Subjectivity

jtsuited

Reading the thread about the TLA M4, I was struck by something that I think engineers, producers, musicians, etc (especially n00bs) should be very aware of - the subjectivity of gear.


I think with a lot of this gear, it really doesn't come down to how 'good' it is, or who uses it, but individual taste.
Hell, I even have a soft spot for the Mackie 32:8.

I find with most internet ramblings on gear, there's too much so and so uses this/that/the other and he's sold this many records and worked with x,y and z'.

What I think is needed is more 'I really love the sound that so and so gets on this record/that record/the other record, any idea what he's using and how he's using it?'.

Or even better 'I'm finding gear x,y and z really great for this,that and the other, and while there might be a billion and one other solutions, right now this is my buzz'.

Personally I think individual creative flair and diversity amongst the sound of records is a really important concept that is being lost somewhat (maybe because everyone's using the same plugins and gear).

So how about everyone post their own little individual preferences for gear, not necessarily based on the 'quality' of the gear but on your more personal feelings.

For instance, I love the Neve murky sound.

Yup it's not that clean, sometimes wildly inaccurate sounding but I love it. Maybe it's from growing up, first using some Neve channel strips (can't remember what desk they were pulled from). Whatever it is, I like it.

Likewise, there is some stuff I can't get into at all. Most SSL stuff for example, sounds too 80's and 'big' to me. It's great at what it does, but it's just not my cup of tea.

The TC Electronic finalizer drives me up the wall with it's sound.

I have a theory (a fairly silly one admittedly) that the reason a lot of people use it is because it just excites so many high frequencies that it makes them think their hearing is back to the standard it was at in their teenage years (and we all love being reminded of those heady carefree times).

There are some plugins and hardware people swear by (and I like their records), that I can't get into at all. Normally anything with the word 'precision' in it I don't like. And it's simply a personal 'artistic' or 'aesthetic' thing.

Same with monitors. Genelecs are great, don't particularly enjoy working with them. NS10's are a fantastic tool, but I much prefer the much less glamorous hs50m's.

I should work with a woofer (thinking about it 'logically), what with the music I do, but nowadays I don't. I just wait til I hear one of my tracks on a one of 'those' big club systems and if there is anything that needs fixing in the bottom end, I fix it.
Yet since I stopped working with a woofer, I haven't once had to go back and fix anything after hearing it on a Function One. Not once.
And it wasn't a problem with the acoustics in the room either. It's just one of those idiosyncratic 'arty' things.

Anywho, let's hear your tales of personal preferences, no matter how ridiculous or odd!

DamagedTrax

Mackie 32:8

mmm.. drive a 303 thru one of its channels and you have instant acid gratification. i love those old mackies

jtsuited

DamagedTrax wrote: »

mmm.. drive a 303 thru one of its channels and you have instant acid gratification. i love those old mackies

haha actually the one time I ever got my hands on a real 303, it was going into a Mackie.

Pity the feckin thing could neither keep time nor tune (maybe as a result of Roland's attempt to have every band's bass player replaced with a blessed TB!).

DamagedTrax

jtsuited wrote: »

Pity the feckin thing could neither keep time nor tune (maybe as a result of Roland's attempt to have every band's bass player replaced with a blessed TB!).

3 words - kenton midi conversion

fitz

Great post jt.

I like my hs50m's too, really solid sound with them and my Duet.

Having used a TLM103 for an albums worth of vocals, I have to say, I much prefer what it does for the quieter male vocal. I recently got an Audix i5 and it gives me much nicer results for louder, more aggresive vocals.

I really dislike 414's for vocals. I know it's a highly regarded mic, but I don't dig it on vocals, or acoustic guitar for that matter.

DamagedTrax

fitz wrote: »

I really dislike 414's for vocals. I know it's a highly regarded mic, but I don't dig it on vocals, or acoustic guitar for that matter.

214 is stunning on vox, a lot warmer than the 414 and 1/2 the price.

jtsuited

fitz wrote: »

I really dislike 414's for vocals. I know it's a highly regarded mic, but I don't dig it on vocals, or acoustic guitar for that matter.

I fcukin hate 414's. Hate them.

Don't care if they're sometimes called the 'BBC mics'.

In my rock days, recording my own vocals was the most depressing experience with 414's. Even shoving a 184 in front of me was better (I know, i know, a 184 on a male vocal is not cricket).

However, and here's where I'm going to be looked upon as wacko, I LOVE them on kick drums. Well my kick drum. Stick in the pad, set it to omni, wack it into the centre of the drum (while deflecting the strange looks from the people around me). Boom. Into the control room, and everyone looks aghast at how good it sounds.

Speaking of Kick drums, the D112. Jaysus.

I'd rather tap the top of a 58 with my finger and sample it than use a D112 on kick (similar sound imo). The last band I worked with had tracked their kick with a D112. Worse than that, they did some really stupid isolation trick so the kick wouldn't spill into anything else (they had seen it done in a Tool documentary I think).

Anywho, after 3 days of trying to get the kick to poke through in the mix, we had to pull out the drumagog. Probably would have been fine if I had had a bit of kick spill in the overheads (bands recording themselves should not do anything they see in studio documentaries).

My mate was buying some Rode NT3's a few years ago, and we got a lend of them, used them as overheads with a pair of 184's and even a pair of DPA 4006's. Blind tested them and we liked the NT3's best, the 184's second and the 4006's third. Which is inversely proportional to the price (quite dramatically so).

But it wasn't a quality thing, it was, again, what suited the sound we were going for. NT3's are quite metallic sounding and it gave the cymbals a horrible harshness that was actually (in the context of the track we were doing) perfect. We pulled a little of the nastiness out at mixing of course.

Mics are a real 'personal preference' area just like everything else.

jtsuited

fitz wrote: »

I like my hs50m's too, really solid sound with them and my Duet.

the 'translation to other systems factor' (haha like toptrumps) on the hs50m's is really phenomenal. Heard one of my tracks in the Button Factory there about a week ago, and jaysus I was just 'wtf, how the hell can you go from two little speakers to a stupidly massive system like this?'

Reasons I couldn't live without my duet:

1. The D/A conversion (an understandable reason)
2. The way it's the same colour as my MBP (not a very good reason [in fact a fairly rubbish reason] , but we're artists...man):p

and most of all -
3. The fact that there's one big feckin knob on it. And a simple meter. Makes me feel like I'm King of the World!!

jtsuited

oh yeah forgot to mention. since i got my hs50m's, I have not used my 8030A's once. Didn't even move them to my new studio.

frobisher

jtsuited wrote: »

the 'translation to other systems factor' (haha like toptrumps)

Now that's a set of top trumps I'd buy!

My sleeper gold gear would be the LynxOne sound card I had. Isn't old, cheap digital gear supposed o be crap? Not this, I loved it!

jtsuited

frobisher wrote: »

Now that's a set of top trumps I'd buy!

actually I have a deck of Neumann toptrumps. They were being given out at the the AES conference a couple of years ago. The year before they had a packet of mints that looked like a 184 (I kid you not).

SeanHurley

I don't like D112s on kicks either, I prefer to use a combo of a 57 and NS10 cone. Works really well.

In general tho, I think with gear there is a certain threshold of quality you need to pass if you are looking for release quality results, however, once you pass this threshold it's about personal taste. Essentially we are talking about tools here and all you want is good quality tools that will last ya. However, tools don't get results it's the engineer using the tools.

madtheory

Nice thread jtsuited!

jtsuited wrote: »

I fcukin hate 414's. Hate them.

Yes, it's often awful on vocals. BUT, it does work brilliantly on some people, and it depends on which 414 you're using!

AKG have a very annoying policy of using the same model number for mics that are totally different. I can't keep up! For example, the current 451 is an electret with a different mounting to the original, which was a screw in/ sprung condenser. The original is better. Neumann did something similar with the KM184. I dunno why, but it's not as good as a KM84.

The C414 EB is quite close to the original C12 (same capsule, different electronics), but the 414TL2 and B-ULS have a smaller capsule. The C12 VR is totally different to the C12.

The 414 EB is fab on vocals, so is a C12.

But ya, for bass instruments, the 414 B-ULS is super. I use it on upright bass and bass cabs. It's also great as a drum overhead, very detailed.

As for bass drum mics- the D112 can only do one sound, whereas the D12 can do that sound and a whole lot more.

ICN

I'm all in the box - Apart from my Focusrite Saffire (does that count?) - So I dont really have the same experience of desks etc..


But I have HS50M's too & I love them. Really happy that I bought them.

seannash

just got my hs50s today for 400 aus dollars.bargain:pac:

PaulBrewer

Interesting thread - unsurprisingly I disagree with a lot of it!

Subjectivity by itself is of little use regarding equipment.


Here's an extreme example of it's uselessness by itself -

'Well Conor, which side of a 414 shall we point at the vocals?'

'The Black side!' says Conor, 'black's my favourite colour.'

A purely subjective decision coming to what would generally be considered a 'wrong' decision.


Subjectivity is only relevant when it's combined with knowledge and experience.


The internet is indeed full of nonsense so credentials are vitally important.

In an area I wouldn't be familiar with it's to the experts I'm drawn to to extract the info I need to make a balanced judgement. That's still the case in the music biz for me - I ask the experts ( a recent thread of Frobs regarding acoustics is an example) . Only a fool does otherwise.

An amateurish approach to me would be some of the statements in this thread 'I hate this mic' which a few of you have jumped on.

A more experienced engineer will know that the mic alone doesn't make the sound - the whole chain does. So if you don't have the experience to know that your proclamation is devalued. A 414 as an example sounds completely different depending on what it's plugged into and what it's pointed at.

Instead of saying 'I hate a 414' and more inquisitive approach would be ' I hate a 414 at the moment - but I see pros using them all the time - let me understand how and why'



Really it comes down to -

Do you want to listen to the Doctors or the Quacks ....?

ps Conor is my 6 year old nephew.

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Instead of saying 'I hate a 414' and more inquisitive approach would be ' I hate a 414 at the moment - but I see pros using them all the time - let me understand how and why'

and therein lies the huge problem with your outlook.

let's take the example of the 414. by the way I'm referring to 3 of the different builds of them.

some pros like them. some don't. either way, doesn't make a shred of difference to me not liking them (and FYI I've used them with many a different pre, compressor and converter). I know what I don't like about them. I don't like the way they sound.

The fact that you can tell me 'so and so uses them, feck it, the whole bbc institution use them a lot, and these guys are pros' makes no difference. Guess why?
Because I'm not using a 414 in an aspirational sense. I'm using it for achieving the results I want.

Wow, someone who makes a living from doing sound swears by it? Couldn't care less.

What works for some people doesn't work for others. Whether they are professional or not bears no relevance.

If your 6 year old nephew wants to sing into the wrong side of a 414 and it's his job to make that decision (as in he's the engineer for the project), then THAT is the 'correct' decision.


Obviously it's not using the equipment in the way it was intended, but it is not 'wrong'. If it is, then using an ns10 woofer as a kick mic is 'wrong'. Turning a guitar's input up on certain amps so high that it clips the signal is 'wrong'.

And more to the point, many of things we've mentioned on this thread are 'wrong'. But as you can see, the posters that have said such things know that these things are 'wrong' (if that is indeed the correct word).
But realise that it's entirely irrelevant as if you read the title of the thread we are talking about the importance (and indeed the benefits) of Subjectivity.

DamagedTrax

some pros like them. some don't. either way, doesn't make a shred of difference to me not liking them (and FYI I've used them with many a different pre, compressor and converter). I know what I don't like about them. I don't like the way they sound.

same as. ive used them on vocals thru a neve pre, vintech pre, straight into an amek desk, thru an 1176 etc.

i personally dont like them on vocals.. yet i love them on overheads.

its all subjective to the person and their like or dislike of the sound, its not subjective to their experience.

ICN

seannash wrote: »

just got my hs50s today for 400 aus dollars.bargain:pac:

Best of luck with them Man!!

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

its not subjective to their experience.

So your decisions don't change with time? What you thought about recording on your first day is the same as it is now?

I hope not!

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

and therein lies the huge problem with your outlook.

let's take the example of the 414. by the way I'm referring to 3 of the different builds of them.

some pros like them. some don't. either way, doesn't make a shred of difference to me not liking them (and FYI I've used them with many a different pre, compressor and converter). I know what I don't like about them. I don't like the way they sound.

The fact that you can tell me 'so and so uses them, feck it, the whole bbc institution use them a lot, and these guys are pros' makes no difference. Guess why?
Because I'm not using a 414 in an aspirational sense. I'm using it for achieving the results I want.

Wow, someone who makes a living from doing sound swears by it? Couldn't care less.

What works for some people doesn't work for others. Whether they are professional or not bears no relevance.

If your 6 year old nephew wants to sing into the wrong side of a 414 and it's his job to make that decision (as in he's the engineer for the project), then THAT is the 'correct' decision.


Obviously it's not using the equipment in the way it was intended, but it is not 'wrong'. If it is, then using an ns10 woofer as a kick mic is 'wrong'. Turning a guitar's input up on certain amps so high that it clips the signal is 'wrong'.

And more to the point, many of things we've mentioned on this thread are 'wrong'. But as you can see, the posters that have said such things know that these things are 'wrong' (if that is indeed the correct word).
But realise that it's entirely irrelevant as if you read the title of the thread we are talking about the importance (and indeed the benefits) of Subjectivity.

Shutting off years of the industry's experience seems a small minded way to operate.

What's to loose understanding other's ideas - there's much to gain in my experience.

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

So your decisions don't change with time? What you thought about recording on your first day is the same as it is now?

I hope not!

totally twisting my words. of course your decisions will change with time but liking a particular sound at a particular time has nothing to do with experience.

are you really trying to say that after recording since the mid 90's (on both sides of the glass) that my not liking the 414 on vocals is lack of experience? of course its not.. its just what i like (or dont as the case may be) at any given moment in time. im not a huge fan of the u87 either.
i love the re27 on guitars, does that mean i lack experience? or does it just mean that i like the sound of an re27 on a guitar cab?

jtsuited

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i personally dont like them on vocals.. yet i love them on overheads.

its all subjective to the person and their like or dislike of the sound, its not subjective to their experience.

nicely said.
I actually like them on overheads (with a very coloured pre) but prefer other mics better for that purpose.


Am I right or wrong?
I'm both.

Despite what a lot of people would like to think, 'sound engineering' isn't a massively complex subject. It certainly doesn't need to have experts in the same way as Mr. Brewer's 'Doctors and Quacks' situation does.

For two reasons:
1. It's not a fraction as complicated as human medicine (don't fool yourself into thinking you're some sort of physics genius because you can figure out room modes in the blink of an eye).

2. Nobody's gonna die from listening to an audio 'quack' (non-expert is what i think he meant).

One of the reasons we have experts and authorities in very complex things like medicine, aviation engineering, nuclear physics, and all that, is because it is VITAL to the safety of many people to have such distinctions.

If there's not that maintained archaic authorative hierarchy, people will get sick and die, planes will crash, and nuclear reactors will malfunction, possibly wiping out every bit of life on earth.

Making records is thankfully not such a high pressured or, in the grand scheme of things, important area.

DamagedTrax

100% agree

as someone great once told me - in audio the only reason you need to learn the rules is so that you can break them.

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

I fcukin hate 414's. Hate them.

jtsuited wrote: »

I actually like them

???????????????????????????????????????????????????

Can you even half understand how idiotic this looks?


Let's keep this simple, you're on my IGNORE list from here on ...

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

as someone great once told me - in audio the only reason you need to learn the rules is so that you can break them.

That's my point ... Learn em first!

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

That's my point ... Learn em first!

ok, so after years of learning them ive decided im not fond of 414s on vocals. thats got no bearing on what ive learned though. you cant teach someone to like or not like a sound. they either do or dont.

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

What's to loose understanding other's ideas - there's much to gain in my experience.

Well judging by your spelling of lose, the ability to differentiate between homophones.:pac::pac::pac:

Zing. That's for all the souls who have had to endure the wrath of Brewer's pedantry!

But seriously, what's to lose?
Good question. And the answer is time.

Our lives are of a finite length. Our music making lives also. Spending time thinking, talking and writing about what other high status people use is a serious distraction from the real issues.

I might have mentioned before that I have a friend who is a serious gear head. He has bought and sold more gear than I'd say many Pro-audio dealerships have.
He has tried every mic, every pre, every converter, every plugin. He has released NOTHING in the past 3 years. He has in some ways been a victim of gearlust and obsession with getting the best stuff.
That would be fine if acquiring gear was his ludicrously expensive hobby. But the guy's a real artist.

I know, I know, talking about music production distracting you from the real issues might seem a bit much comin from a right aul yapper like myself.

But strangely enough, I work and post here at the same time. And today I'm dying with the flu so I can't work too hard (hence my mega-activity on boards today!).

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Can you even half understand how idiotic this looks?


Let's keep this simple, you're on my IGNORE list from here on ...

Context. I was referring to them in the context of Fitz's post which was discussing vocals.

Wow a little bit of hyperbole and suddenly I'm on your ignore list. Lighten up ffs.

DamagedTrax

**whispers** i dont think he's listening to you anymore :pac:

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

???????????????????????????????????????????????????

Can you even half understand how idiotic this looks?


Let's keep this simple, you're on my IGNORE list from here on ...

why, because you suddenly don't have a sig?



Precisely the sh1te we don't need around here.

DamagedTrax

can someone ban the use of the word "hyperbole".. please?

i dont like it, even the sound of it makes me feel uneasy. not a nice word at all. very german.

jtsuited

DamagedTrax wrote: »

can someone ban the use of the word "hyperbole".. please?

i dont like it, even the sound of it makes me feel uneasy. not a nice word at all. very german.

haha, up until about two years ago, I thought it was pronounced 'hyper-bowl'!!!

Just shows you the intellectual standard of my daily verbal communication. think I even used it once or twice like that, nobody corrected me. then again they mightn't have actually been listening.:pac:

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

**whispers** i dont think he's listening to you anymore :pac:

DamagedTrax

jtsuited wrote: »

haha, up until about two years ago, I thought it was pronounced 'hyper-bowl'!!!

erm.. it isnt? ok.. maybe im hating it for the wrong reasons :eek:

hows it pronounced?

jtsuited

DamagedTrax wrote: »

im not a huge fan of the u87 either.

BLASPHEMY!!!!!
It's easier to list the records not made with that mic!!

Ah no, joking. I love em on some male vocals, hate em on some female vocals, like em on a certain piano I used, hate em on male singers under 5'6 (that's actually a joke but thinking about it now, the singers it really didn't work with were all fairly short!) .

Whopper thread now!!

jtsuited

DamagedTrax wrote: »

erm.. it isnt? ok.. maybe im hating it for the wrong reasons :eek:

hows it pronounced?

Hyperbole (pronounced /haɪˈpɝːbəli/ hye-PER-buh-lee; "HYE-per-bowl" is a common mispronunciation)

edit: haha ironically i forgot to state my source:
Wikipedia!

DamagedTrax

still an ugly word.. like scrotum

jtsuited

DamagedTrax wrote: »

still an ugly word.. like scrotum

dude, say it like this 'hy-PURH-bull-eigh'.

completely changes the sound of it.

yeah 'scrotum' is a right minger of a word.

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

ok, so after years of learning them ive decided im not fond of 414s on vocals. thats got no bearing on what ive learned though. you cant teach someone to like or not like a sound. they either do or dont.

I suppose using the 414 example doesn't bring home the point.

Perhaps Monitors might be help me explain myself better.

When you start off you're impressed by bigness - the ole HiFi sound of cheaper and some not so cheap speakers - great for impressing punters and fun to listen to.

However with experience you learn that the enjoyment factor is less important and that really it's what the speakers make you do is what is really important.

What speakers you then pick are based on what you like plus what you've learned.

That's what I meant by Subjectivity (I like) with experience (based on what I 've learned)

Seems like a simple idea to me - have I expressed it better now?

fitz

Guys, keep it the personal comments off this thread and stay on topic. Any more personal jabs will result in people taking enforced breaks from the board. Play nice...

tweeky

Would an objective opinion not be better than a subjective one?

On the vocal mic issue, if you hated a 414 but it was the best mic for that specific job, vocal /overhead or otherwise wouldn't it be foolish not to use it?

jtsuited

tweeky wrote: »

Would an objective opinion not be better than a subjective one?

On the vocal mic issue, if you hated a 414 but it was the best mic for that specific job, vocal /overhead or otherwise wouldn't it be foolish not to use it?

of course.

DamagedTrax

tweeky wrote: »

Would an objective opinion not be better than a subjective one?

On the vocal mic issue, if you hated a 414 but it was the best mic for that specific job, vocal /overhead or otherwise wouldn't it be foolish not to use it?

yes definitly. if the vocal calls for it then its the obvious choice.

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

yes definitly. if the vocal calls for it then its the obvious choice.

Oh right ....;)

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Oh right ....;)

but that doesnt mean i like it on vocals in general.

stop being pendantic paul, you know exactly what i mean :P

fitz

Cleaned up some of the waffle out of this thread.

I think it's perfectly valid for someone to dislike a piece of gear based on their experience with it. That's not to say they can't see that it's a quality piece of gear. I know the 414 is a good mic, but as I said, I dislike it for vocals. The mic has a character which I just don't dig for that application.

Can someone genuinely say that it's not okay for me to say that I don't like Telecasters for playing jazz? It doesn't matter that I haven't tried one through every amp possible. I'm familiar enough with the sound of a Telecaster to know that I don't like it for that application. Am I saying they're not a good guitar? Nope.

I think this is clearly the sentiment that has pervaded the thread.

The monitor analogy doesn't hold water for me either.
If you can make decisions using the monitors you have that results in you getting mixes that transfer well to other playback systems, great!
Would more expensive monitors make it easier? Yes, I'm sure there's a valid point there.

BUT!

Friend of mine has a great set of Westlake monitors. Really expensive, really nice.
He has a set of hs50m's in his other place. He produces great mixes using both, because he knows them both, and knows what he needs to hear in the mix coming out of each for it to give excellent, consistently translatable results.

There's a lot to be said for the results that are achievable with good gear that you know very well. Good gear doesn't mean pro gear. I'm talking about pro-sumer (I hate that word) stuff like the HS series. Of course a set of Focal Twins, B&W's or Westlakes are better kit, but that's largely irrelevant. Can you produce results on what you have? If yes, great.

That's slightly off topic though.
Subjectivity does of course come into gear.
I might recognise that a Prism EQ is a really well made and effective EQ. Doesn't mean I have to like it.
I might prefer a Pultec. It's down to taste. Even usability is a factor!
If you have two pieces of equally effective gear, with pretty much the same character, and one is better laid out and easier to use, it's not a case of pro-gear vs. amatuer gear or any permutation of the two...it's down to personal preference. What are you more comfortable using? If you're comfortable using it, you're more likely to get the results you want.

PaulBrewer

The world, and I hope the forum has room for opposing opinions.

fitz wrote: »

Friend of mine has a great set of Westlake monitors. Really expensive, really nice.

Do you know which ones?

I remember they use to fire bits of it's internal damping at you through it's port. You'd be listening to a kick and BANG you'd have a mouthful of plastic wool!

fitz

PaulBrewer wrote: »

The world, and I hope the forum has room for opposing opinions.

As long as they're presented in a civil manner, there's more than enough room for everyone's opinions!

Do you know which ones?

I remember they use to fire bits of it's internal damping at you through it's port. You'd be listening to a kick and BANG you'd have a mouthful of plastic wool!

Not sure, but ne never mentioned them spitting wool, that's for sure...

PaulBrewer

fitz wrote: »

As long as they're presented in a civil manner, there's more than enough room for everyone's opinions!



Not sure, but ne never mentioned them spitting wool, that's for sure...

It's probably when they were new - they've run out of ammo!

We used have them in a studio in Harold's Cross and there were bigger ones in Westland and Ropewalk. I think Tweeky got shot a few times too

jtsuited

i got shot by a set of westlakes a good few times as a kid. a rite of passage imo. taught me a lesson about walking around the back to all those coloured-y wires.