Science question?

Jammyc

Hey,

Just wondering, why is it a B.A in science subjects as opposed to actually getting a B.Sc.???

Whats the logic behind this?

PurpleFistMixer

Weird old tradition I think. According to wikipedia, Oxford and Cambridge do the same thing.

Doesn't make any difference in practice I think.

gamma23

It's exactly that reason, BSc are new things invented to be more descriptive the older universitys responded by effectively saying that a BA in Physics is clearly not an Arts degree and the rest of the world can go (insert appropriate word of choice) themselves.

BlueCam

How come there's the B.B.S. for business then?

Podge_irl

I think the newer courses may have "modern" degree titles.

Mark200

Yeah the normal Computer Science course gives a BA, but if you do the Computer Science evening course thing you'll get a BSc

fishtastico

I don't really think it matters anway. We can also buy a MA without doing a course. Just old practices, really

Trance

Generally B.Sc.'s, in comparison to B.A.'s, cover a broader range of relevent science subjects and offer more specialised subjects in the area that you're studying. Doing a B.A., you're given more opportunities to substitute optional arts subjects and language modules into your program.

fishtastico

Trance wrote: »

Generally B.Sc.'s, in comparison to B.A.'s, cover a broader range of science subjects and offer more specialised subjects in the area that you're studying. Doing a B.A., you're given more opportunities to substitute optional arts subjects and language modules into your program.

Eh, no. It's literally just a different name. We don't even get arts subjects as electives like UCD, who do a B.Sc, and in TCD, it can be waay more specialised than somewhere like Maynooth (also a B.Sc)

Podge_irl

Trance wrote: »

Generally B.Sc.'s, in comparison to B.A.'s, cover a broader range of science subjects and offer more specialised subjects in the area that you're studying. Doing a B.A., you're given more opportunities to substitute optional arts subjects and language modules into your program.

Seriously, I have a BA in theoretical physics, which is about as sciency as it comes.

Could be worse incidentally, Cambridge are so incredibly old school about their degrees that I don't even get a degree here, just a certificate!

Trance

fishtastico wrote:

Eh, no. It's literally just a different name. We don't even get arts subjects as electives like UCD

Well for a start I said in general, I didn't say it applies to all colleges and universities. It's generally how it works in colleges and universities throughout the world though.

For example; a course like TR071 Natural science, if you were doing physics, you'd do 20 credits of physics in first year and 20 credits of physics in second year. However, if you look at a typical B.Sc. full course description.. I'll take physics in D.I.T. as an example, you'd do 20 credits of physics in first year (and an extra 5 credits allocated to attending various physics conferences) which would increase to 35 credits in second year. In this year, you'd cover more topics that aren't covered in the Trinity physics modules. You'd also be doing a computer programming module (amounting to a further 5 credits) which would be designed to be of direct relevance to your program. Many modules in the final two years of physics in D.I.T. are also more specialised and not as general as the topics covered in Trinity. Look at many full course descriptors and you'll find that this is the general trend between B.Sc.'s and B.A.'s

Also, doing Science in Trinity does give you the opportunity to substitute a module of your course with a language or arts subject. Look at the "Broad Curriculum" website. There's info about which module you're allowed to replace there.

Podge_irl

Trance wrote: »

For example; a course like TR071 Natural science, if you were doing physics, you'd do 20 credits of physics in first year and 20 credits of physics in second year. However, if you look at a typical B.Sc. full course description.. I'll take physics in D.I.T. as an example, you'd do 20 credits of physics in first year and it would increase to 35 credits in second year where you'd cover more topics that aren't covered in the Trinity physics modules. You'd also be doing a computer programming module (amounting to a further 5 credits) which would be designed to be of direct relevance to your program. Many modules in the final two years of physics in D.I.T. are also more specialised and not as general as the topics covered in Trinity. Look at many full course descriptors and you'll find that this is the general trend between B.Sc.'s and B.A.'s

Also, doing Science in Trinity does give you opportunity to substitute a module of your course with a language or arts subject. Look at the "Broad Curriculum" website. There's info about which module you're allowed to replace there.

All that may well be the case, but it has absolutely nothing to do with why you get a B.A.(mod) in Trinity. Its entirely equivalent to a BSc and is not remotely related to the number of ECTS covered or any similar reason. The broad curriculum thing is similar to many other programs in other universities. The reason you get a BA for physics in Trinity is down to tradition and nothing more.

fishtastico

Trance wrote: »

Also, doing Science in Trinity does give you opportunity to substitute a module of your course with a language or arts subject. Look at the "Broad Curriculum" website. There's info about which module you're allowed to replace there.

Far as I remember, the only opportunity I had to do an arts subject was in third year, and Trinity don't really do modules, so the Broad curriculum was a tiny part of it. Also, many people took extra science subjects insted. It's really not very broad, especially compared to other Irish Universies.

Also, the "general trend" would really just be between Trinity and any other Irish college in fairness

Trance

Podge_irl wrote:

Its entirely equivalent to a BSc and is not remotely related to the number of ECTS covered or any similar reason. The broad curriculum thing is similar to many other programs in other universities. The reason you get a BA for physics in Trinity is down to tradition and nothing more.

With the few ancient universities like Trinity, Oxford and Glasgow etc, it may be down to tradition that they retain B.A. awards but at the same time you still can't argue that the science courses that they provide are as topically intricate as an average B.Sc. course. (Again, everything I say is general and not applying to each and every course.) B.Sc. courses, wherever you go in the world, tend to cover more relevant and offer more specialised science subjects... (and of course that's directly related to the amount of ECTS you do in various topics.)

fishtastico

Trance, you seem to be missing the point entirely. The BA label is just a name. It's not like the degree is any different. It's not like the university heads sat round and decided the degree needed to be more "old-fashioned" or anything. And while I'm sure you've surveyed all the B.Sc.s all over the world, I'm pretty sure there is no difference. I'll remind you that Trinity has the best Immunology department in the counrty. Sounds pretty relevant to me. Where did you go, btw?

fr larry duff

Trance wrote: »

With the few ancient universities like Trinity, Oxford and Glasgow etc, it may be down to tradition that they retain B.A. awards but at the same time you still can't argue that the science courses that they provide are as topically diverse as an average B.Sc. course. (Again, everything I say is general and not applying to each and every course.) B.Sc. courses, wherever you go in the world, cover more relevant and offer more specialised science subjects... and of course that's directly related to the amount of ECTS you do in various topics.

That doesn't make sense. If a modern university had the exact same Science course as Trinity, but awards a B.Sc, it's more relevant and specialised? How are Trinity Science degrees not as topically diverse as an "average B.Sc course"? In the freshman years you can do Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Maths, Geology, Geography, and there is a huge list of moderatorships to specialise in in the sophister years, often with an element of choice in the modules taken within that moderatorship either in JS, SS, or both. How much more topically diverse do you want?

fishtastico

The thing with Trinity is, it starts broad, and then gets really specialised

Jammyc

Either way guys,

Thanks to all of ye. I thought origionally it was a typo, but now my mind is at rest.

Thanks to all, again.:D
Night.

Podge_irl

Trance wrote: »

With the few ancient universities like Trinity, Oxford and Glasgow etc, it may be down to tradition that they retain B.A. awards but at the same time you still can't argue that the science courses that they provide are as topically diverse as an average B.Sc. course.

I don't really follow you. The courses provided by Trinity are average BSc courses. They are just called BAs. It's just a name, no more.

Trance

Seeing as the trinity physics course is what yous seem to know about I'll compare that to another. Taking all of this information directly from the websites:

1st year Physics Trinity:
Various physics topics in a module amounting to 20ECTS. Physics ends here.

1st year Physics D.I.T.:
Various physics modules amounting to 20 ECTS.
Applied physics 5 ECTS.
Introduction to Programming (integrated into overall program) 5 ECTS

2nd year Physics Trinity:
Various physics topics amounting to 20ECTS. Physics end here.

2nd year Physics D.I.T.:
Physics modules amounting to 35 ECTS
Applied physics 5 ECTS
Programming 5 ECTS



That covers the diversity of relevant subjects in the initial years.. and now moving on to the final years where more specialised subjects are offered..




3rd Year Physics Trinity:
http://www.tcd.ie/Physics/undergraduate/mod_physics/junior_sophister.php
(Astrophysics can be replaced by an arts subject.)

Whereas in Physics in D.I.T.,that is all covered and more specialised topics are offered. For example;Vacuum Tech for Nanoscience and Envir&Remote Sens/Optic Tech (whatever the hell that one is.)

4th Year Physics Trinity:
http://www.tcd.ie/Physics/undergraduate/mod_physics/senior_sophister.php

Whereas in Physics in D.I.T., you see that there's more specialised topics offered which aren't as general as the topics covered in Trinity. Some are optional and some are compulsary. Quantum Physics of Solids, Holography/Applied Optic Spectrometry, AdvTech for Computational Phy, Fluids & Adv Optics, Physics of Fluids/Acoustics, Microwaves/Advanced Optics, Lasers,Optic Commun & Applicat, Diagnostic Imaging, etc etc..



The above trends appear throughout various B.Sc. courses of all different topics throughout universities all over the world. Some universities offer B.A.'s and B.Sc.'s in the exact same topics.. which one you get depends on what modules you've taken throughout and what topics you've covered.

Podge_irl

First of all, all students taking physics in Trinity need to take Maths courses as well, many of which are merely physics courses by another name, so that brings up the ECTS level for physics/applied maths courses.

The DIT courses aren't more specialised, they are more centred on practicalities as its an IT. Someone who has done those courses in DIT would make a pretty poor theoretical particle physicist for example.

The above trends appear throughout various B.Sc. courses of all different topics throughout universities all over the world. Some universities offer B.A.'s and B.Sc.'s in the exact same topics.. which one you get depends on what modules you've taken throughout and what topics you've covered.

I'd be really interested to hear some specific examples of these universities, as it is not a practice I have ever heard of.

Trance

Podge_irl wrote:

First of all, all students taking physics in Trinity need to take Maths courses as well, many of which are merely physics courses by another name, so that brings up the ECTS level for physics/applied maths courses.

All students doing physics take maths modules. I didn't include maths modules. It's not necessarily physics. In addition to the physics courses that D.I.T. students take, they're also doing calculus / linear algebra etc etc modules.

Podge_irl wrote:

The DIT courses aren't more specialised, they are more centred on practicalities as its an IT. Someone who has done those courses in DIT would make a pretty poor theoretical particle physicist for example.

As would someone who'd done science in Trinity. I haven't been talking about theoretical physics, I've been talking about physics through TR071. I said at the beginning that there's exceptions to the trend and the theoretical physics course is just that.
I feel like you're taking this as an attack on Trinity now and you're trying to defend yourself and what you've done. I'm only telling you what the worldwide difference in the trend between B.Sc.'s and B.A.'s is.

Podge_irl wrote:

I'd be really interested to hear some specific examples of these universities, as it is not a practice I have ever heard of.

http://www.whatuni.com/degrees/courses/Degree-details/Mathematics-Physics-BA-BSc-Hons-course-details/31167049/3773/cdetail.html

http://johnmolson.concordia.ca/en/undergrad/program-non-business-students/ba-bsc-actuarial-math-finance

http://www.unimelb.edu.au/HB/facs/SCI-S11807.html

http://prospectus.shu.ac.uk/op_uglookup1.cfm?id_num=790

I could go on for the rest of my life listing them.

Trance

Also, B.Sc. students have to study physics and statistics in some form or another throughout their program. B.A. students do not. Trinity science students who don't bother doing maths or physics will never have covered these topics.

Podge_irl

Trance wrote: »

I feel like you're taking this as an attack on Trinity now and you're trying to defend yourself and what you've done. I'm only telling you what the worldwide trend difference between B.Sc.'s and B.A.'s are.

Well I didn't do Natural Science in Trinity, so I feel no major reason to defend it. I wasn't aware of the practice of awarding BA or BSc depending on specialisation, but I'll accept that it clearly happens.

However, I still have to take issue with the comparisons you are making between Trinity and DIT. Trinity awarding a BA has absolutely nothing to do with any worldwide standard with regards when to award a BA and when to award a BSc, they simply never awarded BSc's (as no universities did at the time) and have simply stuck with that tradition. I don't happen to think that the DIT physics course is in any way more specialised, merely concentrating on different topics.

Obviously you appear to be correct in the general worldwide trend of the difference between BAs and BScs. But seeing as the thread was specifically referencing Trinity then I just feel that it should be pointed out that that is not why Trinity award BAs.

Podge_irl

Trance wrote: »

Also, B.Sc. students have to study physics and statistics in some form or another throughout their program. B.A. students do not. Trinity science students who don't bother doing maths or physics will never have covered these topics.

What? Not all B.Sc. students study physics and statistics - there are any number of B.Sc courses which cover neither (though it depends somewhat on what you classify as physics).

dan719

The distinction between BSc and B.A is something that does take place in so called new/young universities. Trinity however, along with Oxbridge maintains a system of awarding a degree in 'subject' as a B.A (mod) for all except professional courses and a few random (seemingly) degrees such as an evening studies degree in Computer Science. It is not a B.A and employers recognise this.

In relation to your criticisms of Physics in TCD. TCD is regarded as having both the best physics and maths departments on the island, and has a (reasonably) wide ranging area of research. It also has excellant facilities, and the undergrad degrees offered in Physics, Astrophysics, Computational Physics and Theoretical Physics are all highly regarded. I am not sure where you have got the impression course choices are highly limited in these degrees as more quirky options include mathematical neuroscience, econophysics and so on.

To claim that a BSc is superior simply because it is a BSc is ridiculous, particularly when one considers that D.I.T offers a BSc degree in Bar Management.:P

Trance

Haha ok I've said already though that the ancient colleges of Britain and Ireland award B.A.'s as tradition. That said however, the B.A. science degrees that they offer, ultimately and while they may be in science subjects, do reflect arts degrees anyway. They focus on their students having a knowledge of a range topics across the sciences and don't focus so much on students having a specialised knowledge of one particular science.

Saying it again, Trinity offers B.A.'s as a tradition but if it was decided that it was going to start awarding B.Sc.'s, it would have to make changes to particular aspects of some of the courses. A component of physics and statistics would have to integrated into every B.Sc. program.

podge wrote:

I don't happen to think that the DIT physics course is in any way more specialised, merely concentrating on different topics.

That's what I mean when I say specialised. D.I.T. concentrates and goes into more detail in certain topics of physics. A typical example is that you do general quantum physics and then you can do a separate module on quantum physics of solids. It offers more modules in advanced topics in physics.

podge wrote:

Not all B.Sc. students study physics and statistics - there are any number of B.Sc courses which cover neither (though it depends somewhat on what you classify as physics)

There's a set number of hours that a B.Sc. student is supposed to spend studying physics (of some form) and statistics. I'm not sure exactly what the number of hours is though.

Trance

dan719 wrote: »

To claim that a BSc is superior simply because it is a BSc is ridiculous

You obviously need to actually read everything that I've wrote because I didn't say anywhere that B.Sc.'s are superior to B.A.'s. I've been telling you what the differences are between the two.

Podge_irl

Trance wrote: »

Saying it again, Trinity offers B.A.'s as a tradition but if it was decided that it was going to start awarding B.Sc.'s, it would have to make changes to particular aspects of some of the courses. A component of physics and statistics would have to integrated into every B.Sc. program.

Okay, I think we've reached something of an understanding so, but I still don't agree on this point!

That's what I mean when I say specialised. D.I.T. concentrates and goes into more detail in certain topics of physics. A typical example is that you do general quantum physics and then you can do a separate module on quantum physics of solids.

Trinity give vague enough names to their course titles, but they are actually quite specific courses. Everything in TCD Physics is slanted towards materials science, because that's what they specialise in. And TCD is better at it then DIT, much like DIT is probably better at something (I have no idea what they generally research there). I wouldn't really consider the physics courses to be all that general at all - I personally found them next to useless precisely because of their specialised nature (specialised to the wrong things for me!).

There's a set number of hours that a B.Sc. student is supposed to spend studying physics (of some form) and statistics. I'm not sure exactly what the number of hours is though

Well, a brief glance through the UCD science courses doesn't indicate any mandatory physics element to a lot of them.

Podge_irl

dan719 wrote: »

In relation to your criticisms of Physics in TCD. TCD is regarded as having both the best physics and maths departments on the island, and has a (reasonably) wide ranging area of research.

Regarded by whom? The TCD Physics dept is very good at what they do, but I wouldn't claim they have a wide range of research. Nor would I claim it is categorically the best, a label I wouldn't attribute to the maths dept either.

Trance

Podge_irl wrote: »

A component of physics and statistics would have to integrated into every B.Sc. program. I still don't agree on this point! Well, a brief glance through the UCD science courses doesn't indicate any mandatory physics element to a lot of them.

Elements of physics and statistics are often incorporated into science subjects and not studied as separate programs. A typical example would be that computer science students might study physics (mechanics) as they'd need to be able to write scripts for characters / objects in games etc. The projectile motion of.. I dunno.. a cannonball. They'd study this as part of a games programming module.

The vast majority of B.Sc. degrees have the minimum physics and statistics requirements that they should have in some form or another. Then there's those few however that don't really have the requirements but if put under scrutiny it will be argued that certain elements which are vaguely related to physics and statistics are sufficient. That's an entirely different arguement though; whether a degree can be classed as a B.Sc. or not.

AlanSparrowhawk

Trance wrote: »

Elements of physics and statistics are often incorporated into science subjects and not studied as separate programs. A typical example would be that computer science students might study physics (mechanics) as they'd need to be able to write scripts for characters / objects in games etc. The projectile motion of.. I dunno.. a cannonball. They'd study this as part of a games programming module.

The vast majority of B.Sc. degrees have the minimum physics and statistics requirements that they should have in some form or another. Then there's those few however that don't really have the requirements but if put under scrutiny it will be argued that certain elements which are vaguely related to physics and statistics are sufficient. That's an entirely different arguement though; whether a degree can be classed as a B.Sc. or not.

Hold on. I think you're talking bollox. There's some fundamental necessity to have statistics and or physics in a Bachelor of Science? Like the B.Sc. in Rural Development from Nui galway?

how about from the London school of economics. yes many here would have statistics but how many physics?

BSc Accounting and Finance
BSc Actuarial Science
BSc Social Anthropology
BSc Business Mathematics and Statistics
BSc Economic History
BSc Economic History with Economics
BSc Economics and Economic History
BSc Economics
BSc Economics with Economic History
BSc Econometrics and Mathematical Economics
BSc Environmental Policy
BSc Environmental Policy with Economics
BSc Geography with Economics
BSc Government
BSc Government and Economics
BSc Government and History
BSc Human Resource Management and Employment Relations
BSc International Relations and History
BSc International Relations
BSc Management
BSc Management Sciences
BSc Mathematics and Economics
BSc Mathematics with Economics
BSc Philosophy, Logic and Scientific Method
BSc Philosophy and Economics
BSc Politics and Philosophy
BSc Social Policy
BSc Social Policy and Criminology
BSc Social Policy and Economics
BSc Social Policy with Government
BSc Social Policy and Sociology
BSc Sociology

Trance

Well if you stopped and actually thought about it for a second before throwing a minor tantrum telling me that I'm talking bollox then you'd realise that physics can actually be incorporated into those programs, as I'm sure it is. You can't disagree that statistics would be a component of every single one of those courses. That's obvious.


... As for physics.......

- All subjects with mathematics are scratched off. I don't think I need to explain why.

- Next economics. Econophysics is a whole area of study. There goes every course related to economics, finance, government, international relations and business.

... and as for the rest of the courses: I'm not going to go into each of them individually but you can go google yourself.

- Environmental physics.
- Sociophysics / Socioeconomics.
- Philosophy of science/physics.

Nietzschean

Trance wrote: »

Well if you stopped and actually thought about it for a second before throwing a minor tantrum telling me that I'm talking bollox then you'd realise that physics can actually be incorporated into those programs, as I'm sure it is.

...No...no its not, at least no more so than physics is in EVERY course on anything.

You can't disagree that statistics would be a component of every single one of those courses. That's obvious.

Ish but see above even with half those courses the level of physics is giving a stats package a few inputs and producing some graphs, yet again that is done in a wide range of courses(oh btw including all of our natural sciences, everyone loves graphs)

- All subjects with mathematics are scratched off. I don't think I need to explain why.

Please explain this, i do believe my degree says Mathematics , not physics. Here was I working under the assumption those were different things

- Next economics. Econophysics is a whole area of study. There goes every course related to economics, finance, government, international relations and business.

Err, no. Do you know what econophysics is? there is no guarantee its in every/any economics courses in that university. And secondly its not even physics, its the application of physics formula's to economics, thats not doing physics.

... and as for the rest of the courses: I'm not going to go into each of them individually but you can go google yourself.

- Environmental physics.
- Sociophysics / Socioeconomics.
- Philosophy of science/physics.

...same applies here.


Your comments about BA. Mod's in trinity's sense is just silly tbh, its for historical reasons. By your own arguement on mathematics all of our science students have done both physics,maths and at least one computers course.

And specalised? trinity is new to the whole ECTS, our dept's just haven't broken down courses for semesterisation fully yet and so on so our course titles arn't always as specific. It doesn't mean the course isn't just as a specific for the same length of time. Doing comparason's based on what you read on the websites is nuts.

Diversity and range of subjects in 2nd year? trinity applied ECT values to its courses a few years ago just to say they had ECTS they don't mean anything to the people who set the courses, at least not yet anyway. How many ECT's were assigned to physics is a silly metric.

Epic Tissue

Trance wrote: »

Saying it again, Trinity offers B.A.'s as a tradition but if it was decided that it was going to start awarding B.Sc.'s, it would have to make changes to particular aspects of some of the courses.

How do you know this? Can you show me somewhere that states what is needed in a bsc degree?

This is on the CS.tcd site:

CS Brochure wrote:

Why is Computer Science a BA degree and what is a Moderatorship?
The reasons for this are historical. A Moderatorship is a four-year honours degree programme with specifc educational objectives for the development of thinking and communication skills. Even if you do a science subject in Trinity, such as chemistry, you will be awarded a BA (Mod) degree.

Trance

I don't know why you people find the notion so difficult to come to terms with. It makes perfect logical sense. Physics is the most fundamental of all of the sciences. Every other science branches from physics. Therefore in order for a subject to be considered a science it must be, in some way shape or form and to some extent, related to physics. Different universities when introducing new programs decide whether that program can be regarded as a science or not. If they consider it to be a science and want to award a B.Sc., some element of the degree must be scientific. This is why physics has to be incorporated into every B.Sc. Some of you seem to believe that what I'm saying is that a B.Sc. Psychology student has to study thermodynamics or something crazy like that. I'm not saying anything of the sort.

Next, statistics. Statistics is the only maths topic that can be applied right across the sciences. All other topics are only related to certain areas. A psychology student needn't bother studying calculus. Therefore it again makes perfect sense that a requirement of a B.Sc. degree is that you study statistics. Again this doesn't mean spending weeks and weeks studying statistics and it doesn't mean doing a whole course on it. As another irritated B.A. student pointed out two posts ago, studying graphs and finding means modes and standard deviations of numbers is studying statistics.

The whole B.Sc. system isn't so obvious in Britain and Ireland because here students enter into courses which have already been pre-designed for them from start to finish. If however you were attending a university outside of Britain and Ireland; a university that allows students to map their own degrees from start to finish, you would at the beginning be informed of the subjects which you would be required to take in order to be awarded a B.Sc. If you didn't fulfill these requirements you'd be awarded a B.A.

http://www.monash.edu.au/pubs/handbooks/courses/0050.html

There's one typical completely random example. Scroll to requirements.

Jammyc

This is a bit of a petty argument.
My question has been answered, so whats the deal?

starn

Jammyc wrote: »

so whats the deal?

It looks like someone didnt get there first choice. Where is Cantab when we need him ?

Jammyc

starn wrote: »

It looks like someone didnt get there first choice. Where is Cantab when we need him ?

What? I dont understand.

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

Trance wrote: »

I don't know why you people find the notion so difficult to come to terms with. It makes perfect logical sense. Physics is the most fundamental of all of the sciences. Every other science branches from physics. Therefore in order for a subject to be considered a science it must be, in some way shape or form and to some extent, related to physics.

Isn't that a bit like saying every Chemistry student in the country studies alchemy?

graphene

Trinity dont hand out B.A's for science, never have and never will

They hand out a B.A.(mod) for science degrees which is not a B.A.

B.A.(mod) is exactly the same as a BSc. Only Trinity, Oxford and Cambridge give out B.A.(mod) and its for historical reasons.

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

graphene wrote: »

Trinity dont hand out B.A's for science, never have and never will

They hand out a B.A.(mod) for science degrees which is not a B.A.

B.A.(mod) is exactly the same as a BSc. Only Trinity, Oxford and Cambridge give out B.A.(mod) and its for historical reasons.

Only Dublin University awards a B.A.(Mod.). You're wrong about Oxford and Cambridge.

PurpleFistMixer

Trance wrote: »

Some of you seem to believe that what I'm saying is that a B.Sc. Psychology student has to study thermodynamics or something crazy like that. I'm not saying anything of the sort.

What sort of physics specifically DO they have to study, so? Just interested... if we're going for "core", do they just deal with the properties of the 4 fundamental forces, particle physics etc.?

Trance

PurpleFistMixer wrote:

What sort of physics specifically DO they have to study, so? Just interested... if we're going for "core", do they just deal with the properties of the 4 fundamental forces, particle physics etc.?

It's not necessarily "core" physics that a B.Sc. student is meant to study. They'd study area of physics that's directly related and relevant to their program. They wouldn't necessarily be learning off equations and trying to understand complicated physical concepts. For subjects like chemistry and biology it's not that difficult to understand how physics could be incorporated.

For subjects like psychology and economics etc though it's not so obvious. I haven't done B.Sc.'s in either of those subjects but just off the top of my head I'd imagine a psychology through science student might also be taught a bit about how the nervous system works; nerve signal transmission through propagation of electric charges / ion interactions along nerve axons ect...
An element of econophysics could be incorporated into an economics science degree. Chaotic systems, statistical physics, physical models that have been found to also model the behaviour of certain systems in economics.

I've already said that a vigorous knowledge of physics isn't required and it doesn't have to be taught to a huge extent. It just has to be tied into the program somewhere if the institute intends to award bachelor of science degrees to it's students. The requirement is something like 10 hours of physics and statistics (not necessarily together) throughout the entire 3 / 4 year program.

antiselfdual

Trance wrote: »

It just has to be tied into the program somewhere if the institute intends to award bachelor of science degrees to it's students. The requirement is something like 10 hours of physics and statistics (not necessarily together) throughout the entire 3 / 4 year program.

Who regulates this?

Nietzschean

Trance wrote: »

Therefore in order for a subject to be considered a science it must be, in some way shape or form and to some extent, related to physics.

Ummm what qualifications do you have? you seem to be largely pulling stuff out of your arse. Mathematics is considered by alot of people to be the most fundamental of the sciences, though also by others not to be a science at all but some form of arts.

This is why physics has to be incorporated into every B.Sc.

Cite something on this, because its the core of what you say and yet i've never seen that anywhere.

Next, statistics. Statistics is the only maths topic that can be applied right across the sciences.

Yet again you seem to largely pulling stuff from your arse. For one stats isn't even considered part of maths by everyone, heck in trinity its part of a seperate school entirely lumped in with computer science. And even if it was calculus/algebra are far more universal.

All other topics are only related to certain areas. A psychology student needn't bother studying calculus.

they might/might not, its in alot of basic mathematical courses to some degree even for arts students. They do study algebra, if they realise it or not....

Therefore it again makes perfect sense that a requirement of a B.Sc. degree is that you study statistics.

Did you just read some prospectuses and decide on this conclusion?

If however you were attending a university outside of Britain and Ireland; a university that allows students to map their own degrees from start to finish, you would at the beginning be informed of the subjects which you would be required to take in order to be awarded a B.Sc. If you didn't fulfill these requirements you'd be awarded a B.A.

Largely arbitary decisions by the college's as to what they regard as a sufficent level of science....

http://www.monash.edu.au/pubs/handbooks/courses/0050.html
There's one typical completely random example. Scroll to requirements.

That doesn't help your cause at all? i see no mention of having to do physics there? it just says you have to do stuff from 2 science areas(could be chemistry and biology, which is infact done by alot of people in tcd) and some maths or stats?


In summary did you make up your position from reading prospectuses? i've yet to hear of an authortative source on the topic what defines a BSc over a BA other than arbitary uni decisions let alone a BA Mod.. Sounds an aweful lot like first year know-it-all-itis , thankfully thats entirely curable with 4 years of it-doesnt-matter-a-fúck treatments

Trance

You're going to give yourself a nosebleed.

Fad

Trance wrote: »

You're going to give yourself a nosebleed.

He's right though.

oconnoao

Going by the rules you are saying, most Trinity science students would be entitled to BSc. As a chemistry student, I have completed 2 years of Maths courses and plenty of physics ones- quantum chemistry, electrochemistry, thermodynamics to name a few, ie - far more of both of the 'requirements' than other Accounting/Physcology students anyway.

Perhaps wherever you study that is the criteria for a BSc but in Trinity i'm pretty certain it's just historical reasons.