Political Accountability for the Irish Gulag

Hillel

Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s book the “The Gulag Archipelago” did much to discredit Stalin's legacy. George Kennan, quoted in the Economist Issue of Aug 7th 2008 , called his account of Stalin’s terror, “the most powerful single indictment of a political regime ever to be levied in modern times”. Soviet citizens, interested in what was being done in their name, had to read Solzhenitsyn's missive surreptitiously, and at speed.

Bruce Arnold has now written “The Irish Gulag: How the State Betrayed its Innocent Children”. There is no need to read it in secret. To quote Mannix Flynn in the Irish Independent “He chronicles how the State encouraged this process and incarcerated generations of children, condemning them to inhumane torture and slavery – and how they were stripped of any rights whatsoever. My question is this: How are we, the Irish people, going to ensure that insofar as possible, the facilitators of this atrocity are brought to book and the historical legacy updated to truly reflect how state policy contributed to the scale of the state-sponsored oppression?

I would ask that the thread not degenerate into another anti-Catholic debate. Degenerate as many of their members were, the couldn't have operated freely without the support, overt and covert, of the state. Successive governments have tried, so far, so successfully, to divert attention away from state responsibility and state culpability. I say enough! It is time to get political accountability for what happened. I want to see state and party officials in the dock and in jail.

Permabear

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Hillel

donegalfella wrote: »

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We can all take it as read that what happened is criminal and, not only should it not be condoned, but it deserves appropriate sanction under the law.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I beg to differ. The primary difference is one of scale and, given the difference in population between the two countries, not surprising. For far too long apologists have been trying to minimise the extent of what happened. It is time we moved on and accepted that there are issues to be addressed. Neither is it sufficient to heap blame on the religious orders, atrocious as their activities were. The political system was equally culpable. It is time they were brought to account.

Permabear

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The Raven.

Hillel wrote: »

Neither is it sufficient to heap blame on the religious orders, atrocious as their activities were. The political system was equally culpable. It is time they were brought to account.

Crimes are committed by people, not systems. The crimes of sexual abuse and violence against innocent children were committed by members of the Catholic religious orders. They are the criminals at the core. There is no getting away from that fact no matter how it gets dressed up. These criminals were protected by the Catholic Church leaders, who facilitated them in re-offending time and time again.

The politicians, the members of judiciary and social services etc. are accessories to these crimes, in a variety of ways that allowed these institutions to continue unchecked over a period of time. They are guilty of turning a blind eye, and most seriously of ignoring the pleas for help from the unfortunate victims. They are ‘culpable’, but not ‘equally’ so.

However, lets not forget the phenomenal power the Catholic Church has had in Ireland for so many years. This power is of a psychological nature, which is manifested in the sinister control of peoples’ hearts and minds. It has been handed down from one generation to the next, and permeates every aspect of life, both public and private. This religious stranglehold should not be underestimated. It still exists, but to a much lesser degree, especially with younger generations.

Consequently, it is futile to have any discussion on the role of the ‘political system’ in this matter without including the role of the Catholic Church. They have been inseparable until recent times, and there is still a lingering religious influence.

Nonetheless, this does not excuse the cowardliness and treachery perpetrated by the politicians who signed the highly dishonourable deal with the Catholic orders, in full knowledge of the crimes they committed against our most vulnerable members of society. These two politicians should now be forced to resign. I'm not sure how the whole situation regarding the state sending children to these institutions in the past could be addressed without a lengthy and costly enquiry.

One thing for certain is that the government must now take a firm stand with these religious orders and stop treating them as deities above the law. They are not superior to the rest of us, and the criminals amongst them must be brought to justice like all other criminals.

nesf

Hillel wrote: »

I beg to differ. The primary difference is one of scale and, given the difference in population between the two countries, not surprising.

Scale is the primary difference?!? Stalin systematically organised mass murder. In the Irish situation they raped and beat kids, but they didn't fill mass graves with them. Jesus, get some perspective.

nesf

nesf wrote: »

Scale is the primary difference?!? Stalin systematically organised mass murder. In the Irish situation they raped and beat kids, but they didn't fill mass graves with them. Jesus, get some perspective.

There is also a rather large difference in numbers involved.... Stalin sent millions to his various Gulags over the decades, and very few survived. Ireland certainly didn't involve millions of people, and the goal wasn't their deaths. Scale is mentioned, but to make a comparison between the Gulags and this Irish problem is to ignore scale completely.

Hillel wrote:

How are we, the Irish people, going to ensure that insofar as possible, the facilitators of this atrocity are brought to book and the historical legacy updated to truly reflect how state policy contributed to the scale of the state-sponsored oppression?

I'm more interested in the Catholic Church being made responsible rather than focusing our energies on the Irish government. The Church was a law unto itself and could essentially manage their facilities whatever way they wished regardless of the law. This wasn't isolated to Ireland, and many countries in Europe had similar practices. I'm not interested in blaming modern Ireland and the modern governments for something that happened in that past.

Lets face one simple fact. The Irish people approved that the Church would have serious power in this country, and the government would always pause before going against that power. I don't see too many people saying we should blame our parents and grandparents for allowing these things to happen. Because we & they did give the Church the power to be untouchable.

The Raven.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm more interested in the Catholic Church being made responsible rather than focusing our energies on the Irish government. The Church was a law unto itself and could essentially manage their facilities whatever way they wished regardless of the law. This wasn't isolated to Ireland, and many countries in Europe had similar practices. I'm not interested in blaming modern Ireland and the modern governments for something that happened in that past.

I agree that 'the Catholic Church being made responsible' is the most important thing by far. It would be very difficult to accurately assess the total political role except in more recent history. However, I am not saying that it is not worth trying. I think every aspect of this horror should be addressed.

Lets face one simple fact. The Irish people approved that the Church would have serious power in this country, and the government would always pause before going against that power. I don't see too many people saying we should blame our parents and grandparents for allowing these things to happen. Because we & they did give the Church the power to be untouchable.

The problem with this is that it doesn't take into account the brainwashing by the Catholic Church of children from an early age. This has been a particularly difficult thing to correct. Our parents and grandparents were even more affected by it. As someone here has mentioned earlier, the Catholic Church is much the same as any other cult. Try rescuing somebody from the Moonies, and you will find that it is virtually impossible. It requires professional help.

Hillel

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm more interested in the Catholic Church being made responsible rather than focusing our energies on the Irish government. The Church was a law unto itself and could essentially manage their facilities whatever way they wished regardless of the law. This wasn't isolated to Ireland, and many countries in Europe had similar practices.

But...
The Church wasn't a "law unto itself" the government most certaintly did have responsibility, and ultimately accountability, for what happened. Focusing entirely on the Catholic Church, no matter how henious the crimes of that institution were, is to ignore the broader picture.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not interested in blaming modern Ireland and the modern governments for something that happened in that past.

But...
Surely the same arguement applies to the religious orders?
The rationale for bringing the government to account is to ensure that never again do they disregard their responsibilities to the vulnerable, both young and old, in so cavalier a fashion. They have to understand that with political office not only comes power, but also accountability as to how that power is exercised.

Until then, old people will continue to be abused in institutions, teenagers will go missing from care and the mentally ill will be locked up in prison for "crimes" that were forseeable and preventable. I could go on...

DadaKopf

I'd see the sides of both arguments. The gulags and the Irish institutions were created and existed in the Age of Extremes, as Eric Hobsbawm called it. Thankfully, Ireland was spare the excesses of this mad period of European history. Our war of independence, civil war and now this were mild in comparison to what our neighbours endured. But we were not immune.

The way I see what happened in Ireland was that an ideology developed which was a fusion of revolutionary nationalist republicanism (the socialist elements were exponged) with reactive conservative Catholicism. This thrust the republican state and Catholic church into an alliance that continued for decades. One could not speak out against one without speaking out against the other in a self-silencing regime of secrecy.

Both sides were concerned with maintaining order - political and moral order. This meant maintaining social order. These 'schools' were mechanisms of social order in which power was abused systematically. People knew, and yet did not want to believe what went on. The threat of being sent to the schools was a mechanism of control, and the perception that these children entered the schools were 'fallen', that they were a corrupting influence on the whole of the nation and so had to be punished - filtered more widely across society. When justice is divine, anything is permitted. This regime permitted a fantasy of Ireland to be constructed and perpetuated while concealing the ugly reality - that poverty was rife, that the state was derrogating its responsibility to the church, that isolationism was not working but could not be turned around.

In that context - where we were not immune to 'innovations' of social control more extremely applied in other European countries, that we were insulated through our proximity to the UK - they are our mechanisms of broader social control. Our 'Gulags'.

With those caveats, I really do feel the term is justified, emotive though it is. It's not a matter of scale, it's a matter of what these institutions existed for - the same reasons the gulags existed. We can debate the numbers, but what we, as a society need to hold on to is the idea that any institutions of social control must always been open to examination, that the weakest in society must always have a voice. We need to remind ourselves that it can happen again. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

We're yet to hear more about the most voiceless: the mentally ill.

rant_and_rave

The Raven. wrote: »

Nonetheless, this does not excuse the cowardliness and treachery perpetrated by the politicians who signed the highly dishonourable deal with the Catholic orders, in full knowledge of the crimes they committed against our most vulnerable members of society.

I agree with most of your post except this. How do we know the politicians knew the full extent of the abuse when they signed the deal? The Ryan report came later. There have been several changes of Government over the last 60 years. What did liberal campaigner Garrett Fitzgerald ever do about this? Where was Gay Byrne? Do you think all those people who fought the divorce referendum were afraid of the Catholic Church?

rant_and_rave

Deleted User wrote: »

There is also a rather large difference in numbers involved.... Stalin sent millions to his various Gulags over the decades, and very few survived. Ireland certainly didn't involve millions of people, and the goal wasn't their deaths. Scale is mentioned, but to make a comparison between the Gulags and this Irish problem is to ignore scale completely.



I'm more interested in the Catholic Church being made responsible rather than focusing our energies on the Irish government. The Church was a law unto itself and could essentially manage their facilities whatever way they wished regardless of the law. This wasn't isolated to Ireland, and many countries in Europe had similar practices. I'm not interested in blaming modern Ireland and the modern governments for something that happened in that past.

Lets face one simple fact. The Irish people approved that the Church would have serious power in this country, and the government would always pause before going against that power. I don't see too many people saying we should blame our parents and grandparents for allowing these things to happen. Because we & they did give the Church the power to be untouchable.

I totally agree with this post.

Comparison with the gulags is ridiculous. No one died. If they did where are the bodies? 35000 Children went through these institutions over a period of 60 years. That's an average of 600 per year at a time when the number of under 16 year olds in Ireland averaged one million per year. If half the kids were abused, and that number is a lot less than the current number of claiments, then that's 300 per year. This is the chief reason(but not the only reason) the Christian Brothers and the other Religious got away with it. The numbers were small and it was the poor and vunerable in society that suffered. How many rich kids were abused?

The prevaling ethos at the time was one of rigid moral conservative values and most of this related to sex outside marriage. There was no attempt to ban alcohol or gambling. People believed in these values. For example many of the children in the institutions were born out of wedlock and removed from their mothers. Others were made wards of court after their parents split up. Society did not approve of single motherhood or divorce and was quite content to "shovel" the results into the orphanages and industrial schools. No-one forced this on Irish Society. It was accepted practice.

The Raven.

rant_and_rave wrote: »

I agree with most of your post except this. How do we know the politicians knew the full extent of the abuse when they signed the deal? The Ryan report came later.

I was aware that this might be interpreted as being aware of the full extent of the abuse that later emerged in the Ryan Report, but the sun was beating down outside and I was in a hurry to catch some of it.

What I meant was that they were in full knowledge of the abuse that was known at that time: the abuse that brought about the need for the compensation deal they were signing. We now know that this was far from being the whole story, but it was still pretty significant, and the deal included indemnity for the criminals.

There have been several changes of Government over the last 60 years. What did liberal campaigner Garrett Fitzgerald ever do about this? Where was Gay Byrne? Do you think all those people who fought the divorce referendum were afraid of the Catholic Church?

The compensation deal was done in the lifetime of this government. I don’t know what Garrett Fitzgerald knew about the clerical abuse, but it was his government that tried to remove the ban on divorce. I cannot see what Gay Byrne, a chat show host, has to do with any of this. He is neither a priest nor a politician. Wasn’t the divorce referendum done by secret ballot? Hence intimidation was limited to persuasion from the pulpit. Who knows whether it worked, but I seem to remember the concern over property rights featured largely in the voting decisions in 1986.

The Raven.

DadaKopf wrote: »

I'd see the sides of both arguments. The gulags and the Irish institutions were created and existed in the Age of Extremes, as Eric Hobsbawm called it. Thankfully, Ireland was spare the excesses of this mad period of European history. Our war of independence, civil war and now this were mild in comparison to what our neighbours endured. But we were not immune.

The way I see what happened in Ireland was that an ideology developed which was a fusion of revolutionary nationalist republicanism (the socialist elements were exponged) with reactive conservative Catholicism. This thrust the republican state and Catholic church into an alliance that continued for decades. One could not speak out against one without speaking out against the other in a self-silencing regime of secrecy.

Both sides were concerned with maintaining order - political and moral order. This meant maintaining social order. These 'schools' were mechanisms of social order in which power was abused systematically. People knew, and yet did not want to believe what went on. The threat of being sent to the schools was a mechanism of control, and the perception that these children entered the schools were 'fallen', that they were a corrupting influence on the whole of the nation and so had to be punished - filtered more widely across society. When justice is divine, anything is permitted. This regime permitted a fantasy of Ireland to be constructed and perpetuated while concealing the ugly reality - that poverty was rife, that the state was derrogating its responsibility to the church, that isolationism was not working but could not be turned around.

In that context - where we were not immune to 'innovations' of social control more extremely applied in other European countries, that we were insulated through our proximity to the UK - they are our mechanisms of broader social control. Our 'Gulags'.

With those caveats, I really do feel the term is justified, emotive though it is. It's not a matter of scale, it's a matter of what these institutions existed for - the same reasons the gulags existed. We can debate the numbers, but what we, as a society need to hold on to is the idea that any institutions of social control must always been open to examination, that the weakest in society must always have a voice. We need to remind ourselves that it can happen again. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

We're yet to hear more about the most voiceless: the mentally ill.

This is an excellent post, DadaKopf.

nesf

DadaKopf wrote: »

With those caveats, I really do feel the term is justified, emotive though it is.

I would still disagree, I think it would be more accurate to draw parallels with something of similar outcome (i.e. not mass murder). The Gulags and the Concentration Camps will be remembered internationally for generations precisely because they were systematic mass murders on a hitherto unheard of scale, you can't say the same for the present Irish situation. I don't think it diminishes how evil and wrong what happened here is to avoid using over the top emotive labels. The problem here wasn't systematic abuse but system failures which moved offending clergy to other locations without removing their access to children etc. If there was systematic abuse, in that those at the top of the system encouraged such abuse due to some ideological delusion then maybe you could call it the Irish Gulags, maybe.

Hillel

Hillel wrote: »

But...
The Church wasn't a "law unto itself" the government most certaintly did have responsibility, and ultimately accountability, for what happened.

The Catholic Church until the mid 80's held tremendous power in the Republic. While their members were accountable to the law, common perception held that priests and others involved in the church were held to different standards than the common person. Public perception, and the continued influence of the church over most Irish people ensured that they would be treated differently. So while legally they were accounted the same responsibilities as everyone else, realistically they lived under different rules.

The government did indeed have responsibility to manage these institutions, but I have a feeling you're applying modern cultural norms to something that happened when the State was influenced greatly by the Church. There was no way that previous governments from 20 years ago and more were going to lose the support of the church and all their voters, simply because they wished to interfere with the institutions run by them. Its only happening now because the Church has little influence over voters opinions.

Focusing entirely on the Catholic Church, no matter how henious the crimes of that institution were, is to ignore the broader picture.

The Irish people and the Irish government of those times were in love with tradition. And tradition held that people did not question the catholic church, or interfere with their institutions.

Blame the slow change in our culture, if you want to be realistic.

But...
Surely the same arguement applies to the religious orders?
The rationale for bringing the government to account is to ensure that never again do they disregard their responsibilities to the vulnerable, both young and old, in so cavalier a fashion. They have to understand that with political office not only comes power, but also accountability as to how that power is exercised.

The question is are you looking to assign blame, or are you looking to prevent it from happening again? Times have changed, and its unlikely to occur again with the same numbers...

Until then, old people will continue to be abused in institutions, teenagers will go missing from care and the mentally ill will be locked up in prison for "crimes" that were forseeable and preventable. I could go on...

People continue to be abused by individuals, just as they were before. That hasn't changed. We can introduce measures to limit the chances that it occurs, but blaming institutions for the actions of a few individuals is silly. I went to Marist Brothers schools, and was never molested. My parents both went to Catholic boarding schools, and were never abused. You can blame the whole institution for the actions of a few if you wish, but personally, I have serious respect for the Marist Brothers I have known in my life. And that respect comes from the kindness and respect they've showed me during my life, rather than any religious belief on my part.

There is too much of a tendency to blame the whole Catholic church for the actions of the few. Which is just... wrong.

sovtek

rant_and_rave wrote: »

Comparison with the gulags is ridiculous. No one died.

Yes they did!
Do you think with all the beatings that none were beaten to death??? That none starved to death or that none died working in these institutions??? Do you think that people didn't committ suicide because of all the above???
The only question is how many.

sovtek

The Raven. wrote: »

This is an excellent post, DadaKopf.

+1

sovtek

Deleted User wrote: »

There is too much of a tendency to blame the whole Catholic church for the actions of the few. Which is just... wrong.

It isn't wrong when there is evidence that several Popes knew about it. That means that the Catholic church as an institution is criminal and corrupt. That criminality will flow from top to bottom. If an institution covers up the crimes of the individuals then they become criminals themselves. That institution must then be investigate and those individuals must be held accountable. That is how you prevent it from happening again.

is_that_so

DadaKopf wrote: »

With those caveats, I really do feel the term is justified, emotive though it is. It's not a matter of scale, it's a matter of what these institutions existed for - the same reasons the gulags existed. We can debate the numbers, but what we, as a society need to hold on to is the idea that any institutions of social control must always been open to examination, that the weakest in society must always have a voice. We need to remind ourselves that it can happen again. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

We're yet to hear more about the most voiceless: the mentally ill.

I also disagree on much of this. The purpose of the system was not to silence critics as the Gulags were used. The term is emotive and suggests a systematic state-sponsored attempt to brutalise a section of society. This may have been what many of the institutions named became but that was not the original intention.

Its roots were based on a by then already arcane Victorian notion of discipline. Even in Britain industrial schools had all but gone by the turn of the 1900s. Its purpose was to provide solutions and the Church through its strong presence and that of its orders in education was in a position to provide it.

The context of these truly appalling events was in a society, not just here, but in many other countries where extreme discipline was not deemed unacceptable and to many was an essential part of child education. Even into the 1970s corporal punishment at home and school were commonplace.

Many people ignore the fact that as a state we were poverty stricken, almost until the 1960s. The Church and its orders on the other hand had that established link with education for well over a century. It is also ignored that a position within the Church or membership of an order reflected very well on a family. Members of orders were often ill-educated and very young, especially in the CB, and knew little if anything beyond their own experience of childhood. Some came from very underprivileged backgrounds themselves.

There is absolutely no denying the State's culpability in this especially in its use of the "child protection" agency and the complete lack of oversight. The Church and its agents also hold a lot of blame. Not all were bad and some orders had absolutely nothing to do with any of it. The wholesale attribution of guilt to the Church and all of society risks ignoring any type of context and damning generations who, probably in a lot of ways, did no more than we do in living our lives, the best they could, but really didn't know any better. 21st century hindsight has taught us many things are wrong but it should not exclude the power of context to offer explanations.

Bruce Arnold's time would be better spent exhorting the orders to give up the culprits where they still live and demanding that they spend the rest of their time and money on helping those who suffered, instead of headlines that tap into the perfectly justifiable anger that we feel at what happened.

Hillel

There has been an insidious pattern to this whole investigation, caused in no small part by an unwillingness across the board to accept and face up to what happened. First there was denial, then an attempt to portray the victims in a bad light, then the ongoing attempts to minimise the extent of what happened. (After all, this was no 2nd World War Germany or Rwanda.) This is not surprising, there are reputations to protect, the “legacy” of the religious and civil authorities to preserve, potential criminal charges and the ongoing power and influence of the Catholic Church and Irish Political Parties to uphold. More than that, recognising the true extent of the outrage is to draw into question the legitimacy of the post-independence political system and the ongoing collusion between church and state. That collusion continues to this day and is embedded to an extent many do not realise.


It is difficult for most of us to acknowledge the full extent of the cruelty and corruption and the very heart of Irish political and church life. To do so, forces all of us to accept that we too played our part in the gulag. For some, that means stripping away years of self-denial of the abuse they too suffered. It can damage carefully reconstructed pictures of childhood, made easier through the prism of time. It can tear apart cherished beliefs on religion, faith and the afterlife. For many more of us it means facing up to the reality that we could, and should, have done more - but, we didnt. This is not easy, we all like to apportion blame to the “other guy” and delude ourselves that we are blameless. Not so! Abuse in many institutions, mostly Catholic it must be said, was endemic and was wilfully ignored by us citizens as well as the authorities. Everybody knew somebody who had been maliciously maltreated in one way or another. A friend who once attended the Artane Industrial School, the former inmate of a Magdalene laundry, the classmate who was was savagely beaten by a repressed religious brother or sister.... Yes, we were cowed down, but that only makes our inaction understandable, not acceptable. It is certainly no grounds for suppressing the historical record or avoiding reparative measures, today.


Ah but, that was in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's; all so long ago. Best let it rest. No point in raking over the coals. Not good enough! The democratic deficit at the heart of this scandal still remains. The sweetheart deal on compensation with the religious orders, is but one indication. The lack of general political accountability is endemic and citizens without the means to stand up for themselves are still treated with contempt. Why wouldn't they be, the political establishment is allowed, time and time again, to find scapegoats for their failures and inaction – in the near certain knowledge that they will never be called to account. It is time to send an explicit message that politicians, and other government officials, are not above the law. That they too are open to sanction when they fail to protect citizens through wilful collusion or inaction.

is_that_so

Hillel wrote: »

There has been an insidious pattern to this whole investigation, caused in no small part by an unwillingness across the board to accept and face up to what happened. First there was denial, then an attempt to portray the victims in a bad light, then the ongoing attempts to minimise the extent of what happened. (After all, this was no 2nd World War Germany or Rwanda.) This is not surprising, there are reputations to protect, the “legacy” of the religious and civil authorities to preserve, potential criminal charges and the ongoing power and influence of the Catholic Church and Irish Political Parties to uphold. More than that, recognising the true extent of the outrage is to draw into question the legitimacy of the post-independence political system and the ongoing collusion between church and state. That collusion continues to this day and is embedded to an extent many do not realise.


It is difficult for most of us to acknowledge the full extent of the cruelty and corruption and the very heart of Irish political and church life. To do so, forces all of us to accept that we too played our part in the gulag. For some, that means stripping away years of self-denial of the abuse they too suffered. It can damage carefully reconstructed pictures of childhood, made easier through the prism of time. It can tear apart cherished beliefs on religion, faith and the afterlife. For many more of us it means facing up to the reality that we could, and should, have done more - but, we didnt. This is not easy, we all like to apportion blame to the “other guy” and delude ourselves that we are blameless. Not so! Abuse in many institutions, mostly Catholic it must be said, was endemic and was wilfully ignored by us citizens as well as the authorities. Everybody knew somebody who had been maliciously maltreated in one way or another. A friend who once attended the Artane Industrial School, the former inmate of a Magdalene laundry, the classmate who was was savagely beaten by a repressed religious brother or sister.... Yes, we were cowed down, but that only makes our inaction understandable, not acceptable. It is certainly no grounds for suppressing the historical record or avoiding reparative measures, today.


Ah but, that was in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's; all so long ago. Best let it rest. No point in raking over the coals. Not good enough! The democratic deficit at the heart of this scandal still remains. The sweetheart deal on compensation with the religious orders, is but one indication. The lack of general political accountability is endemic and citizens without the means to stand up for themselves are still treated with contempt. Why wouldn't they be, the political establishment is allowed, time and time again, to find scapegoats for their failures and inaction – in the near certain knowledge that they will never be called to account. It is time to send an explicit message that politicians, and other government officials, are not above the law. That they too are open to sanction when they fail to protect citizens through wilful collusion or inaction.

I don't disagree with your basic case about the abuse although I'll just have to disagree on the whole State-Church collusion. The damage has been done, no amount of mea culpas will undo it but as far as I can see there is now a common desire to help those who were so badly treated.

As regards sanctions, beyond the individuals who can be proved to have perpetrated these crimes what purpose does it serve to other than to feed our anger? Our part in this, IMO is to ensure that all of those who were affected by it are helped in any way they need it so that what remains of their lives is far better than their lost childhoods.

rant_and_rave

sovtek wrote: »

Yes they did!
Do you think with all the beatings that none were beaten to death??? That none starved to death or that none died working in these institutions??? Do you think that people didn't committ suicide because of all the above???
The only question is how many.

Where is the evidence? There has been an in depth enquiry that has compiled hundreds of witness statements and there is more than enough evidence to convict abusers and compensate the abused. But there is no suggestion of murder. Do we need another enquiry? Suicide I am sure you will appreciate is not the same as murder and there is no legal remedy for the kind of proxy killing you suggest.

Nodin

is_that_so wrote: »

As regards sanctions, beyond the individuals who can be proved to have perpetrated these crimes what purpose does it serve to other than to feed our anger?

No, it serves as punishment and warning. Even if it involved only the reputations of those no longer active in public life, it would be a worthy exercise if the names became synonymous with the lowest of the low. That would include every party that could have done something and didn't, and every order.

The Raven.

Hillel wrote: »

There has been an insidious pattern to this whole investigation, caused in no small part by an unwillingness across the board to accept and face up to what happened. First there was denial, then an attempt to portray the victims in a bad light, then the ongoing attempts to minimise the extent of what happened. (After all, this was no 2nd World War Germany or Rwanda.) This is not surprising, there are reputations to protect, the “legacy” of the religious and civil authorities to preserve, potential criminal charges and the ongoing power and influence of the Catholic Church and Irish Political Parties to uphold. More than that, recognising the true extent of the outrage is to draw into question the legitimacy of the post-independence political system and the ongoing collusion between church and state. That collusion continues to this day and is embedded to an extent many do not realise.

Your post was making sense up to this point.

It is difficult for most of us to acknowledge the full extent of the cruelty and corruption and the very heart of Irish political and church life. To do so, forces all of us to accept that we too played our part in the gulag.

Once again the indiscriminate use of the term ‘we’ raises its dubious head to point an indomitable finger of blame at the whole of Irish society. Once more the blame gets shifted from the guilty to the innocent.

For some, that means stripping away years of self-denial of the abuse they too suffered.

Those who have suffered do not forget that suffering. They are extremely unlikely to have to engage in ‘stripping away years of self-denial of the abuse’. That suffering leaves an indelible mark, which is always close to the forefront of their minds, constantly resurfacing throughout their lives.

It can damage carefully reconstructed pictures of childhood, made easier through the prism of time. It can tear apart cherished beliefs on religion, faith and the afterlife.

This is utter nonsense, and highly insulting to the intelligence of most Irish adults.

For many more of us it means facing up to the reality that we could, and should, have done more - but, we didnt. This is not easy, we all like to apportion blame to the “other guy” and delude ourselves that we are blameless. Not so! Abuse in many institutions, mostly Catholic it must be said, was endemic and was wilfully ignored by us citizens as well as the authorities. Everybody knew somebody who had been maliciously maltreated in one way or another. …

Once again this ‘we’, ‘us’, and ‘everybody’. You cannot presume to speak for all of Irish society. You can only speak for yourself and what you literally know to be true. You cannot assume that ‘we all like to apportion blame to the “other guy” and delude ourselves that we are blameless.’ A statement like this is arrogant and presumptuous. If this is how you personally feel, then own up to it, and stop trying to land guilt trips on everyone else.

Yes, we were cowed down, but that only makes our inaction understandable, not acceptable.

The only thing that is unacceptable here is the relentless scourge of religious tyranny. I use the term ‘we’ here to describe my own experience, and that of my peers, of religious physical and mental torture in Catholic day schools. It is highly disturbing and grossly offensive to be accused of unacceptable ‘inaction’ against this regime of cruelty and humiliation, in light of the fact that we were innocent children at the mercy of an all-powerful repressive force, totally beyond our control. We complained, we cried, we shouted, we screamed!! We were silenced. What more do you want? BLOOD :rolleyes:???

We did NOT know about the sexual abuse and extreme violence that went on behind the closed doors of religious institutions. We were never told. The children in these ‘schools’ were locked away from the rest of society, without any opportunity of having their voices heard. The true facts only began to emerge when some courageous victims managed to finally have their stories published in the media.

Ah but, that was in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's; all so long ago. Best let it rest. No point in raking over the coals. Not good enough! The democratic deficit at the heart of this scandal still remains. The sweetheart deal on compensation with the religious orders, is but one indication. The lack of general political accountability is endemic and citizens without the means to stand up for themselves are still treated with contempt. Why wouldn't they be, the political establishment is allowed, time and time again, to find scapegoats for their failures and inaction – in the near certain knowledge that they will never be called to account. It is time to send an explicit message that politicians, and other government officials, are not above the law. That they too are open to sanction when they fail to protect citizens through wilful collusion or inaction.

Finally, back to commonsense again, apart from the first two lines, which I presume are not directed at the government.

sovtek

sovtek wrote: »

Yes they did!
Do you think with all the beatings that none were beaten to death??? That none starved to death or that none died working in these institutions??? Do you think that people didn't committ suicide because of all the above???
The only question is how many.

Just how many? Even then, the numbers involved in the Russian Gulags were massive in comparison to those who were abused by the Irish system. The problem is that people are not comparing like with like. You could take the total population of Ireland, and you still wouldn't have the complete numbers of people who died under Russian oppression. There is no comparison.

sovtek

sovtek wrote: »

It isn't wrong when there is evidence that several Popes knew about it. That means that the Catholic church as an institution is criminal and corrupt. That criminality will flow from top to bottom. If an institution covers up the crimes of the individuals then they become criminals themselves. That institution must then be investigate and those individuals must be held accountable. That is how you prevent it from happening again.

Ok. Think of it this way. Take all the murders that have occurred in Dublin in the last twenty years. There have been quite a few. Now by your reasoning everyone in Dublin is responsible for those murders simply because they have chosen to live in Dublin.

You're seeking to assign blame to every member of the Catholic Church for the actions of a few. There have been thousands of members of the church who have looked after and supported irish people over the decades. Your stance seeks to negate their efforts and paint them all with the same brush. I'm not seeking to avoid the Church's responsibility in this. But I would prefer that people assign responsibility to the actual individuals that were involved whether they were priests, teachers, politicians, Popes, etc. I'm not a big fan of assigning blame to a complete category, like the "Church" or "the Government".

Acacia

donegalfella wrote: »

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I do agree to a certain extent, but you also have to account for the size of Ireland compared to Russia. There was a sizeable amount of the Irish population subject to torture and abuse in the industrial schools.

These institutions were little better than forced labour camps- in fact I read on another thread here that a former resident went on to fight on the Allied side in World War 2, ended up in a Nazi POW camp, and described it as ''heaven'' compared to where he grew up (not exactly the same as Stalin's gulags but you get the idea). That says it all really.

They really were little better than gulags.

Permabear

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Acacia

donegalfella wrote: »

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I meant in comparison to the country's size, there was abuse on a huge scale. I agree with you for the most part, but I do think Arnold isn't too far off the mark by comparing the institutions with gulags. More for how the children were treated rather than the numbers involved, though.

Permabear

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Hillel

Hillel wrote: »

It is difficult for most of us to acknowledge the full extent of the cruelty and corruption and the very heart of Irish political and church life. To do so, forces all of us to accept that we too played our part in the gulag.

The Raven. wrote: »

Once again the indiscriminate use of the term ‘we’ raises its dubious head to point an indomitable finger of blame at the whole of Irish society. Once more the blame gets shifted from the guilty to the innocent.

Yes, I do believe that Irish Society as a whole was to blame for the worst excesses of the past. It has taken this enquiry to get any public acceptance of the scale and intent of what went on. It is simply too easy to blame the religious orders as if they operated in a different society to ours. We did not know the detail, but we certainly knew that there were grounds for substantial concern. Then, when details did start to emerge, there was little public outcry or support for the victims.

The Raven. wrote: »

Those who have suffered do not forget that suffering. They are extremely unlikely to have to engage in ‘stripping away years of self-denial of the abuse’. That suffering leaves an indelible mark, which is always close to the forefront of their minds, constantly resurfacing throughout their lives.

I agree with you and unreservedly withdraw that comment. (It was guided by the increase in counselling requests, following the publication of the abuse report.)

The Raven. wrote: »

The only thing that is unacceptable here is the relentless scourge of religious tyranny. I use the term ‘we’ here to describe my own experience, and that of my peers, of religious physical and mental torture in Catholic day schools. It is highly disturbing and grossly offensive to be accused of unacceptable ‘inaction’ against this regime of cruelty and humiliation, in light of the fact that we were innocent children at the mercy of an all-powerful repressive force, totally beyond our control. We complained, we cried, we shouted, we screamed!! We were silenced. What more do you want? BLOOD ???

Yes, it was religious tyranny, but also state tyranny. People of power and influence, at best, turned their backs and walked away.
Of course children were at the mercy of a sadistic regime. I carry my own demons from my years of hell in Catholic schools. Sadism was rife, and it was not just the clergy and religious orders. But, as an adult I should have demanded action and insisted that the conditions that fostered such a cesspool were addressed. There are many reasons why I didn't, but I cannot claim I didn't know.
But it still goes on, and we can no longer blame the Catholic Church. Hundreds of children have gone missing from HSE facilities in the 2000's. Many are never found and are widely believed to have been trafficked into the sex trade. Where's the public outcry? Where's the demands that heads roll and proper care be provided?

DadaKopf

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'm not so sure about that. It probably has more to do with the lack of concrete information about them. It wasn't until the 1960s when the true extent of the Gulags began to leak out into the Western mainstream and it shocked even the left. What brought the awful Gulag system to popular prominence were Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's novels, particularly One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich. A fantastic novel in how it crafts the gulag as a microcosm of wider Stalinist Russia of the time. But the information about the Gulag system has really only begun emerging since the 1980s.

But this thread is about the Irish case.

rant_and_rave

Deleted User wrote: »

The Catholic Church until the mid 80's held tremendous power in the Republic.

If the population of Eire up to the mid 1980s had been 90% Mormon then I am sure that polygamy would have been legal. The Mormon Church abolished polygamy in 1890 but is still practiced. It was not until 2003 that the Utah Legislature approved a tougher criminal sanction for men who take young girls as their polygamist wives.

The USA has had separation of Church and State and a secular constitution since it's foundation but this does not disbar Religious groups with large amounts of popular support from shaping the law to reflect the values of their own Churches. Twenty six states have voted to ban gay marriage. These states have high numbers of conservative evangelical Christian voters. Conservative societies elect conservative governments who enact conservative laws. The electorate approved the use of corporal punishment in Irish Schools because they believed in the efficacy of corporal punishment. Irish society had Victorian attitudes to sex outside marriage. Sexual imagery was banned. Single mothers were stigmatized and their children were placed in orphanages and industrial schools where many were abused by members of religious orders. The cover up by the Religious who have subsequently proved to be secretive and unaccountable is a separate issue. If the Industrial schools had been run by the State then there may have been minimal or no sex abuse and less corporal punishment but they would still have been very harsh environments.

This is quote is taken from a piece about polygamy in Utah and how the authorities are struggling to deal with it. Maybe we can learn some lessons.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy69.html

Allen adds: "We are in a faith-based environment that holds ancestors in high esteem. To deal with polygamy properly, we have to say that what our ancestors created has led to pretty horrific crimes for us now. How do you resolve that?"

rant_and_rave

The Raven. wrote: »

The only thing that is unacceptable here is the relentless scourge of religious tyranny. I use the term ‘we’ here to describe my own experience, and that of my peers, of religious physical and mental torture in Catholic day schools. It is highly disturbing and grossly offensive to be accused of unacceptable ‘inaction’ against this regime of cruelty and humiliation, in light of the fact that we were innocent children at the mercy of an all-powerful repressive force, totally beyond our control. We complained, we cried, we shouted, we screamed!! We were silenced. What more do you want? BLOOD :rolleyes:???

Raven.... there are thousands of middle aged ex public school boys in Britain who still have physical scars from the thrashings they received from sadistic house masters. Their parents paid thousands for the privilege of having their children beaten. Different times. Different values.

Mr.Micro

donegalfella wrote: »

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I read that book in stages interspersed with lighter reading as it was so grim and in comparison what happened in Ireland was not not even close. Having said that it in no way condones or lessens the grotesque treatment of children by sadistic perverted so called religious brutes who had so much power over these unfortunate children.

Permabear

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Hillel

donegalfella wrote: »

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Mr.Micro wrote: »

I read that book in stages interspersed with lighter reading as it was so grim and in comparison what happened in Ireland was not not even close.

The title of the thread was “Political Accountability for the Irish Gulag”. Why the ongoing attempts to downplay what happened? Anyway, back on topic.....

Assigning political accountability is not a matter of raking over the coals, political point scoring, or plain old fashioned vengence. Rather it is necessary to ensure that politicians never again neglect their responsibilities in so cavalier a fashion.

The Executive Summary to the The Commission Report, states

3. The deferential and submissive attitude of the Department of Education towards the Congregations compromised its ability to carry out its statutory duty of inspection and monitoring of the schools. The Reformatory and Industrial Schools Section of the Department was accorded a low status within the Department and generally saw itself as facilitating the Congregations and the Resident Managers.
6. The system of inspection by the Department of Education was fundamentally flawed and incapable of being effective.

The above would be of concern, were it only a picture from a long past age. Instead, the ongoing failure of the government to protect the vulnerable in society is well documented. Children going missing from care is only one such example. Politicians and public officials have to know that they will be held accountable, including the rigour of the law, where they demonstrably fail to fulfil their duty.

I don't really give a monkeys whether neglect on this scale is due to plain old politicking, laziness, or an entirely improper “deferential and submissive attitude” towards clergy and religious orders. I want the message to go out, loud and clear, that accountability is expected and, where necessary, will be enforced. Am I alone in Boards with this view??

rant_and_rave

Hillel wrote: »

I don't really give a monkeys whether neglect on this scale is due to plain old politicking, laziness, or an entirely improper “deferential and submissive attitude” towards clergy and religious orders. I want the message to go out, loud and clear, that accountability is expected and, where necessary, will be enforced. Am I alone in Boards with this view??

No. I and most others would agree with this. We can start by putting the abusers on trial. The Courts can request documents from the relevant Government departments which will prove or disprove a cover up by the State.

Mr.Micro

Hillel wrote: »

The title of the thread was “Political Accountability for the Irish Gulag”. Why the ongoing attempts to downplay what happened? Anyway, back on topic.....

you forgot to quote the rest of my post which puts my whole post in context

Having said that it in no way condones or lessens the grotesque treatment of children by sadistic perverted so called religious brutes who had so much power over these unfortunate children.

Hillel wrote: »

I don't really give a monkeys whether neglect on this scale is due to plain old politicking, laziness, or an entirely improper “deferential and submissive attitude” towards clergy and religious orders. I want the message to go out, loud and clear, that accountability is expected and, where necessary, will be enforced. Am I alone in Boards with this view??

Like that is going to happen overnight in Ireland? Not weeks ago abuse of mentally ill people in terrible conditions and Leas cross a few years ago. I wont hold my breath for accountability in Ireland.

Hillel

Hillel wrote: »

I don't really give a monkeys whether neglect on this scale is due to plain old politicking, laziness, or an entirely improper “deferential and submissive attitude” towards clergy and religious orders. I want the message to go out, loud and clear, that accountability is expected and, where necessary, will be enforced. Am I alone in Boards with this view??

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Like that is going to happen overnight in Ireland? Not weeks ago abuse of mentally ill people in terrible conditions and Leas cross a few years ago. I wont hold my breath for accountability in Ireland.

Leas Cross, is just another example of the state failing its citizens. I have family experiences, equally traumatic. Accountability will only happen if there is a groundswell of public opinion to make it happen. So far most of the emphasis has been on the perpetuators, nursing home owners, Catholic Church, lay teachers, whatever. The state was/is responsibile for creating the conditions where abuse could fester with relative impunity. One, or more, ministers in the dock would concentrate minds wonderfully.

Mr.Micro

Hillel wrote: »

Leas Cross, is just another example of the state failing its citizens. I have family experiences, equally traumatic. Accountability will only happen if there is a groundswell of public opinion to make it happen. So far most of the emphasis has been on the perpetuators, nursing home owners, Catholic Church, lay teachers, whatever. The state was/is responsibile for creating the conditions where abuse could fester with relative impunity. One, or more, ministers in the dock would concentrate minds wonderfully.

I agree. There has been some legislation at least to protect old people in homes and more inspections and some laid down care standards. Any legislation is only effective if it is policed and enforced and breaches prosecuted properly.

Acacia

donegalfella wrote: »

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I will certainly have a look for that book you recommended. I suppose because the Holocaust has received so much media attention over the past fifty years, people associate it with the highest forms of cruelty and inhumanity and not many people would be as familiar with gulags. In school, for example, we were not told much more than they were forced labor camps (which is where the association with the industrial schools comes in, in my mind anyway).

Fluffybums

The Findings of the Ryan Commission are truely horrifying in what was supposed to be a civilised christian country. The ISPCC, Government and Guards all allowed it to go on. However the results were hardly that surprising - I read the God Squad at least 10 years ago and that detailed the experiences of one inmate. I find it difficult to believe that both parties involved in the compensation deal did not know what had happened, the government guy may not have known the full scale but the CORI representatives almost certainly did (the executive summary indicates that there had been several reports over the years). The report did not cover the Magdelane Laudries, is there one due on that or has that already been done?

What I find amazing is that Louise O'Keefe lost her case because the department of education is NOT responsible for what goes on in schools. Does anyone else find this disturbing?
Who is responsible for what goes on in schools (90% of which are still under the patronage of the church of Rome)?
As parents need insurance for each child attending school - no one acts in loco parentis, dose that mean that while the children are at school the parents are responsible for what happens despite their absence? In which case, can a school object if a parent takes that responsibility seriously and insists on staying with the child during the school day? After all, it is illegal to leave a child under 14(?) alone in the house in the absence of a responsible adult.

Hillel

Fluffybums wrote: »

What I find amazing is that Louise O'Keefe lost her case because the department of education is NOT responsible for what goes on in schools. Does anyone else find this disturbing?
Who is responsible for what goes on in schools

I find it shameful and disturbing.

The government has devolved responsibility for schools to local Boards of Management. However, many members of these boards are enthusiastic amateurs with limited management or educational experience. In my opinion, the main function of BOM's, as currently constituted, is to act as a buffer between the Dept of Education and parents/teachers/pupils. They have full legal responsibility, but limited real power. Teachers pay and conditions are centrally negotiated while education standards are the responsibility of the Dept of Ed.

Fluffybums

Hillel, thanks for the information I assume that the boards of management are largely composed of members of the public trying to do the right thing. If so Louise O'Keefe probably didn't sue them as they would end up loosing their homes for meerly being consciencious members of the public.

All seems a little like amateur night to me.

Hillel

Fluffybums wrote: »

Hillel, thanks for the information I assume that the boards of management are largely composed of members of the public trying to do the right thing. If so Louise O'Keefe probably didn't sue them as they would end up loosing their homes for meerly being consciencious members of the public.

All seems a little like amateur night to me.

The typical composition of the board of management, for schools with more than one teacher, is

• Two direct nominees of the patron
• Two parents of children enrolled in the school (one mother and one father) elected by the parents
• The principal
• One other teacher elected by the teaching staff.
• Two extra members agreed by the representatives of the patron, teachers and parents.Further Information:
  http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/education/primary-and-post-primary-education/going-to-primary-school/boards-of-management
  and http://www.into.ie/ROI/SchoolAdministration/BoardsOfManagement/
  and http://www.cspa.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51:boards-of-management&catid=31:general&Itemid=46

My point was that the composition of BOM's is more to do with having the various stakeholders represented, rather than ensuring that the board has the necessary mix of competencies to ensure that the various legal, ethical, and organisational issues that arise can be adequately dealt with. Teachers rarely have such a background, parents likewise, other than by sheer chance. Patron nominees tend to be focused primarily on the ethos of the school and are often from the educational or religious sector.
The two "extra members" are often selected for their professional experience. However, because all positions are voluntary, there is no guarantee that any member will have appropriate background, qualifications, or experience.

The BOM has responsibility for child protection. From an INTO document...

(d) Child Protection Guidelines
Boards of Management have a particularly important role in providing their pupils with high
standards of care in order to promote their well-being and protect them from harm. School
personnel are especially well placed to observe changes in behaviour or outward signs of
difficulties which could cause concern in relation to child protection.

The Board of Management would be sued as an entity.