Velib like bicycle rental kiosks are being constructed in Dublin

petethedrummer

flickerx wrote: »

I cant understand the negativity towards this scheme.

Come on now, this isn't your first day on the internet, is it?

kona

eightyfish wrote: »

Why are you so negative about something that hasn't even happened yet? Let the bikes come, give it a couple weeks, then criticise.

Because,

This has been done in paris, its already up and running, there is ad space, and there is bikes. Its turned into a disaster with jc decaux tying to worm out of it because the bikes are going missing and getting damaged, and they "cannot afford":rolleyes: to keep the scheme going.

Secondly,
The scheme is currently a mess in this country and we havnt got the bikes. The ads have been up For over a year, however the bikes havnt shown up yet, even after deadlines being pushed back. At the earliest it will be winter when this is introduced,(joe public isnt gunna pay to ride a crap bike in the pissing rain in dublin) The whole scheme is off to a terrible start.

Thirdly,
From my point of view, The bikes are crap, they are of poor quality for the use they are intended for.They are heavy, ugly, and of poor quality, these traits in a bike will do more harm to cycling than good IMO. There are no support services in place at the moment, and it doesnt look like they are about to put one together anytime soon.

Fourthly,
The ads have been up a year and we havnt seen the bikes. We are being ****ed over, and I do not like this, The whole thing stinks of some lying prick of a politician getting a little on the side.

So to conclude, The scheme is already off to a bad start, now if it was a strong scheme It could have redemption, but looking to other citys where the scheme has failed or is in trouble, the same citys which are far more pro cycling than dublin ever will be, makes it extremely likely this scheme will be a disaster.

Im not going to be sayng its great when, we were promised bikes a year ago and got none, but we sure as hell got the ads.

Now, I do believe the idea is a good one, and Seen as Im slating the scheme let me put forward a idea that would benefit dubliners alot more.

DCC rents out the ad space for what its worth(not far less:rolleyes:) We take the millions of euro generated, and pump it into cycling infrastructure, and subsidized bikes and maintenace for people in DCC areas.

We could have:
Segragated cycle lanes.
Better Driver eductaion RE: cyclists.
Better Cyclist Education.
More places to lock your bikes in the city centre securely.
Howth & Bray head could have a proper MTB trail built around them.
People could get bikes subsidized, which would promote buying better bikes.
DARTs could be retrofitted to take bikes.

IMO its a better Idea, and doesnt involve having a company thats only interested in profit and couldnt care less about cyclists, as a partner

Vélo

flickerx wrote: »

I cant understand the negativity towards this scheme. I think its great.

Lets give it a shot, I think its an experiment worth doing. If it doesnt work out, so be it, at least we can say that the city council tried. But I hope it works.

+1

uberwolf

flickerx wrote: »

I cant understand the negativity towards this scheme. I think its great.

TBH, I think it's a great idea. But scheme? not as much, given what we've experienced to date, and the experience of other countries with the same operators.

eightyfish

kona wrote: »

Because,

Firstly, appreciate the long post.

kona wrote: »

This has been done in paris, its already up and running, there is ad space, and there is bikes. Its turned into a disaster...

Maybe this means that now some lessons have been learned.

kona wrote: »

Secondly, The scheme is currently a mess in this country and we havnt got the bikes.

While this may be unfair, it doesn't discount from the bike scheme itself.

kona wrote: »

Thirdly, From my point of view, The bikes are crap,

Fair enough.

kona wrote: »

Fourthly, The ads have been up a year and we havnt seen the bikes.

How is this different to point 2?

kona wrote: »

looking to other citys where the scheme has failed or is in trouble

Interested to read about this, any links?

kona wrote: »

We could have:
Segragated cycle lanes.
Better Driver eductaion RE: cyclists.
Better Cyclist Education.
More places to lock your bikes in the city centre securely.
Howth & Bray head could have a proper MTB trail built around them.
People could get bikes subsidized, which would promote buying better bikes.
DARTs could be retrofitted to take bikes.

+1 on those.
I'll add Luas bike use.

kona

RE: proof from other cities

Jc decaux worming out of paris after 18 months: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7881079.stm (courtesy of run to da hills)

Boards.ie discussion on it : http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055485537&highlight=velib+paris

TinyExplosions

kona wrote: »

RE: proof from other cities

Jc decaux worming out of paris after 18 months: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7881079.stm (courtesy of run to da hills)

Boards.ie discussion on it : http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055485537&highlight=velib+paris

Where does it say that they are pulling out? It mentions that they are looking to change the contract, but not that they are pulling out.

Also, one scheme that has run into problems doesn't mean that every one is going to fail.

You're tarring everything with one, very specific, yet mistaken brush

kona

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Where does it say that they are pulling out? It mentions that they are looking to change the contract, but not that they are pulling out.

Also, one scheme that has run into problems doesn't mean that every one is going to fail.

You're tarring everything with one, very specific, yet mistaken brush

Ive given a long post with plenty of reasons why it will fail. You can pick away and find holes and look for a argument.
Im still going to believe that the whole scheme is a giant **** up, that it is not going to work in this city because its already being badly planned, couple this with a city thats extremely ignorant to cyclists and you have yourself a disaster.
How anybody can think the scheme is going to be a success, jusdging by whats going on here and whats been proven abroad , i cannot believe. I thik you are looking for a argumentwith me.
I could say the sky is blue and youd disagree and say its pink, then request proof that its blue, then speculate that its photoshopped:p

maninasia

There are a lot more obvious things that could be done for cycling in Dublin as Kona outlined in bottom of his post and the whole scheme should have been done on a separated basis (why link an advertising company with a bike scheme unless brown envelopes are involved somewhere along the way?).

I at least welcome the scheme in the sense that a start is better than nothing at all. What matters most is getting the general public to expect a biking infrastructure...the politicians will follow behind.

One thing I must point out is placing bikes directly outside pubs (such as the one off lower O'Connell St) looks like sheer lunacy... they will jumped on and fallen on deliberately or not.

kona

maninasia wrote: »

One thing I must point out is placing bikes directly outside pubs (such as the one off lower O'Connell St) looks like sheer lunacy... they will jumped on and fallen on deliberately or not.

The vandalism point was brought up about 8 pages ago, this lead to a argument, with pretty stupid comments, accusations. Alot of people here think its a foolproof system and there wont be bikes in the liffey and destroyed by drunks and scangers.:pac::pac:

blorg

JC Decaux is trying to reduce their financial commitment in Paris as profit-making companies are wont to do. This does not mean the scheme is by any means a failure.

I don't see how anyone who has actually been to Paris and seen the scheme in use can deem it a disaster. Paris has a much stronger cycling culture now than it did ten/fifteen years ago (when it would have been in the "are you crazy" bracket) and Velib has brought it front and centre into the mainstream for everyone. Ditto for Barcelona.

Second annual survey found:

What:
50,000,000 usages since start in July 2007
6,000,000 single day passes
170,000 yearly subscriptions
23,900 bicycles in service by the end of the 2009

Why:
94% of the users of Vélib’ are satisfied with the service.
90% stressed the ease of use and the price.
84% like swiping the subscription card rather than entering in numbers to access a bike.
54% are dissatisfied with the condition of the bikes - as a result, a new public service advertising campaign against Vélib’ vandalism has begun
56% are satisfied with the availability of bikes, but only 42% are satisfied with the availability of empty racks when returning a bike.
The best reasons for using Vélib’: 90% said it reduces pollution and it makes it is easier to get around, 86% said it helps complete the trip when using public transportation, 85% said it is good for their health and 69% noted the cost.

Sure there are problems but it is overall very positive.

TinyExplosions

kona wrote: »

Because,



Secondly,
The scheme is currently a mess in this country and we havnt got the bikes. The ads have been up For over a year, however the bikes havnt shown up yet, even after deadlines being pushed back. At the earliest it will be winter when this is introduced,(joe public isnt gunna pay to ride a crap bike in the pissing rain in dublin) The whole scheme is off to a terrible start.

Thirdly,
From my point of view, The bikes are crap, they are of poor quality for the use they are intended for.They are heavy, ugly, and of poor quality, these traits in a bike will do more harm to cycling than good IMO. There are no support services in place at the moment, and it doesnt look like they are about to put one together anytime soon.

Fourthly,
The ads have been up a year and we havnt seen the bikes. We are being ****ed over, and I do not like this, The whole thing stinks of some lying prick of a politician getting a little on the side.

So to conclude, The scheme is already off to a bad start, now if it was a strong scheme It could have redemption, but looking to other citys where the scheme has failed or is in trouble, the same citys which are far more pro cycling than dublin ever will be, makes it extremely likely this scheme will be a disaster.

Im not going to be sayng its great when, we were promised bikes a year ago and got none, but we sure as hell got the ads.

Now, I do believe the idea is a good one, and Seen as Im slating the scheme let me put forward a idea that would benefit dubliners alot more.

DCC rents out the ad space for what its worth(not far less:rolleyes:) We take the millions of euro generated, and pump it into cycling infrastructure, and subsidized bikes and maintenace for people in DCC areas.

We could have:
Segragated cycle lanes.
Better Driver eductaion RE: cyclists.
Better Cyclist Education.
More places to lock your bikes in the city centre securely.
Howth & Bray head could have a proper MTB trail built around them.
People could get bikes subsidized, which would promote buying better bikes.
DARTs could be retrofitted to take bikes.

IMO its a better Idea, and doesnt involve having a company thats only interested in profit and couldnt care less about cyclists, as a partner

kona wrote: »

Ive given a long post with plenty of reasons why it will fail. You can pick away and find holes and look for a argument.
Im still going to believe that the whole scheme is a giant **** up, that it is not going to work in this city because its already being badly planned, couple this with a city thats extremely ignorant to cyclists and you have yourself a disaster.
How anybody can think the scheme is going to be a success, jusdging by whats going on here and whats been proven abroad , i cannot believe. I thik you are looking for a argumentwith me.
I could say the sky is blue and youd disagree and say its pink, then request proof that its blue, then speculate that its photoshopped:p

The only reason you have given to support your idea of it failing is that there is some talk about a contract renegotiation in Paris, one of the many schemes around the world. That's like saying that football fans in Argentina were rioting, so we ban crowds from football matches around the world. One failure does not make an entire idea invalid, which is what you seem to be getting at.

You give four reasons why the scheme will fail. The first is the Paris example which I've addressed above. Your second and fourth points are a tautology, but don't prove that the scheme will fail. The fact is that we don't have the bikes yet, so the fact that advertising has gone up is a problem with the original contract, not a problem with the bike scheme, and isn't an indication that it's failed.

Your third reason is personal speculation, and I would agree that the bikes may not be the best quality, but they've worked in other countries, so there's no reason that they won't work here.

JC Decaux are a bunch of money grabbing b***ards, and they have shafted us over the whole thing, but that does not mean that the scheme will be a failure. Look at the example of the LUAS -the project ran late, had huge overruns on budget and everyone said it was going to be an abject failure, yet now it's in it's a success.

Give it a chance, and if it does fail, then you can lord over everyone that you were right, but until then you're just banging on like a broken record

kona

blorg wrote: »

JC Decaux is trying to reduce their financial commitment in Paris as profit-making companies are wont to do. This does not mean the scheme is by any means a failure.

.

Do you reckon the amount of ad boards will proportinally drop too? Jc decaux are getting a sweet deal, buy a bunch of cheap bikes, in return for ad space worth millions? then they want to reduce the cost more!
Great from a company point of view, from a public view its terrible.
If its costing too much, they should cut jc decaux out and rent them their ad space in return for cash, and put this cash into running the scheme properly, where cost isnt going to be the #1 factor in deciding everything.

kona

TinyExplosions wrote: »

The only reason you have given to support your idea of it failing is that there is some talk about a contract renegotiation in Paris, one of the many schemes around the world. That's like saying that football fans in Argentina were rioting, so we ban crowds from football matches around the world. One failure does not make an entire idea invalid, which is what you seem to be getting at.

You give four reasons why the scheme will fail. The first is the Paris example which I've addressed above. Your second and fourth points are a tautology, but don't prove that the scheme will fail. The fact is that we don't have the bikes yet, so the fact that advertising has gone up is a problem with the original contract, not a problem with the bike scheme, and isn't an indication that it's failed.

Your third reason is personal speculation, and I would agree that the bikes may not be the best quality, but they've worked in other countries, so there's no reason that they won't work here.

JC Decaux are a bunch of money grabbing b***ards, and they have shafted us over the whole thing, but that does not mean that the scheme will be a failure. Look at the example of the LUAS -the project ran late, had huge overruns on budget and everyone said it was going to be an abject failure, yet now it's in it's a success.

Give it a chance, and if it does fail, then you can lord over everyone that you were right, but until then you're just banging on like a broken record

I cant prove somthing is a failure if it doesnt exist. I can only look to similar situations, and put them into a irish enviroment...its not good IMO. Id say the chances of success are under 40%

TinyExplosions

kona wrote: »

Do you reckon the amount of ad boards will proportinally drop too? Jc decaux are getting a sweet deal, buy a bunch of cheap bikes, in return for ad space worth millions? then they want to reduce the cost more!
Great from a company point of view, from a public view its terrible.
If its costing too much, they should cut jc decaux out and rent them their ad space in return for cash, and put this cash into running the scheme properly, where cost isnt going to be the #1 factor in deciding everything.

Maybe we need to get to the bottom of what you consider a successful scheme to be? How would you quantify the scheme as being a success or failure?

eightyfish

kona wrote: »

RE: proof from other cities

Interesting. As the article says, it has been undertaken in other cities before Paris and it worked. Paris has problems. Lessons have been learned since then in terms of distribution of drop-off points etc.

Look, it may not have been the best route getting to where we are now, but here we are. We're getting bikes and we've already got stations. I'm not saying we won't have problems, I'm not saying it's going to be well run and I'm not saying they won't be vandalised and stolen. I'm saying cheap rental bikes available around Dublin is better than f*ck all. I am saying wait and see.

DePurpereWolf

I think Kona is upset that they didn't consult him here on the cycling boards.ie before going ahead with it.

In all fairness, they should have asked us first.

TinyExplosions

kona wrote: »

I cant prove somthing is a failure if it doesnt exist. I can only look to similar situations, and put them into a irish enviroment...its not good IMO. Id say the chances of success are under 40%

Yes, but what I am saying is that the similar situation (yes, singular) that you allude to is not a failure. So, if you looked at the schemes in place around Europe, the only conclusion you can draw is that they have problems, but by no means are they a failure.

kona

Well ive no choice but to wait and see. Its a discussion and I think its going to be a **** up. The fact that we have gotten shafted makes it a disaster no matter how big a succes it unlikely will be.
This whole thing could have been done better cheaper.

Its like buying a Ford fiesta for e100k, sure you got shafted but it still works, gets you to work.

However you will always know you could have had a 100k ferrari.

TinyExplosions

kona wrote: »

Its like buying a Ford fiesta for e100k, sure you got shafted but it still works, gets you to work.

However you will always know you could have had a 100k ferrari.

But it doesn't make the Fiesta a failure, and that's the whole point of what I've been saying!

kona

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

I think Kona is upset that they didn't consult him here on the cycling boards.ie before going ahead with it.

In all fairness, they should have asked us first.

they should have had a consultation with sombody who actually had a clue about the dynamics of cycling in dublin.
Not some overpaid civil servant clown who gets to work everyday, cutting up and abusing* cyclists in his BMW X5 so he can look down on us "hippies"

* may be a exaggeration

kona

TinyExplosions wrote: »

But it doesn't make the Fiesta a failure, and that's the whole point of what I've been saying!

nope its sure doesnt, until the horn beeps when you use the wipers:D

But I dont know about some people but personally i dont really want to settle for 2nd best, I want 1st class.

I suppose thats what Im trying to say.


At the end of the day im not going to be using these bikes, ive my own bike(s). But as a huge way of getting the public on bikes its not the best way. In Ireland, to promote cycling as viable, we need the absoloute best we can get.

maninasia

Me too, but that's not the way Ireland works or most people think here....

Chips Lovell

kona wrote: »

DCC rents out the ad space for what its worth(not far less:rolleyes:)

What is it worth?

Chips Lovell

It's also interesting that everyone who's ridden the bikes (like blorg) says there fine, but someone who hasn't ridden one is slating them.

kona

el tonto wrote: »

What is it worth?

Alot more than, a couple hundred cheap bikes and a few stations IMO.
Im suprised the bikes dont have ads on them:D

Can anybody involved in ads here give us a idea?

kona

el tonto wrote: »

It's also interesting that everyone who's ridden the bikes (like blorg) says there fine, but someone who hasn't ridden one is slating them.

A cheap dual suspention feels Fine, if you ride it once.
Use it frequently, will all different riders who couldnt give a **** about it, then we will see if its fine.
The fact that jc decaux "cant afford the upkeep" of them points to this.
Throw in inexperienced mechanics and its gunna be fun.
They are cheap bikes. Maybe translated its like having a cheap bike from halfords used everyday in all weather, serviced by a 15 year old in halfords.

Now if sombody posted a thread here with that in it. There wouldnt be such a sympathetic point of view.

lukester

kona wrote: »

they should have had a consultation with sombody who actually had a clue about the dynamics of cycling in dublin.

I don't know if you've actually seen the scheme in Paris in operation, I assume you haven't.

In spite of the evident problems already discussed, it is undoubtedly a huge success. I used the bikes a good bit on my last visit there, as did lots of other visitors, but locals were the main users.

There was much scepticism of it in Paris when it was launched, too much traffic, too dangerous, theft, vandalism, etc. And yet it has succeeded. I'd argue Dublin has a stronger cycling culture now than Paris did pre-Velib.

But if you haven't seen the scheme in operation, it's hard to imagine how it can work. A scheme like this can create a cultural shift beyond the mere fact of being able to pick up a cheap rental bike for half an hour.

Chips Lovell

kona wrote: »

Alot more than, a couple hundred cheap bikes and a few stations IMO.
Im suprised the bikes dont have ads on them:D

Can anybody involved in ads here give us a idea?

So if you don't have any idea of what it's worth why are you saying DCC is being ripped off?

kona

lukester wrote: »

I don't know if you've actually seen the scheme in Paris in operation, I assume you haven't.

In spite of the evident problems already discussed, it is undoubtedly a huge success. I used the bikes a good bit on my last visit there, as did lots of other visitors, but locals were the main users.

There was much scepticism of it in Paris when it was launched, too much traffic, too dangerous, theft, vandalism, etc. And yet it has succeeded. I'd argue Dublin has a stronger cycling culture now than Paris did pre-Velib.

But if you haven't seen the scheme in operation, it's hard to imagine how it can work. A scheme like this can create a cultural shift beyond the mere fact of being able to pick up a cheap rental bike for half an hour.

Velibs aside. Cycling in dublins momentum is growing everyday, Bike shops are finding it hard to keep up with demand.

Successful of not, I still think its a **** up, stinks of some greedy corrupt bastard sponging. Wed be far better off doing it ourselves, provided input from commuters was sought.

I guarantee you that this whole thing could be done cheaper and with better quality.

In a country thats on its knees, we dont have the cash to just write off this stuff, we need value for money and in a recession we should get it.