Velib like bicycle rental kiosks are being constructed in Dublin

niceonetom

Kona, you're using criteria to judge the scheme a failure that aren't really applicable.

The scheme is painfully slow in arriving. OK. That does not make it a bad idea.

Some say (as I did) that the DCC massively overpaid (in ad space rather than cash) for the scheme. Given what has happened to the world economy since that deal, and the effect it has had on the market value of advertising space, it now looks like we were not ripped off at all, or at least not to the extent we thought we were. The bill boards ain't worth much. I still think they're a bloody eyesore and an invasive cheapening of public space - but that's another issue.

Your dismissal of the bikes as rubbish says a lot more about you (you haven't seen one of the bikes yet, right?) than it says about the bikes. The hipsters around here, no doubt, think that the velibs should be fixies (or singles). The roadies might want something nice and light. You, as an MTBer seem to think that the bikes should look like the ones at your gaff. These bikes necessarily won;t suit our refined taste. The design is meant to look friendly and usable. It's a design for non-cyclists, and I think they'll like it. Anything faster than walking will feel plenty fast to them - our frame of reference is distorted by spending too much time on €1000+ machines.

kona

el tonto wrote: »

So if you don't have any idea of what it's worth why are you saying DCC is being ripped off?

I can imagine placing a ad on a big sign in dublin isnt going to be cheap. Id say the weekly rent would be easaly into 1,000s. X by amount of signs, X time jc decaux have rented(or purchased) the sites for.

You looking at millions a year.

Now the bikes.

A per unit id say they cost e150 a pop. Now X by the amount. ad in the one off start up costs.

We are getting shafted. simple as.

kona

niceonetom wrote: »

Kona, you're using criteria to judge the scheme a failure that aren't really applicable.

The scheme is painfully slow in arriving. OK. That does not make it a bad idea.

Some say (as I did) that the DCC massively overpaid (in ad space rather than cash) for the scheme. Given what has happened to the world economy since that deal, and the effect it has had on the market value of advertising space, it now looks like we were not ripped off at all, or at least not to the extent we thought we were. The bill boards ain't worth much. I still think they're a bloody eyesore and an invasive cheapening of public space - but that's another issue.

Your dismissal of the bikes as rubbish says a lot more about you (you haven't seen one of the bikes yet, right?) than it says about the bikes. The hipsters around here, no doubt, think that the velibs should be fixies (or singles). The roadies might want something nice and light. You, as an MTBer seem to think that the bikes should look like the ones at your gaff. These bikes necessarily won;t suit our refined taste. The design is meant to look friendly and usable. It's a design for non-cyclists, and I think they'll like it. Anything faster than walking will feel plenty fast to them - our frame of reference is distorted by spending too much time on €1000+ machines.

Its noting got to do with the design, its got to do with the parts, they are cheap! Ive seen pictures of the bikes...enough for me to judge the cost.
Ive already said i dont really care as i wont use them. If thats the best we could do then fine.
The fact is we can do better.

Ive given my reasons why its a disaster...

If you settle for 2nd best thats your choice. personally i dont.

niceonetom

kona wrote: »

I can imagine placing a ad on a big sign in dublin isnt going to be cheap. Id say the weekly rent would be easaly into 1,000s. X by amount of signs, X time jc decaux have rented(or purchased) the sites for.

You looking at millions a year.

Now the bikes.

A per unit id say they cost e150 a pop. Now X by the amount. ad in the one off start up costs.

We are getting shafted. simple as.

You're just pulling this stuff out of your ass. How do you manage to construct and defend such strong opinions in the total absence of actual information? It must be wonderful to be so sure of things without having any recourse to, or need of, facts.

Vélo

niceonetom wrote: »

our frame of reference is distorted by spending too much time on €1000+ machines.

Ooh yeah!

Lumen

kona wrote: »

A per unit id say they cost e150 a pop.

No, they're €1000 a pop, according to today's Indo.

You really are speculating way outside your area of (no doubt considerable) expertise.

kona

niceonetom wrote: »

You're just pulling this stuff out of your ass. How do you manage to construct and defend such strong opinions in the total absence of actual information? It must be wonderful to be so sure of things without having any recourse to, or need of, facts.

I have asked for facts. Nobody has provided them. I dont work or am privilidged to advert costs.

Likewise how can you construct and defend your argument? have you ridden the bikes? are the in dublin? do you have facts to disprove what ive said?

kona

Lumen wrote: »

No, they're €1000 a pop, according to today's Indo.

You really are speculating way outside your area of (no doubt considerable) expertise.

do you believe they cost e1000 a pop.

Im more inclined to believe that as a inflated cost to make it look to the negotiator with DCC(who clearly doesnt know his bikes) that he is getting a good deal.

1k, your having a laugh.

would anybody here pay 1k for that(around e1400 retail actually)? this is a joke.

either that or they misplaced a decimal.

WicklowRacer

niceonetom wrote: »

You're just pulling this stuff out of your ass. How do you manage to construct and defend such strong opinions in the total absence of actual information? It must be wonderful to be so sure of things without having any recourse to, or need of, facts.

Thats his speciality.

Lumen

kona wrote: »

do you believe they cost e1000 a pop.

I'm not qualified to say, and I suspect neither are you, unless you have been party to the process of specifying and manufacturing the bikes.

kona

niceonetom wrote: »

our frame of reference is distorted by spending too much time on €1000+ machines.

looks like our 1,000+ machines, are in the same price range as these:o

kona

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not qualified to say, and I suspect neither are you, unless you have been party to the process of specifying and manufacturing the bikes.

I had no hand in the manufacture no, but surely as a cyclist and sombody who seems to have some common sense you can see that those bikes are not worth near to 1k cost.

kona

WicklowRacer wrote: »

Thats his speciality.

seems to be everybodys here not just mine.

Lumen

kona wrote: »

I had no hand in the manufacture no, but surely as a cyclist and sombody who seems to have some common sense you can see that those bikes are not worth near to 1k cost.

What do you mean "worth"? Would I pay that much for a similar bike for my own use? No. But I don't have the same requirements.

These things are supposed to be hired out up to 10 times a day for years on end. That's what JCD is paying for them. Why would they pay more than they needed to?

BeerNut

kona wrote: »

do you believe they cost e1000 a pop.

Im more inclined to believe that as a inflated cost to make it look to the negotiator with DCC(who clearly doesnt know his bikes) that he is getting a good deal.

1k, your having a laugh.

would anybody here pay 1k for that(around e1400 retail actually)? this is a joke.

either that or they misplaced a decimal.

Presumably the expensive bit isn't the frame-with-wheels, it's the locking station, the control kiosk and the software that runs it all. Quite possibly the money spent installing all the hardware in the ground is included in the €1,000 per bike as well.

kona

BeerNut wrote: »

Presumably the expensive bit isn't the frame-with-wheels, it's the locking station, the control kiosk and the software that runs it all. Quite possibly the money spent installing all the hardware in the ground is included in the €1,000 per bike as well.

how many bikes are there? hardly over 2,000 bikes.

lukester

The cost of replacing them in Paris is said to be 400 euro, that's if you rent one and it's stolen.

Judging by the bikes I rode, they felt very sturdy, and have plastic casings covering the drivetrain and a special locking mechanism. They also have a dynamo and lights.

They didn't feel cheap. 1000 euro sounds a bit steep, but bear in mind that you're not talking about a standard bike you can just go into a shop and buy. These are custom built for a specific purpose. They have to be tough as nails to withstand being ridden constantly every day.

Chips Lovell

kona wrote: »

I can imagine placing a ad on a big sign in dublin isnt going to be cheap. Id say the weekly rent would be easaly into 1,000s. X by amount of signs, X time jc decaux have rented(or purchased) the sites for.

You looking at millions a year.

So, we've established you're just guessing here about the figures.

From today's Indo:

In return for providing and maintaining 450 bicycles at 40 sites for 15 years, JC Decaux has been allowed to erect 120 advertising billboards across the city.

However, the company also had to remove 100 unauthorised billboards and provide a directions scheme, pointing tourists to places of interest in the capital, at a cost of €4m.

Now what the Indo doens't note is that they only received planning permission for about 70 of the new billboards. So they lose 100 big format billboards, gain 70 of them, have to pay for the bike scheme and another €4 million for the tourist scheme. Now, I don't know about anyone else, but that isn't screaming rip off to me. I think you'd need to get some figures together if you want to make a convincing argument.

kona wrote: »

I have asked for facts.

Who did you ask?

kona wrote: »

Likewise how can you construct and defend your argument? have you ridden the bikes? are the in dublin? do you have facts to disprove what ive said?

Asking someone to prove a negative is a logical fallacy.

Vélo

Do these bikes have some electronics/wiring?

I've never seen them but if they do that would increase the cost of the bike.

kona

lukester wrote: »

They have to be tough as nails to withstand being ridden constantly every day.

well judging by the Jc decaux trying to re-negotiate due to maintenance and replacement costs over budget, id say they arnt too sturdy.

also they are hardly custom, one off. How many are collectivley in all the citys invovled? once you have the design, the production is cheap and easy.

Any bike manufacturer given a cost per unit of 1,000 would produce a better bike. filling all criteria. IMO

kona

Lumen wrote: »

What do you mean "worth"? Would I pay that much for a similar bike for my own use? No. But I don't have the same requirements.

These things are supposed to be hired out up to 10 times a day for years on end. That's what JCD is paying for them. Why would they pay more than they needed to?

would they inflate the price to make it look like a better deal for DCC. You bet they would.

They arnt worth 1k at all, 150 production cost is alot for a generic noname to be mass produced bike.

kona

out of 20 pages there are possibly 2 pages of decent points. Its also had more views than the charter. All for a discussion that ends up as a messy pile of ****e.

The scheme is 2nd class, I want a first class scheme, ive given my points, im going to leave now,this thread is killing the will to live.

Vélo

kona wrote: »

out of 20 pages there are possibly 2 pages of decent points. Its also had more views than the charter. All for a discussion that ends up as a messy pile of ****e.

The scheme is 2nd class, I want a first class scheme, ive given my points, im going to leave now,this thread is killing the will to live.

And you take up the other 18 pages:D

kenmc

kona wrote: »

The scheme is 2nd class, I want a first class scheme

Well there's nothing stopping you from developing a business plan, finding backers, funding, sourcing the bikes and setting up a competitive rental scheme if you are so inclined. If you feel strongly enough about it, it's exactly what you should be doing instead of ranting on the internet. So how about it?

spurious

el tonto wrote: »

Now what the Indo doens't note is that they only received planning permission for about 70 of the new billboards. So they lose 100 big format billboards,

The problem is, JC Decaux don't take the billboards down.
They have a history of completely ignoring orders to do so, for years.


The bikes are a great idea and I hope they work - the problem is the JC Decaux 'deal'. No-one knows what the details of it are, they have not been made public, even at the request of councillors. Something very rum about it all.

maninasia

The problem is the lack of transparency...and we all know where that usually leads to in Ireland...brown envelopes floating around. If you hide financial details of ANY transaction there are always going to be people who take advantage along the way.
We've seen this time and time again in Ireland among politicians and businessmen. What's the big deal about doing a costing of every aspect of this scheme, then we could have an open debate??

But one thing I can say is that at least with this company JCDevaux we will have an action in the near future and the scheme has been 'paid up' as opposed to having had the scheme proposed and then cancelled as the gov't hits a massive credit crunch this year and next year...this time we just lucked out...

DePurpereWolf

Wasn't there supposed to be a tender sent out anyway?

We can't avail of the bicycle scheme here in the public sector because a purchase of a bike needs to be tendered, so they are trying to figure that out for 6 months now. But apparently a purchase of several million needs not to be tendered?

L'Enfer du Nord

kona wrote: »

I can imagine placing a ad on a big sign in dublin isnt going to be cheap. Id say the weekly rent would be easaly into 1,000s. X by amount of signs, X time jc decaux have rented(or purchased) the sites for.

You looking at millions a year.

Now the bikes.

A per unit id say they cost e150 a pop. Now X by the amount. ad in the one off start up costs.

We are getting shafted. simple as.

Kona, one might almost believe that you want the scheme to fail...:)

ROK ON

Just a query - what happens when on the bike if you get a puncture/mechanical of some description, and thus cant complete your journey on the bike.

What do they do in the other countries where they have these bikes.

I may use these bikes, in that there will be bikes at Hueston station and bikes close to where I work, so it would be handy for me some days to use these bikes.

blorg

kona wrote: »

Any bike manufacturer given a cost per unit of 1,000 would produce a better bike. filling all criteria. IMO

Why then has every single municipal bike scheme in Europe gone for the Paris-style bikes over your supposed alternative? I'd like to see a description of you proposed alternative incidentally, it was basically a hardtail MTB with slicks IIRC?