'm no stranger to the anaesthetist myself and I would take multi vits/multi minerals for a month/6 weeks both before and after an operation, after reading of a study that showed noticeable benefits in recovery and healing times. I'll add Omega 3 to the list - cheers!

Finally, I think that the limitations of your particular circumstances and preferences is, in all probability, beyond the scope of this forum. Maybe you should get your doctor/hospital to recommend a qualified dietitian?
Preferably one that specializes in cancer and vegetarianism. Just a thought.

Thoushaltnot · 12-06-2009 3:26pm

Cast Iron cookware!

Really recommended if you make alot of tomato based dishes - the acid in the tomato sauce leeches iron out of the pot and into your meal, especially if left overnight.

I have come across a reference to some acids being not suitable - the oxalic acid found in sesame seeds, rhubarb, spinach, swiss chard and beet greens comes to mind as it blocks the absorbtion of calcium but as calcium and iron compete....

If anyone has more info about this, I'd be glad to read it.

Thoushaltnot · 12-06-2009 3:50pm

Parnassia wrote: »

I have heard of this B12 study before, but haven't seen the paper - do you remember where you saw it?

Paper? Ha, I'm not a food scientist, just an ex-food/vitamins anorak. Not a hope in hell of remembering, sorry.

That said, when I first went veggie, 19 years ago, the story was that B12 came from animal foods only. It seems now that this was inaccurate and that B12 is synthesized by bacteria and according to "Becoming Vegan" by Davis and Melina, 2000;
"The fact that the plants we eat lack vitamin B12 is not a sign that we need to eat animal foods. Neither plants nor animals synthesize the vitamin - it is made by bacteria. It just happens that the animals and their food are contaminated with B12-producing bacteria. Our plant foods may also be contaminated with these bacteria, but we generally wash away the vitamin B12 during food preparation"

From Wikipedia;
Synthesis

Vitamin B12 cannot be made by plants or animals[5] as only bacteria have the enzymes required for its synthesis. The total synthesis of B12 was reported by Robert Burns Woodward [6] and Albert Eschenmoser,[7][8] and remains one of the classic feats of organic synthesis.
Species from the following genera are known to synthesize B12: Aerobacter, Agrobacterium, Alcaligenes, Azotobacter, Bacillus, Clostridium, Corynebacterium, Flavobacterium, Micromonospora, Mycobacterium, Nocardia, Propionibacterium, Protaminobacter, Proteus, Pseudomonas, Rhizobium, Salmonella, Serratia, Streptomyces, Streptococcus and Xanthomonas. Industrial production of B12 is through fermentation of selected microorganisms.[9] Streptomyces griseus, a bacterium once thought to be a yeast, was the commercial source of vitamin B12 for many years.[10][11] The species Pseudomonas denitrificans and Propionibacterium shermanii are more commonly used today.[12] These are frequently grown under special conditions to enhance yield, and at least one company, Rhône-Poulenc of France, at one point used genetically engineered versions of one or both of these species.[13] It is not clear whether Sanofi-Aventis, the company which the pharmaceutical division of Rhône-Poulenc merged into, has continued the use of genetically modified organisms.

The vegan society currently recommends either supplementing or using a fortified soymilk/other fortified food. http://www.vegansociety.com/food/nutrition/b12/
Vitamin B12 is an added ingredient in Marmite, so why recommend that over a supplement?

Good question, I wouldn't have thought that B12 would need to be added to it but your right, it is added (along with other B vits). Maybe all the processing destroys the B vits, originally present in the yeast ingredient?
Anyhoo, the point was that it's better to get your vits and minerals from actual foods, in preference to supplements.
I've never tried Brewer's yeast on toast

We get enough vitamin D here in the summer, when we spend enough time outside without sunblock, but not in the winter (at least according to the vegan society http://www.vegansociety.com/food/nutrition/vitaminD.php).

Cheers for clearing that one up!

CathyMoran · 12-06-2009 4:06pm

Thoushaltnot wrote: »

Paper? Ha, I'm not a food scientist, just an ex-food/vitamins anorak. Not a hope in hell of remembering, sorry.

I am

though it is years ago, I specialised in food allergies though not this and drifted into IT...

I can not take supplements, I can not swallow them for one and also I would not take anything apart from folic acid when trying to concieve as I do not want to take any chances.

I do eat a lot of carbs but they are mainly low GI but I have to eat high calorie low volume foods in between the carbs...

Parnassia · 15-06-2009 8:47am

Thoushaltnot wrote: »

Paper? Ha, I'm not a food scientist, just an ex-food/vitamins anorak. Not a hope in hell of remembering, sorry.

That said, when I first went veggie, 19 years ago, the story was that B12 came from animal foods only. It seems now that this was inaccurate and that B12 is synthesized by bacteria and according to "Becoming Vegan" by Davis and Melina, 2000;
"The fact that the plants we eat lack vitamin B12 is not a sign that we need to eat animal foods. Neither plants nor animals synthesize the vitamin - it is made by bacteria. It just happens that the animals and their food are contaminated with B12-producing bacteria. Our plant foods may also be contaminated with these bacteria, but we generally wash away the vitamin B12 during food preparation"

From Wikipedia;
Synthesis

Vitamin B12 cannot be made by plants or animals[5] as only bacteria have the enzymes required for its synthesis. The total synthesis of B12 was reported by Robert Burns Woodward [6] and Albert Eschenmoser,[7][8] and remains one of the classic feats of organic synthesis.
Species from the following genera are known to synthesize B12: Aerobacter, Agrobacterium, Alcaligenes, Azotobacter, Bacillus, Clostridium, Corynebacterium, Flavobacterium, Micromonospora, Mycobacterium, Nocardia, Propionibacterium, Protaminobacter, Proteus, Pseudomonas, Rhizobium, Salmonella, Serratia, Streptomyces, Streptococcus and Xanthomonas. Industrial production of B12 is through fermentation of selected microorganisms.[9] Streptomyces griseus, a bacterium once thought to be a yeast, was the commercial source of vitamin B12 for many years.[10][11] The species Pseudomonas denitrificans and Propionibacterium shermanii are more commonly used today.[12] These are frequently grown under special conditions to enhance yield, and at least one company, Rhône-Poulenc of France, at one point used genetically engineered versions of one or both of these species.[13] It is not clear whether Sanofi-Aventis, the company which the pharmaceutical division of Rhône-Poulenc merged into, has continued the use of genetically modified organisms.

Good question, I wouldn't have thought that B12 would need to be added to it but your right, it is added (along with other B vits). Maybe all the processing destroys the B vits, originally present in the yeast ingredient?
Anyhoo, the point was that it's better to get your vits and minerals from actual foods, in preference to supplements.
I've never tried Brewer's yeast on toast

Cheers for clearing that one up!

In asking for the paper, I was trying to refute your claim that vegans don't need to take B12

As far as I know, b12 is in meat and dairy because the animals eat stuff that has bacteria/B12 in it. PERHAPS if we ate fruit and veg that wasn't washed, drank water that wasn't purified, vegans would not need to supplement.

I agree with the majority of what you have said in previous posts, but I think it's dangerous to suggest that B12 supplementation may not be necessary.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html
http://www.beyondveg.com/walsh-s/vitamin-b12/vegans-1.shtml
http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/vegansources
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm

Marmite is produced as a by-product from beer brewing. The B vitamins in it are added, much like the vitamins in corn flakes. My point here is that these are essentially little bits of vitamin tablet added to a food - not much different to taking a multivitamin. I agree that it is better to get your nutrition from actual food rather than a pill, but when foods are 'fortified' with vitamins, I don't see the difference.

Cathy, given your dietary restrictions, perhaps you could try to have one vegan meal a day or so to see how you get on, if you still feel strongly about it. You probably eat some vegan meals already without realising it - pasta and tomato sauce, for example, is usually vegan!

As far as I'm aware, lots of women take prenatal supplements, and you should be able to get them in liquid or chewable form if you can't swallow tablets, should you decide to try them. You can get B12 in a sublingual 'tab', that dissolves on your tongue. I second the suggestion above to work with a nutritionist/dietician to see if you can work around the issues.

Anyway, don't beat yourself up about it if it doesn't work for you, or doesn't work at this point in your life. Your priority should be keeping yourself healthy and happy. There's no point in being a miserable vegan, you'll give us bad publicity

All the best with whatever you choose to do, and ttc-wise, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

Thoushaltnot · 15-06-2009 10:27am

Parnassia wrote: »

In asking for the paper, I was trying to refute your claim that vegans don't need to take B12

Where did I claim that!?! Vitamins are, by definition, things that we *need*, not just *would be nice, occasionally*.

As far as I know, b12 is in meat and dairy because the animals eat stuff that has bacteria/B12 in it. PERHAPS if we ate fruit and veg that wasn't washed, drank water that wasn't purified, vegans would not need to supplement.

I agree with the majority of what you have said in previous posts, but I think it's dangerous to suggest that B12 supplementation may not be necessary.

B12 is necessary for *all* humans.

Sorry, if I seemed to suggest that we didn't need B12 - that was not my intention. I guess I was a bit more focused on giving the index finger to the claims that a vegan diet is unnatural for humans - the B12 in animal foods being used as another stick to beat us with. Modern hygiene may be the real "villain" here.:rolleyes:

Anyhoo, my point was more about dosage and time limits. You can go for a while without, just make sure you give yourself a good, big dollup to make up. Deficiencies in other vits/minerals will show up alot faster, is all, eg. iron, for menstruating vegans.

However, it is much harder to achieve the necessary intake, without supplementation/eating fortified food if you are vegan, unless you put alot of thought and effort into it (and this B12 analog stuff, :eek:). That said, it does seem to be recycled in the body for a while - some folks are better at it than others but sooner or later (I've seen a range of 3-20 years quoted elsewhere), you will *need* to get some fresh B12 into you.

The consequences of B12 deficiency are serious and can sometimes be irreversible.

So, yup - wholeheartedly! While I'd rather get my goodies from real food - better to be safe than sorry. If in doubt, vegans, eat your fortified foods.

Gollygosh, Batman! This B12 stuff is turning out to be a case of "The more you know, the more you know you don't know". Thanks for the links, btw.

Parnassia · 15-06-2009 11:48am

Thoushaltnot wrote: »

Where did I claim that!?! Vitamins are, by definition, things that we *need*, not just *would be nice, occasionally*.

B12 is necessary for *all* humans.

Sorry, if I seemed to suggest that we didn't need B12 - that was not my intention. I guess I was a bit more focused on giving the index finger to the claims that a vegan diet is unnatural for humans - the B12 in animal foods being used as another stick to beat us with. Modern hygiene may be the real "villain" here.:rolleyes:

Anyhoo, my point was more about dosage and time limits. You can go for a while without, just make sure you give yourself a good, big dollup to make up. Deficiencies in other vits/minerals will show up alot faster, is all, eg. iron, for menstruating vegans.

However, it is much harder to achieve the necessary intake, without supplementation/eating fortified food if you are vegan, unless you put alot of thought and effort into it (and this B12 analog stuff, :eek:). That said, it does seem to be recycled in the body for a while - some folks are better at it than others but sooner or later (I've seen a range of 3-20 years quoted elsewhere), you will *need* to get some fresh B12 into you.

The consequences of B12 deficiency are serious and can sometimes be irreversible.

So, yup - wholeheartedly! While I'd rather get my goodies from real food - better to be safe than sorry. If in doubt, vegans, eat your fortified foods.

Gollygosh, Batman! This B12 stuff is turning out to be a case of "The more you know, the more you know you don't know". Thanks for the links, btw.

Sorry if I misunderstood you - I've seen claims in a number of places on the internet about B12 supplementation being unnecessary, yadda yadda, so I just wanted to be clear about it.

Yes, it can be difficult to get all your bits and bobs as a vegan, but a bit of thought and attention to what you're eating should be enough to sort you out. I plugged my daily food into fitday.com for a few days to see where I was coming up short nutritionally, there are a number of these kinds of sites, they're very useful (although time consuming!) to keep an eye on what's what with the grub.

Anyway, sorry again for the misunderstanding!

Good vegan/vegetarian subsitutes for fish and eggs (eg mayonnaise).

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