Christening Dispute

tinytina

Neither my husband nor myself are religious. I was brought up R.C and he was brought up Church of Ireland. Our first child was baptised R.C. Hubby is now insistent that the 2nd child will not baptised at all.

This will cause huge issues with my family, issues that will last a long time, and cause genuine hurt and upset. I don't like to cause that hurt to people. I also don't feel we have to rub our atheism in people's noses to make a stand. I want to have a baptism, nominate some godparents and then bring up the kids as we see fit without a big issue hanging over us.

My husband is not giving me an option in this, and this is the hardest part to accept. When I explained the hurt it would cause in my family, he turned his back on me and claimed he was being manipulated by me.

He is a stubborn man, and I don't imagine he will be changing his mind. And I feel sick at the thoughts of the hurt it will cause. I will not be able to lie and say to my family that this is a joint decision, so he will be cast as the baddy, which is not what I want either. I am so hurt, and he is carrying on all happy families, as though the decision is made and I should just accept it. I can't bring myself to be nice to him at the moment. This is not a conscious effort on my part to be nasty, but I feel powerless, and that I am just expected to put up and shut up.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

littlebitdull

You could have a welcome baby party, nominate 'godparents' - perhaps even have some sort of naming/welcoming 'cermony' during the party, and then continue to raise the child without an issue hanging over you.

The children are as much your husband's children as they are yours, so you really do have to acept that his input is as important, and as valid as yours.

If your reasons for the christening are just to pacify your extended family, and not for deep held beliefs within your own immediate family - ie you , your husband and your other children - well to be honest I think you have to stick to your own beliefs and not someone elses.

I understand where you are coming from in not wanting to have this become a big problem within your extended family, but you may be suprissed how well they accept it - if you give them the chance to.

Just my thoughts anyway ....

bazwaldo

Would you still want the child to be christened if there wasn't any pressure from your family? If no, then I think I have to stand by your beliefs and not christen the child. Its not a case of causing hurt, but standing up to your family and saying the you don't believe in being an R.C and won't be bringing your child up as one. If you are honest about it, then if they have a problem with that, then they need get over it. I'm far from one that likes to have agro, but sometimes you need to not give in.

On the other hand, if you want the christening regardless, then maybe you do believe in being R.C, at least a bit.

Quality

My husband is COI and I am RC, our kids are RC.

Will your kids be going to a RC school? Will you have a problem getting the 2nd child into the school if they are not baptised? Will this mean they have to go two seperate schools.

One of the main reasons we decided on RC, was for the schools reason. I know his parents are hurt by it... but it was our decision and not for them to interfere.

nesf

I'd think it's more complicated than just being the parents' decision. I'd value the input by both set of grandparents in most aspects of my child's life and would try to find common ground where we disagree, not just take the position that it's mine and my wife's decision and they have to live with it.

For things like baptism it's an extremely complex question. This isn't similar to something like picking a school or what the child should and should not eat, for a religious person not baptising a child denies that child entrance into the faith and is not a decision to be made lightly. You also need to consider how you're going to explain to this child why their sibling was baptised and they weren't.

There's also the concern that someone may not be religious themselves but respects others who are. So while you personally might not observe the faith, you may not object to your parents raising the child in said faith and may even support them in it.

Moonbeam

Stand up for yourself.
Sit down with him and explain why youwould like the kids baptised and listen to his reasons for not.
It is his child too and at some stage you have to take responsibility and do things beacuse you want to and not because your parents expect you to.
If you are not religious why do you want to baptise your child?

deisemum

Your husband is as much a parent as yourself and as the father of your children then his opinion should be just as valid as your own. His opinion is far more important than your own family's view. This should be worked out between the two of ye and the extended families opinion shouldn't come into it.

From your post you seem more worried about upsetting your family yet you don't seem to have a problem about upsetting your husband.

You say you're not religious and refer to your atheism yet you want to have your child baptised, if that's your belief then I don't think having your child baptised just to keep your family happy is right when it's going to cause upset for your husband.

nesf

deisemum wrote: »

This should be worked out between the two of ye and the extended families opinion shouldn't come into it.

I respectfully disagree. I don't personally feel that kind of disconnect between myself and my wife and our families and while I can fully respect those that do, and can appreciate the kinds of situations where it happens and when it needs to happen but I don't think it's the default position that should be taken if possible.

tinytina

Thanks for responses. It does help me gauge whether I am being reasonable or not. To clarify a few points.

I want my child baptised for a variety of reasons. [1] Partially for assimilation into school - it is a small rural school. [2] Godparents, I had wanted to acknowledge some people who have been very prominent in our childrens' lives by making them Godparents. [3] I am atheist, it is not exactly a comfort to me, but it is what I believe. I think perhaps it is a bit stark and harsh for kids, and it is certainly not something I will be drumming into them. They will come to their own decisions when they are old enough.

I personally don't agree with doing what we feel like and letting everyone else sod off. Life is more intertwined and complicated that that. My parents supported us hugely and for several periods we actually lived with them. They do not live near us, and will come visit to babysit at the drop of a hat if we ask. They have been very involved, caring and giving towards us. They have not made demands, this is not a demand from them. I know how important their faith is to them, and how hard it will be for them. They will feel that they have failed their grandchild, and that what we are doing is genuinely wrong.

A further bit of background info. We argued a few months back over whether the child would be RC or COI. He was insistent on COI, I prefered both kids to be the same, esp since going to a RC school. In the end, I gave in. When I went to make arrangements for a COI christening, hubby backed out of that. My frustration lies in the fact that I am not getting a choice in this. And as mentioned I won't be able to support my husband on this either with the family or if the kids question it. It is a decision that has been taken away from me, and I think it is the wrong decision in our case.

The suggestion of the naming ceremony was very helpful, but if we are not going to have a baptism, then in our case, I think a naming ceremony is just highlighting the absence of God. Thanks again.

Mike 1972

This will cause huge issues with my family

Its not their child its yours and your husbands.

Do You (and I mean YOU not your family) want your child christened ?

If yes then you need to discuss this with your husband (although ideally its something you should have agreed on long before now)

If no then theres no problem.

bazwaldo

I can see the benefits of the christening
1 - Helps in school (either by getting in or not being different)
2 - Not differing from your other child
3 - Keeps your side happy and allows for godparents

But why is your husband so adamant about the child not being baptised. Seems strange as he agreed before that the child could be COI. Seems a bit unfair. He got his way, then he changes his mind to something else, and wants his way again.

What are his reasons now? If being baptised will be a good thing, then whats the problem.

stovelid

We were in the exact same situation and gave in to the christening out of respect to my in-laws whom I love. Part of the 'deal' was that we have agreed not to go any further down that road though, certainly not with our preferred choice of future primary school. But I will be honest, I'm still quite resentful about having acquiesced in what I see as a hypocritical gesture regarding my child. I did, however, promise that once the decision was made, I wouldn't argue about it which I haven't, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel hurt and compromised.

Mike 1972

1 - Helps in school (either by getting in or not being different)

Do you really want to send your kids to a school where being different (in any respect) is likely to be an isssue

Nevyn

Oh please being different is't bad and kids will always find something if they really want to say that a child is different.

These days the chances are that you child will not be the only non catholic/christian in the class.

nesf

Thaedydal wrote: »

These days the chances are that you child will not be the only non catholic/christian in the class.

That depends on the part of the country to be honest. There are far fewer actively atheist parents in rural areas from my personal experience.

Nevyn

There are more option then just christian and atheist.

Mike 1972

That depends on the part of the country to be honest. There are far fewer actively atheist parents in rural areas from my personal experience.

Fair enough but child is hardly going to have "NOT BAPTISED" tattooed across his/her forehead.

nesf

Thaedydal wrote: »

There are more option then just christian and atheist.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Fair enough but child is hardly going to have "NOT BAPTISED" tattooed across his/her forehead.

Indeed, my point was only that many areas of the country are still fairly homogeneously R.C./CoI faith wise compared to urban areas where things have changed a lot in the past two decades.

byhookorbycrook

nesf wrote: »

Indeed, my point was only that many areas of the country are still fairly homogeneously R.C./CoI faith wise compared to urban areas where things have changed a lot in the past two decades.

As long as people who are not religious and baptise children so they won't "feel different"this will continue to be the case. At a baptism, parents undertake to bring the child up in the faith,seems a long way to go so the child "fits in".

nesf

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

As long as people who are not religious and baptise children so they won't "feel different"this will continue to be the case. At a baptism, parents undertake to bring the child up in the faith,seems a long way to go so the child "fits in".

Agreed, I wouldn't baptise a child so they could fit in and don't view it as a good reason to do it.

tinytina

Just wondering how many people who "wouldn't baptise a child just to fit in" walked down the aisle of a church to get married because it was a pretty church, or it was 'traditional' or it was what parents wanted?

We got married in registry office - it was what both of us wanted. Parents wouldn't have choosen it, but they had to accept it, so I am quite happy to take my own line on things and have certainly done so in the past.

Also in relation to not having 'not baptised' tatooed on their forehead, as was mentioned. It is a rural school, everyone here mayaswell have a great big stamp on their forehead, whether we like it or not. There are 3 foreign kids in the whole primary school.

Will discuss option of naming ceremony. Will also let hubby explain to both sets of parents why he doesn't want to christen. Thanks to all.

byhookorbycrook

Some children wear glasses, some don't ,sooner or later a child will be "different",in some way. If the child hasn't been baptised do you think other parents know or if they do, care?

Dades

tinytina wrote: »

Just wondering how many people who "wouldn't baptise a child just to fit in" walked down the aisle of a church to get married because it was a pretty church, or it was 'traditional' or it was what parents wanted?

My daughter was baptised recently. While the main reason was wife and families are RC - having the child "fit in" was certainly not one of them. Being baptised will help her get in to our local school but after that she's mine.

My own in-laws are fantastic - it would be very short-sighted of me to have denied them their day out. Does your family take a pro-active role in raising the children? Have they earned a say in what you do with your child?

di11on

In my opinion, there is only one reason and one reason alone to baptise your child into a particular faith and that's if you believe and you intend to bring your child up in that faith. After all, that is what you commit to doing on the day.

To do otherwise is to compromise yourself and belittle the faith concerned.

In this country, we have it all ar$e ways. We're confused and religion is mixed up with everything.

Honestly, I've seen threads in this forum along all of the following lines:

- Should we have an RC church marriage - I want my child to go to school X
- Should we get married - I want my child to go to school X
- Should we get our child baptised, I want my child to go to school...

I know in your case, OP, it is the family that is putting pressure on you, but do you really want to promise, in front of many many people, to raise your child in a faith when: 1. You don't believe it and 2. you don't actually intend to bring your child up in that faith?

My advice is to be strong and hold on to your convictions. You'll feel better about yourself. If your family choose to be hurt and offended, that's their promblem.

Your child can choose to be baptised him/herself any time he/she likes. This would actually be more meaningful, imo.

My 2c.

nesf

di11on wrote: »

In my opinion, there is only one reason and one reason alone to baptise your child into a particular faith and that's if you believe and you intend to bring your child up in that faith. After all, that is what you commit to doing on the day.

Or you intend to allow other family members to raise the child in the faith. I don't think it necessarily has to be the intent of the parents to do so.

Tim Robbins

tinytina wrote: »

Any thoughts much appreciated.

I'm atheist. I try not to rub people's faces in it but I can't stand if:
1. I have to pretend I believe in something I don't.
2. Lie about something serious.
3. Someone tries to force their religious views on me.

So from your husbands perspectives I see all three issues.
Ask him what are the reasons why he doesn't want to go through with it? If it is because he sincerely doesn't want to be a hypocrite and make a mockery of the Priest, I applaud him.

The only reason why your parents, family would be hurt is because so many adults continue playings these silly games and being complete hypocrites. If more people like your husband stood up to this nonsense, people would get used to the idea that not everyone believes in baptism and it wouldn't be such a big deal.

HiKite

hi folks,

I'm typing away with a little 7 week old strapped to my chest, anything to free up my hands! Both my partner and I are into the idea of a Celtic Naming Ceremony, does anyone know of a person who could perform it?

We just moved to "the country" near Sligo and there are only two RC schools and one COI near us. Surely we won't have to baptise our son, in order for him to attend school? I'm totally against going through this process, just to appease relations etc. The flip side is: as there are no non-denominational schools here, will we be making life hard for him, like when everybody else is going through the different milestones, he will not?

I really liked the idea of him making his own choice, and having himself baptised, maybe this will happen in due course. In the meantime, is there any legal alternative to baptism?

Cheers,

e.

~me~

Futuresounds wrote: »

hi folks,

I'm typing away with a little 7 week old strapped to my chest, anything to free up my hands! Both my partner and I are into the idea of a Celtic Naming Ceremony, does anyone know of a person who could perform it?

We just moved to "the country" near Sligo and there are only two RC schools and one COI near us. Surely we won't have to baptise our son, in order for him to attend school? I'm totally against going through this process, just to appease relations etc. The flip side is: as there are no non-denominational schools here, will we be making life hard for him, like when everybody else is going through the different milestones, he will not?

I really liked the idea of him making his own choice, and having himself baptised, maybe this will happen in due course. In the meantime, is there any legal alternative to baptism?

Cheers,

e.

hey sorry to but in and not answer the question but i was interested in the 'milestone' point!

this was a worry for me when deciding on not getting my daughter baptised, i didnt want her feeling left out on communions etc. so my partner suggested that when the time comes we'll talk to her about the meaning behind it and if she wants to do it for the religious values then we'll allow her to but if its for the dress and the big day we'll just celebrate the day without the church part (if shes not choosing it for religous values then she has no reason to be at the church anyway!).

maybe you could do this too. cause it is a big deal but half the kids only see it as a big day which you can have without religion tbf! it'll prob be hard but its best that he does it for the right reasons and by himself like you said.

TequilaMockingBird

Futuresounds wrote: »

hi folks,

I'm typing away with a little 7 week old strapped to my chest, anything to free up my hands! Both my partner and I are into the idea of a Celtic Naming Ceremony, does anyone know of a person who could perform it?

We just moved to "the country" near Sligo and there are only two RC schools and one COI near us. Surely we won't have to baptise our son, in order for him to attend school? I'm totally against going through this process, just to appease relations etc. The flip side is: as there are no non-denominational schools here, will we be making life hard for him, like when everybody else is going through the different milestones, he will not?

I really liked the idea of him making his own choice, and having himself baptised, maybe this will happen in due course. In the meantime, is there any legal alternative to baptism?

Cheers,

e.

Congrats Futuresounds!

There is the School Project which is non-denominational in Sligo town, if you are willing to travel in. My daughter goes to a RC school, the only time she needed to produce her Baptismal Cert was for First Holy Communion. Maybe have a chat with the schools you are interested in, they may allow non catholic pupils if you are quite far outside town.

HiKite

Having a theological debate with my girlfriend's mum about the whole baptism thing; telling her that things have moved on since she was at school :0) Will have to put my foot down soon :pac:

I'll definitely check out the School Project, great to know it's there, thanks TequilaMockingBird. We're in Skreen by the way.

And exactly, our son should make his own choices, I'm totally with ~me~ on that. Cheers..

LegacyUser

Seriously. The OP is now putting this worry in peoples heads when it isn't true at all.

I wasn't baptised. I lived in a rural area. I went to a catholic primary school and secondary school, no questions asked.

Where is the idea coming from that you have to be catholic to attend a catholic school? That's ridiculous! They've NEVER been catholic only,they're just called catholic schools because that is their primary religion. They are very accepting of other religions. Do you think they are going to interrogate your child about being baptised or not?

I personally wouldn't let my parents or in-laws influence my views. It is yours and your husbands choice to make. Religion these days is all about silly traditions and days out when people don't mean a word of what they say. That is so far removed from what christianity actually means it's crazy. If you are going to go into the church and mean what you say then do it.

luohaoran

Just happened on this thread by chance, and instantly realised it was started by my lovely wife. I see the thread is now stale, but for posterity...
(sorry but since the thread is old , I'm going to give all my opinion in one big post.)

Obviously, I'd have to disagree with the picture my wife cast of my stance(s) on the issues she raised.
Put simply, I've always held the view that my number one preference is to have our children brought up in sync with our own ideals.
Its a long and sometimes painful road coming from a religious upbringing to being atheist, or anti-theist. One could argue that that journey is worth making for ones personal development, but it makes better logic imho to not create mountains to climb for yourself, or your kids. Its better to help them on their way to dealing with their own modern day mountains. I'd like religion to be a thing of the past.
I broadly agree with everything everyone has said, I think all your opinions are correct, and I believe you've all contributed to my wife's coming to terms with my irreconcilable position. The decision, is alas, black or white, to baptise or not to baptise child #2. I knew we wouldn't agree (we'd discussed it often enough even before #2 arrived) so it seemed fair to me to postpone the decision until child #2 wanted to make their own call. Seemed like a perfect compromise to me, and a door slammed shut to my wife. :-)

I should point out that I accepted child #1 being baptised as I felt it was a necessary evil, yes still in today's Ireland. Particularly in education, particularly away from the larger conurbations. Whether to go RC or COI? I initially thought it best to acknowledge the support given during pregnancy and birth by my in-laws by letting the first child sign on the RC dotted line. I was also making an allowance for the fact that mom in law is the most religious of the four grandparents.
Several years passed and #2 arrived and I felt and we had agreed that if, (IF) #2 had to be baptised that it would be fairest to both sides of the family to go COI this time. My wife was reluctant since she thought it was divisive to have them different but I felt it would be academic, (excuse the pun) since #2 would follow #1 into the same RC ethos primary school. Also I would have a slight preference for my own COI route, as I feel it has been better to date, at nurturing self determination and creating your own belief. (perhaps I'm biased)
It has always been my full intention however, to bring our two kids up atheist. This is harder than I thought. We live in an estate, and our first child is smart and likes to talk and there have been plenty of moments where I've worried that we might get a knock on the door from a neighbour asking us to tell our kid to keep their atheist beliefs to themselves. Fortunately though, it seems we are not the only non believers. When the subject comes up now with other kids around, I just hold our atheist line and always remember to allow for the other side of the coin. (Wouldn't want to be the first atheist accused of indoctrinating kids. The irony would kill me.)
And , well to be franc , the level of indoctrination in our, otherwise excellent, primary school is nothing short of scary. It sometimes seems that they spend maybe 30% of teaching time, hammering "the faith" into them.
Why anyone , in this day and age thinks its ok to tell small children what to believe about a subject as difficult as God, is beyond me.
I hate it.
Why wouldn't they give them an early look through some microscopes instead.

Ok, if you are still reading , fair play to ya. I'll try and wrap it up now.

I think the biggest problem for my wife is that being atheist is a scary thing for her, and she does not want our kids to feel the same emptiness.
I've tried to explain how for me its pure liberation, from everything, and now I can just be good because its the best thing for me, on every level.
There is only good news in Atheism.
Its this fear, in my wife, that I'd like to think my kids will never have to deal with.
Once you baptise a child RC, you put them on a train, that is not that easy to stop. My lovely intelligent, logical daughter is now confused about whether or not to belive her parents or what she hears in school. And next up is first communion, which does not help.
If I could, no baptism , from the word go.