Too many students?

Amnesiac_ie

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0526/1224247400489.html

UCD STUDENTS GET A ROYAL PLACEMENT

THE ROYAL Hospital Donnybrook (RHD) has become a teaching hospital affiliated to UCD’s medical school. The first of 50 UCD medical students began their clinical placement in the RHD last month.

The students are getting practical, hands-on experience of medicine for the elderly under the supervision of Dr Danielle Ní Chróinín, a UCD lecturer in geriatric medicine.

Currently, the students are involved in tutorials, ward-rounds, attendance at multidisciplinary meetings, and participation in care settings ranging from the day hospital to inpatient care.

Dr Ní Chróinín said this clinical placement was taking place in the students’ penultimate or final year of medical school and was part of the “Medicine in the Community” programme which had been developed to focus on the provision of care in the community or in local hospitals such as the RHD.
“As the country’s population ages, the attendant changes in healthcare requirements need to be addressed at an educational level. The RHD will provide students with direct experience of medicine for the elderly, allowing them to learn how to effectively treat the patient demographic of tomorrow,” Dr Ní Chróinín said.

She praised the involvement of the hospital and the consultant geriatricians of St Vincent’s Hospital in making the transition to a teaching hospital.

“This programme recognises both the increasing importance of primary care in today’s healthcare system, and the specialist expertise of physicians in medicine for the elderly in treating, rehabilitating and offering continuing care to older persons,” she said.

The hospital provides rehabilitation, complex extended care and respite services to adults with physical and neuro-disability and to older people in about 200 inpatient beds and also has a 25-place day hospital.
The RHD claims to be the oldest voluntary hospital in either Britain or Ireland, and specialises in care for the elderly.

RHD chief executive Graham Knowles said: “This affiliation to UCD will further strengthen the capacity and capability of the hospital and is also a significant development in the history of the RHD.”

A "royal placement" or is UCD simply struggling to place their increased numbers of medical students? The Dublin hospital where I work has seen a massive increase in medical student numbers over the past number of years and it feels like the student experience is suffering as a result. Their are far too many students turning up to what used to be small group bedside tutorials. Instead of having a couple of third meds and a couple of final meds attached to each team per week there is now a situation where 12+ students arrive on Monday expecting to join a team of four NCHDs! It's simply not practical and students are missing out on being really "attached" to the service.

Is this a consequence of poor planning? Have the medical schools increased student numbers without giving due attention to the logistics of placement? I understand UL students will spend 50% of their clinical attachments in primary care as opposed to traditional hospital placements. Maybe this is a good thing, as many of us spent many hours gaining little from being ignored on the ward in the first place?

Just throwing both sides of the argument out there. Interested to hear what other people think.

drzhivago

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

A "royal placement" or is UCD simply struggling to place their increased numbers of medical students? The Dublin hospital where I work has seen a massive increase in medical student numbers over the past number of years and it feels like the student experience is suffering as a result. Their are far too many students turning up to what used to be small group bedside tutorials. Instead of having a couple of third meds and a couple of final meds attached to each team per week there is now a situation where 12+ students arrive on Monday expecting to join a team of four NCHDs! It's simply not practical and students are missing out on being really "attached" to the service.

Is this a consequence of poor planning? Have the medical schools increased student numbers without giving due attention to the logistics of placement? I understand UL students will spend 50% of their clinical attachments in primary care as opposed to traditional hospital placements. Maybe this is a good thing, as many of us spent many hours gaining little from being ignored on the ward in the first place?

Just throwing both sides of the argument out there. Interested to hear what other people think.

Very poor planning and just the start of it

On the other hand delighted to see exposure for Royal Hospital, great institution and good to see students there

Consider this

• Currently 350 or so irish grads per year, moving to 750 over next 10 years with additional graduate entrants and also additional Undergrads
• Junior docs do most teaching for students
• junior docs hours to come down to 48 in 6 weeks
• rotas of 6 people will change so that at max only 3 and usually 2 of the 6 will be on site during the day periods when students expect to be taught
• the 2 or 3 out of 6 NCHDs will be expected to do work previously done by 5 of the 6 with respect to clinics, surgery sessions, conferences ward rounds etc
• If hospitals want an addiitonal consultant to provide service they will have to lsoe 2 junior docs which will only compund the hours issue further

We are heading for hell in a handbag at this rate

Traumadoc

I fear it will have the same results as when the number of physiotherapist graduates was increased.
http://www.irishjobs.ie/ForumWW/WWIndividualArticle.aspx?ParentID=67&CID=71&ForumTypeID=2799

drzhivago

Traumadoc wrote: »

I fear it will have the same results as when the number of physiotherapist graduates was increased.
http://www.irishjobs.ie/ForumWW/WWIndividualArticle.aspx?ParentID=67&CID=71&ForumTypeID=2799

and all that arose from a report a number of years ago that there were not enough therapists over a summer they doubled the number of physio students/radiography students and OT students

The first year had some luck getting jobs, second year slightly less, 3rd year of additional numbers most emigrated now we are on the 4th year or so of the truly increased numbers and there is no hope for them

The HSE has no jobs for them and yet they were the prime employer for all these sectors, the lack of integrated planning is shocking

When the HSE gets off its glutonous behind and decides that many of these grades are actually required they will find it is too late as many of them will have emigrated to put food on their plates and many will find taht they are welcomed in countries like Australia and find the way of life far more pleasing than here at present

Vorsprung

NCHDs won't be working 48 hours a week from July (in Dublin anyway) because the major teaching hospitals are struggling to fill all their SHO posts! Loads of 2 year/1 year GPT posts, a few in SVUH and there's a scattering of jobs available in Michael's, Loughlinstown.

If it's bad this year, wait until people hear the stories of even worse working conditions that I assume with be doing the rounds from August onwards.

flerb22

im a 3rd med at the moment (4th if the exams i just did go my way) - and i have to praise the NCHDs. everything clinical that is worth learning has been taught to me by these guys.

however - remember - too many undergrads now means more NCHDs in 5 years time (edit: as long as the HSE finances more doctors like they should but "can't" ). as long as we dont all realise the HSE has fecked us and move to australia.

Svalbard

Just wondering, with the recent increase in med student numbers, has the sex breakdown changed?

Are women still greatly outnumbering men, or is there more equality among the post-grads?

Also, how many of the new places are for Irish students?