Speaking in Tongues

Mickeroo

Saw this mentioned on the confirmation thread and PDN suggested a thread so I thought what the hey.

I was actually surprised when PDN said it happens regularly at his church. Whats everyones opinion of this?

It never happened when i used to go to mass thats for sure. I mean come on,fair enough the people may be overwhelmed with euphoria but it's just gibberish right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whpHwKlM_8M

PDN

Well that was a right waste of 3 minutes and 48 seconds watching a bunch of whooping and hollering in order to catch what might have been a second or two of someone mumbling in tongues at the end.

According to Acts Chapter Two the 120 believers in the Upper Room on the Day of Pentecost spoke in tongues when they were filled with the Holy Spirit. It is unclear whether this was the speaking of actual languages (possible) or the speaking of unknown languages which God enabled others to understand (more probable).

Pentecostal Christians practice speaking in tongues in two ways:
a) In their private prayer at home. This is where, not being sure of what exactly to pray, the Holy Spirit Himself prays through the believer. This is praying in tongues - where the words are directed towards God.
b) In public worship. This is where one believer speaks a message in an unknown language, and then someone else interprets that message into English. This is a message in tongues - where the words are directed to the Church.

Most (but not all) Pentecostals also believe that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence that someone has been filled with the Holy Spirit (as on the Day of Pentecost and several other occasions in the New Testament). The most important evidence of being filled with the Spirit is sharing the Gospel with others - but speaking in tongues shares a similar function to the 'Power On' light on a computer that let's you know the power is getting through.

In my church you are much more likely to hear people praying in English, Russian, Polish, French, Yoruba, Filipino, Shona, Swahili etc. than in tongues, but it does happen sometimes - usually when we are praying for people to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

homer911

This is something I am in two minds about (no pun intended). I personally know and have heard people speaking in tongues. Its something I have prayed about myself and ultimately concluded that it was not something God wanted me to have - He has given me other gifts that I put to good use.

What gets speaking in tongues bad wrap is its inappropriate use - whenever someone speaks in tongues, there should always be someone there to interpret - this does not always seem to be the case. Even the Devil can speak in tongues!

As a gift, I feel it is somehow very exclusive (or excluding) in that a Church which features this as a key element of worship is often too intimidating for visitors or enquirers and therefore a hindrance to spreading the word of God.

Personally, I also feel that Christians with a weaker faith use this gift as a crutch - how much stronger is the faith of a Christian who has not received this gift yet still believes?

I'm sure there are plenty out there with contrary opinions on one aspect or another of this..

Mickeroo

Thanks for that

Apologies about the video, i didnt have time to go looking for a better one

I would imagine this is something that is met with a lot of scepticism even within religious circles though?

It's certainly something depicted more as occuring in smaller more extreme denominations of the church rather than the likes of the RCC or CoI.

robindch

Mickeroo wrote: »

Whats everyones opinion of this?

My opinion is that it's people hotwiring their vocal cords in a manner that they think appears random. Other religions have similar rites and there seems to be nothing special about the free-form, improvisatory ululation that's referred to as "speaking in tongues" by its practitioners who appear to be drawn mostly from the fringes of the evangelical movement.

BTW, at a religious gig some years back, I was in a room with perhaps a thousand other people, many of them "speaking in tongues" at the top of their voices, writhing on the ground, undergoing the Toronto Blessing and so on.

It can be a bit disturbing if you've never seen it before.

darjeeling

Mickeroo wrote: »

Saw this mentioned on the confirmation thread and PDN suggested a thread so I thought what the hey.

I was actually surprised when PDN said it happens regularly at his church. Whats everyones opinion of this?

It never happened when i used to go to mass thats for sure. I mean come on,fair enough the people may be overwhelmed with euphoria but it's just gibberish right?

Euphoria or gibberish, I think there's always been a side to religion in which people seek out spiritual (and often substance-assisted) intoxication. It's there in the Dionysian mysteries, in all sorts of shamanic religions past and present, and - I think - in some of the charismatic variants of Christianity, and Pentecostalism.

.

JimiTime

I've never witnessed tongues. The only time I've seen a 'claim' of tongues is on video. Its usually just gibberish, and quite clearly so. The repeating of a phrase or some such. Alot of the time the preacher whips the audience into a frenzy in the footage I've seen. Thats not to say I don't believe it happens. There is certainly quite clear scriptural basis for it, I've just never seen a genuine case in the video footage I've seen.

keano_afc

Would I be right in presuming that speaking in tongues is only scriptural if there is somebody there to interpret it?

ozzirt

It would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic. Sorry but it just came out that way, I guess I must be speaking in tongues.

prinz

robindch wrote: »

It can be a bit disturbing if you've never seen it before.

+1

Have been told that people I know are part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, and do the whole speaking in tongues thing, tbh the though of it disturbs me on some level. I wouldn't want to attend any such event.

JimiTime

prinz wrote: »

+1

Have been told that people I know are part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, and do the whole speaking in tongues thing, tbh the though of it disturbs me on some level. I wouldn't want to attend any such event.

I would if it was genuine. However, these 'frenzy' services are indeed quite disturbing. I remember that C4 documentary 'Jesus Camp' where they were pretending to be praying in tongues. Kids crying etc. It looked more like some Voodoo ritual less the chickens blood. Unfortunately, this type of carry on obviously muddy's the water for any possible authentic cases. Then again, people who are anti-christian are hardly going to believe real tongues neither. Personally, I'd just be vigilant and sceptical.

Mickeroo

JimiTime wrote: »

I would if it was genuine. However, these 'frenzy' services are indeed quite disturbing. I remember that C4 documentary 'Jesus Camp' where they were pretending to be praying in tongues. Kids crying etc. It looked more like some Voodoo ritual less the chickens blood. Unfortunately, this type of carry on obviously muddy's the water for any possible authentic cases. Then again, people who are anti-christian are hardly going to believe real tongues neither. Personally, I'd just be vigilant and sceptical.

Yea everytime I ever seen it on tv or anywhere else its always these super disturbing gibberish fests. It certainly serves to distance most people from whats going on.

8kvscdpglqnyr4

This clip is only 17 seconds ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiSta--f_Lc

Coriolanus

Forgive the ignorance, but in people's personal experience, are the tongue's in question recognisable or are we talking about something dicretely sectioned off from human language, a divine tongue or something?
Or is it the name put to a behaviour, rather than the above?

It's the first time I've come across a serious discussion of it and kind of presumed previuously it was someone manifesting knowledge of latin, when they've never been taught it etc.

PDN

Mickeroo wrote: »

Thanks for that

Apologies about the video, i didnt have time to go looking for a better one

I would imagine this is something that is met with a lot of scepticism even within religious circles though?

It's certainly something depicted more as occuring in smaller more extreme denominations of the church rather than the likes of the RCC or CoI.

Actually, there are about 119 million Roman Catholics who, as part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement, either speak in tongues or profess to believe in the practice. About 15% of Church of England members (in the UK) are charismatics. The percentage of charismatic Catholics and Anglicans tends to be higher in the places where those denominations are growing (eg Nigeria) and lower where those denominations are declining (eg western Europe).

My own denomination is fairly small (just 7 million members), but the Assemblies of God (another Pentecostal denomination) has 60 million members - making it the 4th biggest denomination in the world.

Mickeroo

Katelyn Hundreds Sunblock wrote: »

This clip is only 17 seconds ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiSta--f_Lc

I was trying to find that one, i saw it before in Religulous.

Mickeroo

Nevore wrote: »

Forgive the ignorance, but in people's personal experience, are the tongue's in question recognisable or are we talking about something dicretely sectioned off from human language, a divine tongue or something?
Or is it the name put to a behaviour, rather than the above?

It's the first time I've come across a serious discussion of it and kind of presumed previuously it was someone manifesting knowledge of latin, when they've never been taught it etc.

As far as i can tell it's something seperate from human language. Hence the whole gibberish thing, but yeah i have heard about the whole speaking dead languages they couldnt possibly know thing before, always sounded like a bit of an urban myth to me, like something out of The Exorcist.

Coriolanus

Ah, gotcha. Is the gibberish generally claimed to be something though?

Mickeroo

Nevore wrote: »

Ah, gotcha. Is the gibberish generally claimed to be something though?

not sure, I'd imagine the people who induce it would think so but apart from that I wouldn't know.

I think PDN's post gives a pretty good explanation of what it's supposed to be in the first reply on this thread.

JimiTime

Mickeroo wrote: »

not sure, I'd imagine the people who induce it would think so but apart from that......

I think I recall a story PDN told about a guy who visited a church he was attending. A guy stood up and spoke in tongues. No-one knew what he said, but at the end of the service, the new-comer, who was going to leave or something (the specifics escape me), said, I stayed when that guy (The tongues fella) start talking about me.

darjeeling

Nevore wrote: »

Ah, gotcha. Is the gibberish generally claimed to be something though?

I don't know if it is or not. I do think these kinds of ritual offer a way to break out of the everyday and the rational, thereby attaining a 'spiritual' state. Trying to achieve any kind of doctrinally-informed analytical understanding of the ways in which people reach this state is probably to miss the point.

stevejazzx

I saw this thread title and went looking for an old article I had read on this which I thought showed that brain imaging demonstrated the thing to be pretty much what I had labelled it as: people fooling themselves or in some cases just plain play acting, however, to my surprise the scans actually produced results which corroborated the acts as genuine.

There you go - can't win 'em all...!


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html

Splendour

keano_afc wrote: »

Would I be right in presuming that speaking in tongues is only scriptural if there is somebody there to interpret it?

Yes, as PDN has pointed out, the message that comes from tongues must be translated into a language people can understand. Otherwise, what would be the point of it? On that note PDN, can you give us an example of what kind of message has been received in your church through tongues?

I attended a church for a few months where every sunday, the entire congregation was 'overcome' by the Holy Spirit and babbled in tongues -everyone that is except muggins here . I have to say, when I first attended I wondered why it didn't happen to me, then as I got a bit wiser I realised they were all a bit cookie. ( I didn't know a that time that there was meant to be interpretation).

I know there are plenty of people who have prayed to receive the gift of tongues, but I can honestly say I've never given it a second thought.

prinz

Splendour wrote: »

Yes, as PDN has pointed out, the message that comes from tongues must be translated into a language people can understand. Otherwise, what would be the point of it?

As the people aren't speaking (as I understand it) any actually discernable language then how can any message be verified as correctly translated? Basically any meaning whatsoever could be applied to it by a 'translator', further convincing the person speaking in tongues, that they are in fact being possessed, and not merely expressing themselves in guttural and incoherent 'language'.

darjeeling

stevejazzx wrote: »

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html

That's rather fascinating - that the altered state of mind induced by an ecstatic religious practice can be seen at the level of brain activity. I rather like this quote from the paper:

Newberg et al. wrote:

Originally, it was thought that glossolalia [(speaking in tongues)] was related to some form of psychopathology by the biomedical community

I can picture all these terribly rational scientific types scratching their heads whilst watching their generation's version of Youtube vids and asking, "Are these people mad?" Perhaps unsurprisingly, the references cited as beginning to overturn this view date from the late '60s and early '70s, when it began to be more widely recognised that people just like to get completely out of it once in a while.

PDN

Splendour wrote: »

Yes, as PDN has pointed out, the message that comes from tongues must be translated into a language people can understand. Otherwise, what would be the point of it? On that note PDN, can you give us an example of what kind of message has been received in your church through tongues?

Two or three years ago someone brought a message in tongues warning us not to put our trust in bricks and mortar because the nation's greed was going to overeach itself. I wish we had listened better!

I attended a church for a few months where every sunday, the entire congregation was 'overcome' by the Holy Spirit and babbled in tongues -everyone that is except muggins here . I have to say, when I first attended I wondered why it didn't happen to me, then as I got a bit wiser I realised they were all a bit cookie. ( I didn't know a that time that there was meant to be interpretation).

I can't imagine staying there for a few months. One week of that and I would have been out of there and not going back.

Splendour

PDN wrote: »

I can't imagine staying there for a few months. One week of that and I would have been out of there and not going back.

I was young and searching, and the music was great... :P

homer911

It wasnt David McWilliams was it PDN?

(Sorry, couldnt resist!)

Splendour

PDN wrote: »

Two or three years ago someone brought a message in tongues warning us not to put our trust in bricks and mortar because the nation's greed was going to overeach itself. I wish we had listened better!

Wow! That's quite a profound message. Pity you didn't have Joseph in your congregation to explain it better!

PDN

Splendour wrote: »

Wow! That's quite a profound message. Pity you didn't have Joseph in your congregation to explain it better!

Maybe, after we'd just spent 2 million euro on a building, it wasn't a message we wanted to hear.

Splendour

prinz wrote: »

As the people aren't speaking (as I understand it) any actually discernable language then how can any message be verified as correctly translated? Basically any meaning whatsoever could be applied to it by a 'translator', further convincing the person speaking in tongues, that they are in fact being possessed, and not merely expressing themselves in guttural and incoherent 'language'.

I am tad bit confused here prinz. Do you mean that the translator could make up stuff? I'm sure they could if they aren't gifted by God to be a translator. I imagine this happens quite alot in churches.

prinz

Splendour wrote: »

I am tad bit confused here prinz. Do you mean that the translator could make up stuff? I'm sure they could if they aren't gifted by God to be a translator. I imagine this happens quite alot in churches.

Yes. I am just wondering how it works. Does person A get possessed by the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues, and person B gets simultaneously possessed to enable them to understand and translate person A?

Or do the translators know instinctively what the tongues mean? Is there one appointed translator, or could anyone just raise their hand and say they understood what person A was saying? Is there anyway of verifying any of this? Has anyone been verified to be speaking an actual language which they had no knowledge of?

I remember reading accounts of people recovering from comas and/or head injuries with the ability to speak in a language they had previously no knowledge of. It's all odd.

I thought when tongues were mentioned in the Bible, that it referred to an ability to preach the news of Jesus in languages which the recipients did not already speak, and it did not refer to random sounds strung together, but rather an actual language.

I guess what I am wondering is, has anyone speaking in tongues,actually been speaking in a modern earthly language, of which they had no prior knowledge, or is it always more or less incoherent 'otherwordly' sounds/words?

The Mad Hatter

PDN wrote: »

Two or three years ago someone brought a message in tongues warning us not to put our trust in bricks and mortar because the nation's greed was going to overeach itself. I wish we had listened better!

Pfft. I could have told you that.

Splendour

prinz wrote: »

Yes. I am just wondering how it works. Does person A get possessed by the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues, and person B gets simultaneously possessed to enable them to understand and translate person A?

Or do the translators know instinctively what the tongues mean? Is there one appointed translator, or could anyone just raise their hand and say they understood what person A was saying? Is there anyway of verifying any of this? Has anyone been verified to be speaking an actual language which they had no knowledge of?

I remember reading accounts of people recovering from comas and/or head injuries with the ability to speak in a language they had previously no knowledge of. It's all odd.

I thought when tongues were mentioned in the Bible, that it referred to an ability to preach the news of Jesus in languages which the recipients did not already speak, and it did not refer to random sounds strung together, but rather an actual language.

I guess what I am wondering is, has anyone speaking in tongues,actually been speaking in a modern earthly language, of which they had no prior knowledge, or is it always more or less incoherent 'otherwordly' sounds/words?

Tbh prinz I'm not too sure exactly how interpretation happens as I've never been a witness to it. I've reaed in the bible that tongues have to be interpreted. Perhaps PDN might chime in with his tuppence worth at some stage...

PDN

prinz wrote: »

Yes. I am just wondering how it works. Does person A get possessed by the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues, and person B gets simultaneously possessed to enable them to understand and translate person A?

Or do the translators know instinctively what the tongues mean? Is there one appointed translator, or could anyone just raise their hand and say they understood what person A was saying? Is there anyway of verifying any of this? Has anyone been verified to be speaking an actual language which they had no knowledge of?

In 1 Corinthians two separate gifts are listed - speaking in tongues & interpreting a message in tongues. Usually one person would move in one gift, and then a second person in the other gift.

I don't see how anyone could verify that an interpretation is correct. Leaders should know the character of the people moving in both gifts, and they should 'test' the message to ensure it is consistent with Scripture.

I have heard various people testify that they heard a message in tongues that was actualy in their native tongue.

I thought when tongues were mentioned in the Bible, that it referred to an ability to preach the news of Jesus in languages which the recipients did not already speak, and it did not refer to random sounds strung together, but rather an actual language.

I don't believe it refers to random sounds strung together - although I have heard languages in some countries that I've visited that sounded like that.

antiskeptic

robindch wrote: »

My opinion is that it's people hotwiring their vocal cords in a manner that they think appears random.

+1

I became somewhat more convinced of same when at a service in which lots of folk were engaging in "tongues" and the man in front of me (standing, eyes closed, both hands raised heavenward ... and prattling away) opened one eye and proceeded to look around to observe what was happening around the hall.

His not appearing all that convinced led me to suppose I shouldn't be.

I've heard plenty of tongues but never once an interpretation. Perhaps there is something in it somewhere along the line - but in the main; if it looks false, smells falsh, tastes false ...

antiskeptic

Splendour wrote: »

I am tad bit confused here prinz. Do you mean that the translator could make up stuff? I'm sure they could if they aren't gifted by God to be a translator. I imagine this happens quite alot in churches.

I'm reminded of an amusing (and somewhat related) story in which a particular churchs service was occasionally accompanied by spontaneous prophecy - heralded by the congregation member standing up an announcing: "Thus sayeth the Lord.." followed by the prophetic Word.

The church was going through a period of discord, with different camps wanting the church to go different directions. During one service, someone stood up and announced: "Thus sayeth the Lord..." proceeding on to prophesy about the direction the church should go in.

When they sat down, another member stood up and announced "Thus sayeth the Lord. That wasn't Me!"