Newgate Centre

fricatus

The Newgate Centre got the final go-ahead in November and work was due to begin in March.

I haven't seen anything happening yet - more than likely because the banks don't want to give a penny out for commercial property at the moment.

Anyone got any idea what's happening?

foxylad

i hear its being shelved
because of the banks
and lack of anchor tenants

merlante

foxylad wrote: »

i hear its being shelved
because of the banks
and lack of anchor tenants

Who said that? Sounds like one of the usual willfully pessimistic rumours we love to cultivate in Waterford.

I think I read that it wasn't due to start until the third quarter anyway.

It will go ahead sooner or later. Even in these times, there is money to made offering retail space in Waterford, and it will take a couple of years to build anyway. The banks will find money for something like this.

mike65

Well its true the banks are flush and the economy is bouncing along right now.

Sully

merlante wrote: »

Who said that? Sounds like one of the usual willfully pessimistic rumours we love to cultivate in Waterford.

foxylad usually has strong connections, part of the chamber of commerce I believe and part of that programme to study footfall in Waterford.

It will go ahead sooner or later. Even in these times, there is money to made offering retail space in Waterford, and it will take a couple of years to build anyway. The banks will find money for something like this.

Id have assumed such a development would be harder to get money for myself.

gaulsmillls

I hope they go ahead and build the shopping centre the town needs something new. it would create lots of employment.
It might bring a lot of people into the town from all over.

foxylad

im afraid its a bit too late -- newgate st centre will not be happening in the forseeable future--
a total shame
and shame on Mr McCann and certain trade untion who heald up a great project

sorry to be so negative
but all these objections are killing our city centre!!!!

Stan Nangle

foxylad wrote: »

im afraid its a bit too late -- newgate st centre will not be happening in the forseeable future--
a total shame
and shame on Mr McCann and certain trade untion who heald up a great project

sorry to be so negative
but all these objections are killing our city centre!!!!

The shame lies with the City Planners who didn't do their job properly.

If they didn't keep screwing up - some say through incompetence, others see a different motive - then Mr McCann would never have gotten so much traction.

Why do people keep blaming the whistleblower when the people who actually caused the problem are still being paid very big salaries by the taxpayer?


We elect the Councillors. The Councillors vote through the City Development plan. The City Planners (our employees) are supposed to only grant Planning Permission to developments that meet the requirements set out in the City Development Plan.

In Waterford City the Planners "tend not to implement the Development Plan".


Then you wonder why their Planning Permissions keep getting appealed to An BP?

Lets start addressing the real problem, not the symptom. Otherwise it will continue to fester.

foxylad

i have recently applied for planning

mr mccann objected -says its a moral issue and wants to keep the city centre as it is
2 politician objected ---
its election time and needed airplay
on wlr - we stated if this does not go ahead - we could not create the planned 11 jobs
the politicians backed off

we got planning

not we know McCann is going to appeal to ABP ---

THE COUNCIL HAVE NO POWERS ---
HE CARRIES ALL THE CARDS

one man is destroying our city - end of story

Bards

Stan Nangle wrote: »

The shame lies with the City Planners who didn't do their job properly.

If they didn't keep screwing up - some say through incompetence, others see a different motive - then Mr McCann would never have gotten so much traction.

Why do people keep blaming the whistleblower when the people who actually caused the problem are still being paid very big salaries by the taxpayer?


We elect the Councillors. The Councillors vote through the City Development plan. The City Planners (our employees) are supposed to only grant Planning Permission to developments that meet the requirements set out in the City Development Plan.

In Waterford City the Planners "tend not to implement the Development Plan".


Then you wonder why their Planning Permissions keep getting appealed to An BP?

Lets start addressing the real problem, not the symptom. Otherwise it will continue to fester.

STAN, WHy do you keep referring to Mr McCann as a Whistleblower.

Definition of Whistleblower: "One who reveals wrongdoing within an organization to the public or to those in positions of authority"

He does not work in the Planning Office of Waterford CIty Council, therefore he cannot be labelled a "Whistleblower"

however, he is a "Serial Objector".

ziedth

Stan Nangle wrote: »

The shame lies with the City Planners who didn't do their job properly.

If they didn't keep screwing up - some say through incompetence, others see a different motive - then Mr McCann would never have gotten so much traction.

Why do people keep blaming the whistleblower when the people who actually caused the problem are still being paid very big salaries by the taxpayer?


We elect the Councillors. The Cocillors vote through the City Development plan. The City Planners (our employees) are supposed to only grant Planning Permission to developments that meet the requirements set out in the City Development Plan.

In Waterford City the Planners "tend not to implement the Development Plan".


Then you wonder why their Planning Permissions keep getting appealed to An BP?

Lets start addressing the real problem, not the symptom. Otherwise it will continue to fester.

Stan would you kindly define "screwing it up" for me?

Now even though i do appreciate that you come on here and back your corner nothing you can say is going to make me believe with so many people unemployed (myself included) that its not positive for this development to go ahead. If these screw ups are simply not crossing t's and dotting i's then i think that Brendan should find jobs jor those of us who would have been employed for its construction not to mention the actual units themselves (i'm a retail manager).

He is as someone above was putting it killing the city centre and i just don't know how he can sleep at night to be honest.

Surely all our responsibilites at this time is to drag waterford city througn this recession with as little people as possible out of work while putting our own values to the back of our minds.

WhatsTheStorey

Stan Nangle wrote: »

The shame lies with the City Planners who didn't do their job properly.

Absolute nonsense!!!!!

Please clarify that remark as Waterford City Council has a very low percentage of their decisions overturned relative to other local authorities.
We are blessed with a planning department with experienced planners (unlike some of our close neighbors).

Stan Nangle wrote: »

If they didn't keep screwing up - some say through incompetence, others see a different motive - then Mr McCann would never have gotten so much traction.

Waffle waffle waffle!! Keep throwing stones Mr. Nangle at people who cannot come onto this forum to defend themselves! Mr. McCann is an un-elected fundamentalist!

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Why do people keep blaming the whistleblower when the people who actually caused the problem are still being paid very big salaries by the taxpayer?

Who are the people being paid very big salaries by the taxpayer that are causing the problems?? You and other green party membes?? who are we taking about??

Stan Nangle wrote: »

In Waterford City the Planners "tend not to implement the Development Plan".

Please provide evidence of this or stop ranting!

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Then you wonder why their Planning Permissions keep getting appealed to An BP?

The reason applications are getting appealed is that the development of the city do not suit a small minority. Where is the democracy in this???

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Lets start addressing the real problem, not the symptom. Otherwise it will continue to fester.

What do you see the problem as Mr. Nangle?? THE REAL PROBLEM!!!

gscully

It would appear that the problem right now is the sourcing of money to build the Newgate Centre. The banks are refusing to loan that much money to the developers. The banks, through poor allocation of people's savings into underperforming funds, found themselves in difficulty many months ago and the Government decided to bail them out.

You and I are now paying for that bail-out through increased levies and increased tax. In a nutshell, the banks have been bailed out with our money and are now deciding to hold on to it for themselves. No doubt they will stick it in some secured bonds and make a small profit from it. So basically, they are being allowed to rebuild.

The Government should have bailed the banks out on condition that their rules regarding loans for developments such as this be relaxed somewhat to stimulate economic growth and create employment. Instead, the banks have taken the money and put it in their pockets. Shame on the banks, and shame on Fianna Fail and The Greens!

:mad:

merlante

gscully wrote: »

It would appear that the problem right now is the sourcing of money to build the Newgate Centre. The banks are refusing to loan that much money to the developers. The banks, through poor allocation of people's savings into underperforming funds, found themselves in difficulty many months ago and the Government decided to bail them out.

The banks are basically too pessimistic about the outlook for major investments at the moment. What little liquidity they have they want to invest in dead certs, or nothing at all. But banks want to make money and one of the ways they make money is giving big loans to developers to build profitable shopping centres. Once the fear and loathing dies down, and the banks find that they are not haemhorraging money hand over fist, they will invest in fundamentally good investments, which I believe the Newgate centre to be. (The shopping centre in Ferrybank and in many small towns around the country were, however, bad investments, that the banks will probably suffer for, but Newgate would be the largest centre in Waterford and the SE.)

After all, if the banks do not start investing sooner or later then they will remain in their current slump. In another 6 months things may well have moved on and we could well see the start of construction. That is unless the banks are still hiding bad debts!

Does anyone know how long the planning permission lasts for?

pseudo-tech

merlante wrote: »

Does anyone know how long the planning permission lasts for?

Generally, planning lasts for five years, however, this time period can be extended!!

merlante

pseudo-tech wrote: »

Generally, planning lasts for five years, however, this time period can be extended!!

Then I think it will definitely go ahead sooner or later. Perhaps even with different/more investors.

fricatus

pseudo-tech wrote: »

Generally, planning lasts for five years, however, this time period can be extended!!

Well then it will definitely be started before then, because it's not going to take that long for lending to get going again.

No doubt we'll have some eejit objecting when it starts work, saying that the planning permission was given before the credit crunch and the realities are different now and we should all be living in tents and recycling our own urine, and blahdy blahdy blah. Hopefully whoever is in charge will have the common sense to tell such people where to get off.

fricatus

WhatsTheStorey wrote: »

Mr. McCann is an un-elected fundamentalist!

That's the best description of him I've ever heard.

WhatsTheStorey wrote: »

The reason applications are getting appealed is that the development of the city do not suit a small minority. Where is the democracy in this???

Precisely. What it boils down to is one man (or at best a very small minority) calling the shots, and this affecting all of us. Totalitarian regimes work in exactly the same way. It's about as far from democracy as you can get.

Stan Nangle

fricatus wrote: »

That's the best description of him I've ever heard.




Precisely. What it boils down to is one man (or at best a very small minority) calling the shots, and this affecting all of us. Totalitarian regimes work in exactly the same way. It's about as far from democracy as you can get.

It'll be tomorrow before I can come back to address the points made above, but in the meantime, have a ponder on this: If the City Planners had done their job properly, how come An B.P. kept over ruling them?

Never mind who brought the problems to the attention of An B.P., that is a separate issue.


You might also talk to some of the sitting Councillors about the feedback they are getting on the doors about planning matters all over the City.



This witch-hunt against one individual because he had the audacity to make the public aware of what was going on in Waterford City is pathetic.

KingLoser

ABP upheld the decision of the council...

fricatus

Stan Nangle wrote: »

This witch-hunt against one individual because he had the audacity to make the public aware of what was going on in Waterford City is pathetic.

First of all, what witch-hunt? We're on an internet forum expressing opinions, which we're very much entitled to do. We want to see development in our city, subject to the considered opinions of the council's planning department (which is a hell of a lot more professional under pressure of resources than I've ever heard anyone give them credit for). We want to see the jobs that that development will bring. We want good shopping facilities in Waterford because we understand that it is M&S, Brown Thomas, Zara and the rest that will attract people into our city, not our city walls (though we hope some will stick around to look at them).

I've often seen Brendan McCann out and about, usually in Ardkeen shopping centre, and I've never said a word to the man, positive or negative, DESPITE the fact that he is undermining the city where I was born, which I love, and where I intend to stay and raise a family. His actions affect me and all the other citizens of Waterford.

Second of all, we do not need Mr McCann to "make the public aware" of what is happening in Waterford. This is the catch-cry of arrogant, self-appointed busybodies the world over. If he just wanted to make people aware of what was happening, there are three local newspapers and as many national ones that he could contact, not to mention two local radio stations.

You'd swear that the Newgate Centre had been planned in a secret bunker, behind closed doors. It wasn't. It was subject to a planning application that anyone in the city could go and see for themselves. Most people know well how the local planning system works, and those who don't, presumably don't care.

There was never any need therefore for Mr McCann to object to anything, other than if it was being built right on his doorstep, or was going to pollute the air. There are enough people with a real stake in what's happening, who could object if they wanted to. They all have that right, which I'm sorry to say, could well be threatened in the future if development in Waterford and elsewhere continues to be stifled by vexatious use of a law that was designed to protect the truly vulnerable.

pseudo-tech

Stan Nangle wrote: »

If the City Planners had done their job properly, how come An B.P. kept over ruling them?

Every local authority in the country is appealed to An Bord Pleanala. The ethos within the board is to reach a compromise, therefore a lot of permissions receive further conditions. The number of decisions made by Waterford City Council is low relative to other local authorities. You also need to understand that the Board is a centralised decision maker who is not aware of the complexities of every city, therefore you need to question who are the right people to make the decisions????

Stan Nangle wrote: »

It'll
Never mind who brought the problems to the attention of An B.P., that is a separate issue.

Mr. McCann has made more appeals than any other individual in the Country. If the system was fair, every time he failed in the board after holding up a planning decision for nearly a year he should be fined. The problem is he can send off an appeal littered in unattainable idealisms and is not punished but the developer, small business owner, the general community suffer because of one persons ideas. Where is the fairness in that?????

Stan Nangle wrote: »

You might also talk to some of the sitting Councillors about the feedback they are getting on the doors about planning matters all over the City.

Heresay!!!!!!!!!!

Stan Nangle wrote: »

This witch-hunt against one individual because he had the audacity to make the public aware of what was going on in Waterford City is pathetic.

Stop dramatising it and look at both arguments not just the one-sided view!

WhatsTheStorey

fricatus wrote: »

They all have that right, which I'm sorry to say, could well be threatened in the future if development in Waterford and elsewhere continues to be stifled by vexatious use of a law that was designed to protect the truly vulnerable.

There was research done (academic) on planning appeals and the vast majority of them are made by well educated, wealthy people. The research concluded that this was for the purpose of self-protection and not for the general good.

merlante

The point is that McCann is one aggravator of the problem. At least we know that anybody else that may have added to the problem, due to incompetence, at least had their heart in more or less the right place, i.e. KRM want to build the shopping centre to make money, the council want it to make money and for the good of the city, we want it for the shops. McCann, in my view, doesn't want it, not for the reasons he puts on his submissions, but because of his own anti-development agenda. So he is being disingenuous and insincere.

No use saying the council should have done better, the city manager should have been more careful, KRM should have made more effort and listened to people more in their initial proposal. All of these people have probably learned important lessons in hindsight. The point is we all probably would have gotten the centre that most of us wanted by '06/'07 without his interference.

BBM77

WhatsTheStorey wrote: »

Absolute nonsense!!!!!

Please clarify that remark as Waterford City Council has a very low percentage of their decisions overturned relative to other local authorities.
We are blessed with a planning department with experienced planners (unlike some of our close neighbors).

I am afraid that the City Council has serious questions to answer in relation to the KRM planning application. They failed to notice that a whole chapter of the EIS was missing from the application. That caused even longer delays when the inevitable appeals to An BP were made.

This is on public record, make of it what you will.

http://www.waterford-today.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2914&Itemid=10336&ed=275

WhatsTheStorey

Stan Nangle wrote: »

It'll be tomorrow before I can come back to address the points made above, but in the meantime, have a ponder on this: If the City Planners had done their job properly, how come An B.P. kept over ruling them?

Never mind who brought the problems to the attention of An B.P., that is a separate issue.


You might also talk to some of the sitting Councillors about the feedback they are getting on the doors about planning matters all over the City.



This witch-hunt against one individual because he had the audacity to make the public aware of what was going on in Waterford City is pathetic.

I suppose you cannot defend the indefensible!! When a Green Party activist uses (in very loose terms) a flawed system to cripple a City!!!

Sully

Developers said in this weeks N&S that work will begin "this side of Christmas" that its delayed due to negotians with retailers. Expect to see retailers that are in Dundrum Shopping Center locate here.

merlante

Sully wrote: »

Developers said in this weeks N&S that work will begin "this side of Christmas" that its delayed due to negotians with retailers. Expect to see retailers that are in Dundrum Shopping Center locate here.

Good news! Any recent news about Newgate is good news, and shows at least that it hasn't disappeared in a puff of smoke.

WhatsTheStorey

Fantastic news! about time there is some positive news. Hopefully it is the catalyst to others things starting.

Sully

Construction work was due to begin on the Newgate Centre site by early summer but the sod turning has been postponed as the developers continue to tie in tenants for the shopping complex.

Mr. Kickham said he would hope to see work begin on site “this side of Christmas”. He estimates 1,300 jobs would be created within the development and 650 during the construction phase.
Click Here!

He confirmed that talks were ongoing with a number of international and local retailers and while he declined to reveal names he said some of the big names already located in the Dundrum Shopping Centre, in Dublin, would be coming here.

Source: http://waterford-news.com/news/story/?trs=mhauqlsncw&cat=news

ziedth

Great news,

I really really hope it comes off.

decies

The word is "hope" people nothing concrete at all in that.Nothing definite but "hope".