RTÉNL are a thundering disgrace; Panasonic are idiots!

netwhizkid

I am really mad at RTÉ now as their bungling has left me €700 out of pocket. They are building a DTT network which is due to launch this Autumn. I am an avid supporter of this and already imported an MPEG4 Capable box from NZ to receive the signals.

Today I purchased a Panasonic TX-32LZ80L 32" LCD 1080p Television in the Soundstore. Now I am unhappy and I blame RTÉNL entirely as they have made a complete balls of everything. They made one good decision in choosing MPEG4 over stoneage MPEG2; (however this is where they stopped doing things right). They have not given the new service a name or logo yet, or made it known to the Public that MPEG2 will not work and that this new service is coming. Because of this and their lack of a clear Irish definitive standard and brand I bought a Tv today which not only is not MPEG4 ready but does not have a DVB-T tuner at all.:mad:

The people in Soundstore were extremely helpful but this is a problem faced by every single TV retailer across Ireland over RTÉ's unwillingness to brand the thing and say to the Manufacturers if your Tv meets our standards then it can carry our stamp. eg. "DTT Ireland Ready" or whatever like the Digital tick in the UK and TNT in France.

To add insult to injury when myself and the Soundstore guys were not sure of the DTT readiness of the TV I then rang Panasonic in Dublin and was diverted to London where the complete moron there assured me that indeed the TV is DVB-T capable and MPEG4 capable for Ireland's DTT network. Which it is not one bit. I told the Soundstore fellas I was buying the TV on the pretence that it be DTT ready.

Panasonic were once regarded in Ireland as a premium brand but in my opinion are now in the gutter and no different in my eyes to any generic Chinese import junk. As an example of the contempt shown to Irish consumers they do not have my model listed on their website which is .co.uk as they do not have an Ireland dedicated website.

I went out today to do the right thing and buy Irish and also paying our VAT at 21.5%, I bought local (Tralee) and collected my TV avoiding the wait from buying online. I paid €700 for a 32" Tv which is a far higher price than other countries and I bought Panasonic as I percieived them to be a quality premium brand like the Sony of old and the old Mercedes cars. However like the latter two they are now in the gutter (in terms of Customer Service anyway). I do not blame the soundstore as we got the thumbs up from Panasonic that it was DTT ready and I bought it then as a result.

I now feel that Panasonic mis-sold me the Television, however it is RTÉNL's fault that they are as clueless as anyone else. RTÉNL (correct me if I am wrong) were supposed to begin advertising and consultation with the manufacturers back in February but have done nothing since only kill the signal to anyone with a MPEG4 iDTV like I thought I was buying today, which is incidentally also caused by Panasonic not adhering to the DVB standards for DVB-T and not willing to patch it. (see this thread)

I must now return this Television to the Soundstore tomorrow as it is no good to me, this leaves Soundstore €700 down from the sale and with a TV that is essentially a writedown and may sell as display stock for around €350. RTÉ's bungling and Panasonic's ignorance has stunned me and will stun the Soundstore even more.

Ireland is in an economic depression and electronic retailers are going bust daily. This behaviour from RTÉ will only kill the trade further.

GerardKeating

netwhizkid wrote: »

I am really mad at RTÉ now as their bungling has left me €700 out of pocket. They are building a DTT network which is due to launch this Autumn. I am an avid supporter of this and already imported an MPEG4 Capable box from NZ to receive the signals. .
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.
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Ireland is in an economic depression and electronic retailers are going bust daily. This behaviour from RTÉ will only kill the trade further.

Why are RTÉNL to blame for problems in Panasonic and your failure to research the model properly, 30 seconds with google would have resovled this for you.

And they cannot control the retailers. And the government decide when the publicity starts, not RTÉNL.

MarkK

Irish DTT has not officially launched yet and RTENL was not responsible for determining the standards.

If you decide to shell out your cash to try and receive test signals, it's nobodys fault but your own.

netwhizkid

GerardKeating wrote: »

Why are RTÉNL to blame for problems in Panasonic and your failure to research the model properly, 30 seconds with google would have resovled this for you.

And they cannot control the retailers. And the government decide when the publicity starts, not RTÉNL.

We google'd instore with the help of the soundstore and the information available is sketchy to say the least. Panasonic do not even have the spec's or information about this television available on their site like! It was a new model into the store I bought it as it seemed to meet my specs available. My father even took a day off work and we went to buy and collect it in his van as it would not fit in my car without removing the packaging and associated mess.

MarkK wrote: »

Irish DTT has not officially launched yet and RTENL was not responsible for determining the standards.

If you decide to shell out your cash to try and receive test signals, it's nobodys fault but your own.

I bought the TV to be future proofed for DTT as the standards are set by RTÉNL/FIANNA FAILURE - (or whoever) as MPEG4 for coding and MHEG5 for EPG and Digital interactive. I did not shell out for to receive test signals, (this I already done with my NZ import box), however I am so impressed with the quality of the TV and its performance with Standard Defintion Sky+ and my NZ DTT Box that I will forego the iDTV aspect and save the Soundstore the trouble (as this is not their fault IMO) my DTT box redeemed it as I just rigged it up a few mins ago on HDMI at 1080i. and the picture quality is great. Panasonic should have known better than to tell me "oh yeah, it is DVB-T MPEG4 compatible, It is an Irish model for Ireland". The could have at least told me oh, no this will not work with service as it does not have a DVB-T tuner. The Irish Authorities failure to consult or liaise with any manufacturer again to blame.

The Government should have nothing to do with this, look at the mess they made of the economy if DTT is relying on the Government for anything more than funding then it is doomed before it ever gets of the ground.

Bog Butter

netwhizkid wrote: »

I am really mad at RTÉ now as their bungling has left me €700 out of pocket. They are building a DTT network which is due to launch this Autumn. I am an avid supporter of this and already imported an MPEG4 Capable box from NZ to receive the signals.

Today I purchased a Panasonic TX-32LZ80L 32" LCD 1080p Television in the Soundstore. Now I am unhappy and I blame RTÉNL entirely as they have made a complete balls of everything. They made one good decision in choosing MPEG4 over stoneage MPEG2; (however this is where they stopped doing things right). They have not given the new service a name or logo yet, or made it known to the Public that MPEG2 will not work and that this new service is coming. Because of this and their lack of a clear Irish definitive standard and brand I bought a Tv today which not only is not MPEG4 ready but does not have a DVB-T tuner at all.:mad:

The people in Soundstore were extremely helpful but this is a problem faced by every single TV retailer across Ireland over RTÉ's unwillingness to brand the thing and say to the Manufacturers if your Tv meets our standards then it can carry our stamp. eg. "DTT Ireland Ready" or whatever like the Digital tick in the UK and TNT in France.

To add insult to injury when myself and the Soundstore guys were not sure of the DTT readiness of the TV I then rang Panasonic in Dublin and was diverted to London where the complete moron there assured me that indeed the TV is DVB-T capable and MPEG4 capable for Ireland's DTT network. Which it is not one bit. I told the Soundstore fellas I was buying the TV on the pretence that it be DTT ready.

Panasonic were once regarded in Ireland as a premium brand but in my opinion are now in the gutter and no different in my eyes to any generic Chinese import junk. As an example of the contempt shown to Irish consumers they do not have my model listed on their website which is .co.uk as they do not have an Ireland dedicated website.

I went out today to do the right thing and buy Irish and also paying our VAT at 21.5%, I bought local (Tralee) and collected my TV avoiding the wait from buying online. I paid €700 for a 32" Tv which is a far higher price than other countries and I bought Panasonic as I percieived them to be a quality premium brand like the Sony of old and the old Mercedes cars. However like the latter two they are now in the gutter (in terms of Customer Service anyway). I do not blame the soundstore as we got the thumbs up from Panasonic that it was DTT ready and I bought it then as a result.

I now feel that Panasonic mis-sold me the Television, however it is RTÉNL's fault that they are as clueless as anyone else. RTÉNL (correct me if I am wrong) were supposed to begin advertising and consultation with the manufacturers back in February but have done nothing since only kill the signal to anyone with a MPEG4 iDTV like I thought I was buying today, which is incidentally also caused by Panasonic not adhering to the DVB standards for DVB-T and not willing to patch it. (see this thread)

I must now return this Television to the Soundstore tomorrow as it is no good to me, this leaves Soundstore €700 down from the sale and with a TV that is essentially a writedown and may sell as display stock for around €350. RTÉ's bungling and Panasonic's ignorance has stunned me and will stun the Soundstore even more.

Ireland is in an economic depression and electronic retailers are going bust daily. This behaviour from RTÉ will only kill the trade further.

But it is not long since Boxer pulled out. Surely they were in limbo until now to a certain degree. Wasn't it their plan to lauch together with Boxer? Surely the finalisation stage could not have happen't prior to the Boxer pullout? Is it reasonable to expect them to have everthing finalised right now?

Is it such a big deal really? Can you not keep the t.v and just buy one of the official boxes when they come out? As far as RTE are concerned their is no mad rush and their isn't. This might be an issue for you been an enthusiast but it is not for the general public. RTE know that and so do Panasonic. "Contempt.." - Why would Panasonic bother their arses with an Irish specific website considering that we are a very small population with a very similiar profile to the UK? Get a grip man! In Panasonic's and RTE's eyes the general public are none the wiser.

netwhizkid

malman wrote: »

Get a grip man! In Panasonic's and RTE's eyes the general public are none the wiser.

Of course exactly and this is the point I am trying to make. Let's imagine say all the car dealers in Ireland are selling Right Hand Drive cars now, however in say 3 months time Ireland suddenly switches to driving on the Right like Europe, but nobody ever decided to tell anybody, say it was announced today and implemented next week.

Wouldn't all the 09 owners feel pretty p'd off and anybody who invested money into something which is now obsolete, however we can now butcher the car and get it converted for another fee say 10% of the purchase price but the car will never be as good as a true LHD.

The vast majority of TV stock on the shelves of Irish stores is obsolete technology and not future proofed because of RTÉNL's stupidity, all they need to do is say right lads, this is what we are doing, you'd want to get yer gear up to scratch for it. I consider it similar to the those who bought HD-DVD players only for it to go defunct, not many people would buy out of date technology if they knew what was happening.

I have decided to keep the TV to spare the Soundstore the financial loss and because of the great help I got from the staff and the manager of the store. The blame of what happened lays with Panasonic but if RTÉ had their shop in order this would not happen as the TV would have a "Irish DTT ready" or similar attached. Also my MPEG4 DTT box performed exceptionally well with it so at least I am not 100% dependent on Sky for receiving RTÉ digitally with this TV. This is so typical of Ireland nothing can be done properly. I really do wonder what or how RTÉ ever chose MPEG4 as by doing something good they went totally against their corporate grain.

The Cush

netwhizkid wrote: »

I now feel that Panasonic mis-sold me the Television, however it is RTÉNL's fault that they are as clueless as anyone else. RTÉNL (correct me if I am wrong) were supposed to begin advertising and consultation with the manufacturers back in February but have done nothing since only kill the signal to anyone with a MPEG4 iDTV like I thought I was buying today, which is incidentally also caused by Panasonic not adhering to the DVB standards for DVB-T and not willing to patch it. (see this thread)

RTÉNL is responsible for rolling out the DTT network only not the public information campaign.
The initial responsibility for the National rollout and Government information campaign is with the Dept of Communications, Minister Eamon Ryan said last July

“Central to the success of national rollout will be a public information campaign by the Department explaining digital television to the nation. My Department will begin this national information campaign in March 2009, in advance of the autumn 2009 launch date.

Since that statement responsibility for the National DTT Campaign has been assigned to the BAI/BCI under the new Broadcasting Bill from 01 Jul 09. RTÉ, in the Bill are responsible for providing analogue switchoff information.

(6) RTÉ shall take steps to ensure that all viewers of services
referred to in paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (2) provided by
analogue means are made aware, of the analogue switch-off date or
dates, the reasons for it or them, the consequences, and practical
information on how such viewers can receive such services by digital
means after that date or those dates.
(7) The Authority shall from 1 July 2009 until the analogue
switch-off date or dates provide information to the public in respect
of the reception of television services by means of a multiplex and
the reception equipment necessary to receive such television
services.

watty

The Government does the publicity, sets the rules, decides what standards.

Not RTE or RTENL. RTENL is only implementing.

There is NO service. Only engineering tests. If I was doing it I might at this stage use a service ID that nothing would understand, or transmit test loops.

We advised here and other agencies advised that NO-ONE buy anything especially for DTT until the service is publically launched.

Publicity about analogue switch off does not start until after a digital service has started.

The fact that we use 220V-240V rated BC light fittings doesn't stop the shops being full of ES fittings designed for USA 110V and 220V ES bulbs.

(7) The Authority shall from 1 July 2009 until the analogue
switch-off date or dates provide information to the public in respect
of the reception of television services by means of a multiplex and
the reception equipment necessary to receive such television
services.

Since the Commercial service was supposed to launch in Jan2009 and RTENL today seem to be roughly at the stage I was told they would be at in Aug2008, I suspect that clause ought to be changed.

However yesterday was 22nd May 2009. Somewhat in advance of July 2009.

Historically many early HD tuners had SW that erroniously assumed only HD, not SD would use MPEG4.

Panasonic obviously don't have their act together yet. But it's nothing to do with RTENL.

To re-iterate what has been said recently over the last while:
There is NO current Trial. Only engineering tests that are not aimed at the public.


And since about 1999:
Unless you have money to experiment, don't buy anything for DTT yet.

Since the trend is toward the TV as a monitor for many content devices (DTT, Cable, Satellite boxes with PVR, PS3, Xbox, Media PC, DVD, BD player) the fact it has no suitable tuner is irrelevent.

Only the HDMI and SCART inputs have any degree of future proofing in terms changes.
Since my last TV we have had Analogue Satellite, Digital Satellite, DVBs2 Satellite, 2 kinds of Digital MMDS, analogue MMDS, analogue and Digital Cable, analogue TV and two kinds of DTT all as possible broadcast sources.

It's only for cheap kitchen TV/Bedroom TV that a tuner is important. Since only integrated HDD makes sense to record Digital, especially HD, then for living room you want a dual tuner PVR set box.

Also it's very likely in about 3-5 years we will have some FTA HD on terrestrial, this could very well be a separate DVB-t2 mux.

If you told the shop the TV was for Irish DTT, they have to take it back. Otherwise get a decent PVR that would make any internal tuner look rubbish anyway.

watty

In 1976 you could buy a future proof Colour TV. Not today.

I dumped a 30 year old 16" set still giving perfectly good picture that tuner buttons had got dodgy.

Get a screen that has lots of SCART and HDMI and if the screen doesn't wear out in 5 years it will still be useful. With so many consoles, disc formats and currently about 12+ transmission formats (and rising) compared with one in 1976, it's the screen and inputs not the tuner that is important.

SRB

RTE NL make it VERY clear on their website these are just tests :

"Digital Roll Out"

"RTÉNL is undertaking DTT technical test transmissions in a number of areas...
These test transmissions will operate for varying durations and are subject to regular variations and prolonged interruptions. The test transmissions will cease in the majority of areas once testing is complete and permanent transmissions will not commence until the service is formally launched by the broadcasters.
Under no circumstances should the test transmissions be considered an operational service.....
Please note that no STB's (set top boxes) or iDTV's (Integrated Digital Televisions) have been approved for the irish market as yet.
This situation will change in the coming months."

The EPG even carried a "this is a test and does not indicate a live service" message along the same lines for a while - I think it still does on the RTE NL Test Channel.

To be honest, if retailers don't understand that by now, they deserve all they get.

mjsmyth

This is an amazing thread....

You failed to do the research on a product you are buying for a service that does not exist and you are now upset because you got it wrong.

Perhaps the first warning should have been that there is precious little information on the internet about that model. There is however, more information on the TX-32LZ85L and it is clearly stated that it is an Irish model.

A quick google on that model and I found this:

It's actually TX-32LZ85L... it's an Irish model, without the freeview tuner.

You can blame anyone you want for buying this TV, but the simple fact is that you did not do your research.

Mossy Monk

I like to read an uninformed rant. Thank you.

maxg

It looks like the OP got ripped off with old stock from last year.
The 2009 pana series for the irish market with L at the end of the name got an mpeg4 decoder.
Btw the mentioned 32lz85l is also old stock from 2008 without dvb-t/mpeg4.

bk

Hate to break it to you mate, but it looks like you got seriously taken by Sound store, the LZ80 looks like last years model, not a new model. That is why it doesn't have a tuner and why it isn't up on the Panasonic site, Soundstore basically sold you a pup.

The TX-L32G10L is the equivalent new model for this year:
http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/VIERA+Plasma+and+LCD+TVs/Irish+Viera+LCD/TX-L32G10L/Overview/2356412/index.html

it comes with everything you want including MPEG 4 DTT tuner and it is a better TV then the one you bought with a 50,000:1 contrast ratio versus just 10,000:1.

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/287749/module/general/compare/products/displayResult.html?p=TX-37LZ85L&p=TX-L32G10L

It is more expensive:
http://allianceelectric.ie/test/catalog/index.php?cPath=1_33_59&osCsid=29c7369d265c10e38842afa6ae9c0a08

You could also try Arnotts, they are giving 10% of the new Panny's today.

I'd return the TV if your not happy, if they complain just quote the the following acts to them:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/consumer-affairs/consumer-protection/consumer-rights/consumers_and_the_law_in_ireland

snaps

I would say 90% of the public that brought new tvs this year will be very dissapointed when DTT is rolled out and they will find out they will not work with DTT. Everyone i have spoken with down the pub reckons there new shining LCDs are digital ready, you should see there faces when i tell them only digital ready for the UK!!!!!

Plus when the news boxer had pulled out, this as done damage to DTT as it was in the news and the general public are under the impression that NO DTT service is being rolled out now, so have signed up with sky.

I do think there should be some kind of campaign by the government, RTE or BCI now with infomation regarding DTT and tv compatibility, as DTT could well be a dead duck in the water a everyone willbe getting sky in for their Irish channels.

Firetrap

It does raise a very good point though - why isn't there more publicity about Irish terrestrial digital TV (if it ever happens :rolleyes:). Is there even a logo to stick onto the boxes of the MPEG4 TV sets? Hell no!

The Cush

snaps wrote: »

Plus when the news boxer had pulled out, this as done damage to DTT as it was in the news and the general public are under the impression that NO DTT service is being rolled out now, so have signed up with sky.

I do think there should be some kind of campaign by the government, RTE or BCI now with infomation regarding DTT and tv compatibility, as DTT could well be a dead duck in the water a everyone willbe getting sky in for their Irish channels.

I think the vast majority of the Irish public don't know or care about DTT or Boxer, only what channels are available to them be they from Sky, UPC or DTT. It will only hit home once RTE start the analogue switchoff when the other TV's and vcrs around the house no longer pick up anything thru the aerial without an extra box.

I agree there should have been at least a "soft" information campaign and logo to prepare public e.g. a webpage giving basic info about the DTT standard and what to look out for when buying new equipment.

Martin_F

The lack of information & public awareness is a disgrace - that is the fault of the gov ( 1 of many :o:o).

The information campaign should have been started at least 12 months ago via retail outlets / stickers - to give the average Joe a chance of getting something compatible.

The shop have a responsibility to be informed (they are after all in the business of selling TV's in ireland) - at the end of the day they are making the sale based on a customers requirements and shouldknow thier products and their market.

Pansonic make great TV's - the problem is a lot of people either buy or are sold UK models since they can be cheaper due to more competition. It's a major issue for the consumer that Ireland is once again out of synch with the UK for TV standards - meaning higher prices for us. I'm not arguing for MPG2 mind !

The Cush

Martin_F wrote: »

The shop have a responsibility to be informed (they are after all in the business of selling TV's in ireland) - at the end of the day they are making the sale based on a customers requirements and shouldknow thier products and their market.

The shops and manufacturers are aware of the situation thru their representative organisation CEDA (Consumer Electronics Distributors Association within IBEC).
They issued an information note on the matter last Jul.

lawhec

snaps wrote: »

I would say 90% of the public that brought new tvs this year will be very dissapointed when DTT is rolled out and they will find out they will not work with DTT. Everyone i have spoken with down the pub reckons there new shining LCDs are digital ready, you should see there faces when i tell them only digital ready for the UK!!!!!

"Digital ready" can mean different things. Products designed for the UK market != replication for an Irish market. It would be like purchasing around 15-20 years ago an NTSC colour television from the USA, shipping it back to Ireland and then wondering what's going wrong that it can't receive PAL broadcasts despite the TV being sold as a "color television"? *

This is not to mention the difficulty in the past for many years in my local parts ensuring that a TV being bought had a VHF tuner, which the majority sold for the UK public didn't have. It's less of a problem these days due to more televisions being analogue multistandard.

While in some circumstances retail outlets are either by accident or design misleading customers, for the general public a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Most of us here are enthusiasts who if they don't know, are willing to know the difference between MPEG2 and MPEG4 video. Ask a random guy in the street what the difference is and (s)he'll look at you as if you've two heads.

* provided first of course that the AC voltage to the set has been stepped down first!

Martin_F

The Cush wrote: »

The shops and manufacturers are aware of the situation thru their representative organisation CEDA (Consumer Electronics Distributors Association within IBEC).
They issued an information note on the matter last Jul.

CEDA may have issued a leaflet - but each shop/salesperson should know which of their products are DTT capable before the customer asks - they shouldn't have to resort to google etc to find out. Personally in this day and age I wouldn't trust a salesperson to know more than the size of the screen.

A big reason they get away with it is that 95% of buyers just plug it into SKY or NTL. I'm inclinded myself to accept the buy a TV as a screen only mantra - TV technology is moving so fast - but customers should be able to make an informed choice without having to do weeks research.

but my main point was that OP should hold the retailer responsible.

Satts

Why does everything in Ireland have to be a big secret ?

Maybe netwhizkid made a mistake, but the mistake shouldn't be there to make i.e. Public info at least 12 months before the launch. I mean "Public info" as in terms and mediums Joe Public will understand and come across daily, not tech data hidden in obscure websites most people will not see.
Clear demarkation of products in retail shops and trained staff to inform the public of the consequences of buying either.

I spoke to a wholesaler recently and he admited he doesn't know any more than the rest of us, and not for the lack of trying to find out.

Maybe Fianna Failure and Co don't know either.
Or maybe they do and want us to buy a new telly now, and when DTT launches, throw it out and buy another one.

People who are buying TV's ( and DVD recorders with analogue tuners )now will not want to shell out more money for a good quality receiver box.
What will happen is they will end up buying a cheapo from a supermarket multiple which will be inferior quality and unreliable giving DTT a bad name and encourging even more people to sign up to satellite.

I have spoken to a few retailers, some independents know a little, multiple chain electonic stores no nothing, and almost all of them never heard of MPEG5 and interactive services.

I think it is crazy there is no public info in summer'09 for a service that is to launch in Autumn'09. It is a total disregard for the consumer.

watty

Maybe "digital ready" means an HDMI socket?

"HD ready" and "Full HD" are actually worthless, meaningless logo.

I can't believe this Government got in given the "whip round from lads" stories etc of Bertie and their past performance.

They have messed up Education, Health, Broadband, TV and regulation of Finance/Banking. The lack of planning & publicity and totally pointless 3 Rock/ Clermont Trial etc to do with DTT and doctrinaire Comerical Operator Matra when it was obvious TEN years ago that only a FTA DTT model is feasible in Ireland.

They fact the they have messed up with DTT is the least of it.

Now I'll ban myself for an Off Topic Political Rant.

byte

Blaming RTÉ and Panasonic because you bought a TV incapable of receiving MPEG4 DTT?

Jeez. Thread closed.