Discussion on the merits of Veteran's racing

Slideshowbob

I open to the floor the following for debate:

Veterans would be better off putting their enthusiasm into coaching underage/juniors/seniors and/or promoting/assisting at races for same rather than competing against each other when they are long past their best.

I am unaware of any other country apart from Ireland and UK where Vets racing is in a healthier state in comparison to the elite/junior/underage scene.

Would I be right in saying that in the continent (the hot bed for cycling) more efforts by mature experienced road-men/women are rightly put into the development of future champions?

Lumen

Seriously?

Acoustic

anyway of banning this idiot ???

i know 2 people in their 60's who would smoke alot of the younger crowd

and what coaching can they give ??? i mean u get on your bike , you cycle as far as you can and in the fastest safest time possible

Lumen

Slideshowbob,

You didn't by any chance watch this last night did you?

Quigs Snr

C'mon now slideshow, I know you're having a laugh now... there are vets in Ireland winning A races... ! Been in a combined race lately ? If anything having to beat these tough "auld" fella's is bringing the standard up. Hence the calls for the supervets category from some quarters. Although you are right, something does need to be done to bring more young people into it. Was very heartening in Dungarvan last weekend to see Fermoy bring an enormous underage squad (U12, 14, 16) along. Must have been 15 of them. Was the biggest turnout for a junior race I have seen in a while.

On the continent there is more cycling, period. Hence more coaching for younger riders. But the vets scene in these countries is if anything bigger ! In terms of numbers at least if not percentages.

scottreynolds

What are you guys flaming him for...... I actually think there's a valid point here......

Its worded as a debate not a point of fact.

My opinion is that there's plenty of support already out there for young riders on the form of clubs, junior competitions etc. Veterans will be the mainstay of club committees in Ireland and the UK so to say thats its mutually exclusive to have Vet racing and promote junior racing does seems odd.

I have only ridden in groups occasionally but I have more than a few words from VETs about how to ride and where to position myself. I treat this as coaching.

Chips Lovell

I think Bob is probably playing devil's advocate here.

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Veterans would be better off putting their enthusiasm into coaching underage/juniors/seniors and/or promoting/assisting at races for same rather than competing against each other when they are long past their best.

I'm not sure of the numbers, but I'd hazard a guess that there are actually more vets in this country than underage riders. So unless you want each kid to have two coaches, it's hardly like you are starving the sport of resources. And what's to stop guys from racing and coaching? From what I can see, a lot the people giving the most back to the sport in this country are vets.

Slideshowbob wrote: »

I am unaware of any other country apart from Ireland and UK where Vets racing is in a healthier state in comparison to the elite/junior/underage scene.

We had a bit of a cycling boom in the eighties and since then the sport seems to have waned in popularity. So its not surprising then that our racing population is skewed towards the 40+ demographic.

TinyExplosions

I would be inclined to thank that a lot of the Vets out there now are involved in coaching etc to a certain extent. They are members of clubs, and respected one at that who will give their wisdom to those that ask it (and maybe to some who don't!).

Becoming a cycling coach takes a lot of time and money, and I suspect a lot of these riders do it simply for fun, and because they always have. Just because you're a good rider doesn't make you a good coach. The only issue I have with a vets racing category is that a lot of them are better than the 'A' riders

I think there needs to be a grass roots change to increase the popularity of cycling in Ireland (and the UK), but I don't think it's up to the vets to do that, indeed I think it's partly up to clubs, and also forums like this that will help encourage more people to get involved. I know personally, I wouldn't have considered joining a club or racing a couple of years ago, and no I may well give it a go next season

ROK ON

The OP is asking for a debate, I dont think that flaming.

Anyway, to address the issue at hand. Firstly I am not a racing cyclist and can offer on opinion on that.

Cycling is one of the few sports where age does not preclude a person from engaging in competive action. This cannot be said of most ball sports/team sports and stuff like very short distance running (sprinting effectively). On that basis it should be good to see 'auld fella's' racing.

Now your original point only holds merit, if it is the case that young up & coming riders are being denied the coaching that they deserve because there are no available coaches (because they are too busy racing and looking after themselves). In other sports the enthusiast graduate to coaching as they can no longer play (hurling, rugby etc). Do you have specific examples of coaching not being available as those 'qualified' to coach are too busy racing. IF not you dont have a point really.

Also, while society should expect that each member of society give a little back (in this case a good vet cyclist putting something back into the sport), there is no obligation to do so.

Also, what harm is it that vets are racing?
Can you link the lack of numbers participating &/or succeeding at the sport at a younger level directly with the amount of vets - if you can't you dont really have any argument worth positing.

Finally is it the case that you are just sick of getting your ass handed to you by an older cyclists. If it is you are merely being mischevious.

MY tuppunce worth.

biker_joe

Well the overall numbers racing is year is up for the 1st time in years so thats a good sign !!!

Why are there so many Vets racing ....
because in the 80's and 90's there were many many more people cycling and racing, why ? because of the Pro's we had at the time !!! lots more kids wanted to cycle and race like their hero's, who between won all the classics and grand tours between them !!! so some of us are bit older now .... I am not a Vet yet have about 4 years to go... and it seems the Fitness levels don't seem to degrade like science expects, and some get better with age and experience !

So the answer is no, Vets should n't retire ! I have learned from some of the best of them, and there is no where better to learn than in a race with them, by watching them or asking them !!! CI have loads of coaches check your hand book, to use one you have to approach them, as not all clubs have a CI affiated coach !

Just to add there is a separate Vet's league, there is only a small amount of Vets riding the open races compared to the Vets league ( which is primarily Leinster based.)

Biker Joe

DirkVoodoo

I went out for a spin with a vet today, he was having a "recovery ride" between races and said it was a nice handy spin where he was keeping his heartrate down.

I struggled to hang onto his wheel at times.

I don't race, but I am still pretty young and fit enough but I would find keeping up with a lot of vets hard going. Planet-X would be a good example (hope he doesn't mind me using him as an example here), anyone who has cycled with that chap knows he is pretty darn strong. Cycling is one of the few sports where a lot of riders seem to get better with age.

Lots of people like the challenge of racing, I don't think they would take kindly to forced retirement.

petethedrummer

Having started my cycling career at 29, I'm hoping to peak at around 40.

Quigs Snr

Slideshow does have a point though.. having lots of vets to help with coaching is one thing, but Juniors need more than that. They specifically need a team of people (or at least 1-2 super motivated people) to look after them, they need to be brought out every weekend, during the weeks in summer, gym nights in winter, practice races need to be sorted out, etc.... transport to races is very different for Juniors and requires some organisation. Also parents have very high expectations, they more or less expect the kids to be dropped off, looked after and dropped home (this is personal experience from my current club). Some clubs are doing a great job of facilitating this, specifically Dan Morrissey, Wexford Wheelers, Fermoy, Kanturk among others including the new Waterford Sportif club who have taken on a few underage riders, but in at least 2 clubs I have spoken to, they have said that they don't have enough people willing to look after Juniors and hence have no junior section.

I don't think there is an easy answer. You just need motivated people, if vets want to do it then they would be ideal, if not, well you can hardly ban them from racing and get them up on Sunday mornings to go for a 25k ride with the Under 12's now can you !

unionman

petethedrummer wrote: »

Having started my cycling career at 29, I'm hoping to peak at around 40.

Having started cycling properly at 39, I really hope not to peak at 40!!!

Interesting debate though. I speak as a non-club member, non-racer (at least for the time being).

Fostering a cycling culture, which is vital to the longevity and popularity of the sport, cannot be delegated to any one particular group within the sport, such as the vets. It wouldn't be fair to begin with, and undervalues the degree of positive influence that vet racing has / can have for younger cyclists.

Coming to it as late as I have, I am very encouraged by the degree of participation of older riders. And from what I have seen and heard of vet racing, it looks pretty ferocious, and well beyond the scope of my ability.

On my first spin out with Orwell beginners last autumn, I was riding beside someone who had been with the club 50 years. A natural climber and very good company, it made the whole idea of club cycling very attractive to me.

Sportif events that bring together cyclists from 12 to 80 bring out the best in what the sport has to offer. What other sport can have such diversity in the ages of the participants? In the long term, that is going to recruit more people to it.

There may be a shortage of juniors and club volunteers to look after them at the moment, I don't know, Quigs snr explains very well why this might be the case.

However, as this forum will attest, the sport is gaining popularity. W200, the ROK, Martin Earley and Sean Kelly tours are attracting more participants every year. I think the clubs are seeing growth too. As a foundation for a cycling culture that can generate greater levels of participation at all levels, as well as fostering young competitive talent, I think those are the early indicators.

Long may it continue.

Finally, on a solo spin up Edmonstown Road on Tuesday night, I was just past Cruagh Wood, thinking I had been pacing myself pretty well and feeling good, and an Orwell cyclist at least 10 years my senior (maybe more) sailed past me effortlessly, no puffing, no panting, and heading for Glencree.:cool:

When I grow up I want to be just like him.

Doc Savage

Hello..
i'm a Vet and an MTB Coach... the vets in Irish MTB are more savage than most of the other classes, including Elites. I don't understand why anybody would ask for this debate , what are you saying that just because we are over 40 we should give up our enjoyment of racing ?
do you want a fight..i'll kick your arse..!!
what do you do for the sport and why should coching it be up to Vets ?.
I have been involved with all levels of offroad cycling and all disciplines, I'm responsible for the biggest mtb club in Ireland, possibly the british Isles and we're well on our way in 2009 to being the biggest Cycling Club in the Country.
so I should quit my enjoyment of what i do to solely to spend my day developing a fat arse and pointing at graphs !
i do both, i personally run spins for elites, ladies and Youth riders, not to mention total beginners both DH and XC..
I'm going to race till I can't get out of the bed..and I'm still going to encourage others to do the same.
have you ever heard of lead by example..I wouldn't ask anybody to ride anything I couldn't do myself.
cycling Ireland and its Commissions are responsible for the the development and structure of Cycling in this Country, and if you had any knowledge or real interest in Irish Cycling you would know that and wouldn't be typing this drivel out,
Richie Byrne
EPICmtb

topazkk

"I'm going to race till I can't get out of the bed..and I'm still going to encourage others to do the same." As stated by Doc Savage, someone at the coalface and with an attitude like that I'd entrust my kids to his coaching ability wouldn't ye.

Slideshowbob

Doc Savage wrote: »

Hello..
i'm a Vet and an MTB Coach... the vets in Irish MTB are more savage than most of the other classes, including Elites. I don't understand why anybody would ask for this debate , what are you saying that just because we are over 40 we should give up our enjoyment of racing ?
do you want a fight..i'll kick your arse..!!
what do you do for the sport and why should coching it be up to Vets ?.
I have been involved with all levels of offroad cycling and all disciplines, I'm responsible for the biggest mtb club in Ireland, possibly the british Isles and we're well on our way in 2009 to being the biggest Cycling Club in the Country.
so I should quit my enjoyment of what i do to solely to spend my day developing a fat arse and pointing at graphs !
i do both, i personally run spins for elites, ladies and Youth riders, not to mention total beginners both DH and XC..
I'm going to race till I can't get out of the bed..and I'm still going to encourage others to do the same.
have you ever heard of lead by example..I wouldn't ask anybody to ride anything I couldn't do myself.
cycling Ireland and its Commissions are responsible for the the development and structure of Cycling in this Country, and if you had any knowledge or real interest in Irish Cycling you would know that and wouldn't be typing this drivel out,
Richie Byrne
EPICmtb

Richie,

I am referring more so to road racing - apologies

I know little of the mtb set - excuse my lack of clarification

in any case - thanks for the treat of fighting n gettin arse kicked (moderators please note - is there any reference to this carry on in the cycling forum charter?) - u obviously make a great coach - where did u learn them skills? - the school of hard knocks? ;-) - see you behind the bike sheds after PE ;-)

What I do for this sport is none of your business - i presume anonimity is sacrisanct here which allows free speech without unrealistic threats (hint: knees are more effective than kicking in the heat of battle btw fwiw)

I am just stirring enlived, welcome and hopefully untreatening debate (again I emphasise it's based on road racing)

Your comment on arses and graphs actually shows dis-respect for non-racing coaches which is insulting. what have you got against fat arses n graphs anyway? check this out for size: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D99n9f3vU4 - apparently fat bottom girls make the world go round!!

you cant race if you are in bed anyway so you kinda created an oxymoron there - unless you sign up for the cycling manager game !! Go for it! - get used to it while you are still a fit young man

http://focus.gamesplanet.com/game-Pro-Cycling-Manager-2008.html?affilie=ASO

your sentence ''I wouldn't ask anybody to ride anything I couldn't do myself.'' is again relating inherantly to the mtb sport regarding the stuff you brave lads get up to.

I am familiar with the term lead by example thanks anyway, ive no doubt you do on your spins etc - Keep you the good coaching work - fair play to you

thanks for the comment - ''cycling Ireland and its Commissions are responsible for the the development and structure of Cycling in this Country'' - you must have a degree in stating the bleeding obvious.

CI is only as strong as the sum of its parts - weakest straw n all that palarva. And a debate of the workings of CI is a whole other ball game but feel free you give your opinions and I would add my tuppence worth.

Drivel is in the eye of the beholder - don't worry there's plenty of other drivel on the cycling forum - I'd welcome an opinionated, knowledgeable and inspirational fellow as yourself getting worked up about suchlike.

Adios Amigo

Bob

PS re charter -
Flaming
- Posts containing personal attacks on another user will be edited/deleted.

Re: previous posts - i have neither the desire, inclination or ability to ''ban'' vets racing - that would be nigh impossible - again I am just creating enlivened debate

victorcarrera

Slideshowbob wrote: »

I open to the floor the following for debate:
Veterans would be better off putting their enthusiasm into coaching underage/juniors/seniors and/or promoting/assisting at races for same rather than competing against each other when they are long past their best.

I agree, vets competing against each other contribute nothing to underage riders. However many of those same vets train with clubs and impart advice on the road to improving cyclists. From my experience even the cranky ones who say little can deliver so much experience simply by riding behind them and watching how they move. One of the attractions of cycling I believe is a primitave instinctive one of "Hunter gatherer/survival of the fittest etc and that feel good factor you may experience after a spin/race. Wild animal chases and catches prey and feasts on protein rich meat. Racing cyclists chase each other and afterwards consume protein rich drinks. Wild animals learn to hunt not by instruction of the spoken word but by imitation and example by elders. It has been said that 90% of human communication is non verbal. You can learn 90% of your cycling skills by watching a few ould fellas on your average club spin.

DirkVoodoo

victorcarrera wrote: »

I agree, vets competing against each other contribute nothing to underage riders. However many of those same vets train with clubs and impart advice on the road to improving cyclists. From my experience even the cranky ones who say little can deliver so much experience simply by riding behind them and watching how they move. One of the attractions of cycling I believe is a primitave instinctive one of "Hunter gatherer/survival of the fittest etc and that feel good factor you may experience after a spin/race. Wild animal chases and catches prey and feasts on protein rich meat. Racing cyclists chase each other and afterwards consume protein rich drinks. Wild animals learn to hunt not by instruction of the spoken word but by imitation and example by elders. It has been said that 90% of human communication is non verbal. You can learn 90% of your cycling skills by watching a few ould fellas on your average club spin.

I have also heard that vets like to eat the weaker members of the club, its one of my reasons for not joining one.

You really went after that "primitive instinct" analogy didn't you? Got a bit confusing, I didn't even know wild animals had a spoken word! :rolleyes:

victorcarrera

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I have also heard that vets like to eat the weaker members of the club, its one of my reasons for not joining one.

You really went after that "primitive instinct" analogy didn't you? Got a bit confusing, I didn't even know wild animals had a spoken word! :rolleyes:

Ok replace cranky with canibilastic cos I've met both. Sometimes you have to use all your communications skills to crack some of them and I've met a few tough nuts in my time. But competitive cycling is a hard persons sport and one of the skills is disguising weakness and not displaying emotion to your competition. Judicious use of charm and compliments usually gets them to open up because most of them crave admiration.

Slideshowbob

victorcarrera wrote: »

Ok replace cranky with canibilastic cos I've met both. Sometimes you have to use all your communications skills to crack some of them and I've met a few tough nuts in my time. But competitive cycling is a hard persons sport and one of the skills is disguising weakness and not displaying emotion to your competition. Judicious use of charm and compliments usually gets them to open up because most of them crave admiration.

appears you may be going a bit far to say they crave admiration - some may just enjoy competition but never got to achieve in their younger years due to circumstance - they may get a ''kick'' out of it all the same if you pardon the pun.

Ryder

Fair dues Bob for the topic and putting up with the abuse. Coming from a sport where most participants are junior and very few senior, i see all the benefits of veteran cycling. Just because people compete doesnt mean that they would coach otherwise. In my experience they are often completly seperate. Also seeing veterans racing gives good example and a role model for other club members. To encourage more members i think you need greater publicity of irish races and racers as well as much more 'turn up and race' races

bcmf

I am a vet (though not back racing yet).After many years out of the saddle due to a bad crash and a severe football injury which effectivly destroyed my right knee, wife,house,mortgage,work and kids etc etc I decided 18mnths or so to get back on the bike.Why?
First and foremost I love being on the bike.Out tipping along country lanes or dodging city traffic high winds,lashing rain or 30 degree heat (we can hope eh) is all the same to me.Its the buzz.I love it.
As regards to the most expeirenced teaching the young ones.As said above the best way IMO to learn is to go out with them watch and learn.
Something that may need to be adressed in the younger ranks is something that we are trying to address in Gaa (I am involved in the juvenile section of my local club) is the issue of player burnout.First of all you have to let the kids/underage enjoy their sport.If they dont its a fruitless journey and one that will eventually lead to a player/rider leaving the sport.Proper training with plenty of matches.races BUT NOT TOO MANY.Its not all about performance at that age but taking part.If someone has talent it will rise and should be nurtured not beaten into submission.If they have talent and enjoy what they do and shown how to train properly then it will yield results.Sometimes it takes a vet handing their arse to them on a plate for them to learnt. The vets may be cranky but they have spent many years earning that privelige.:p

Doc Savage

my apologies Bob..no offence was meant..I forgot where I was..my remarks as usual are mostly tongue in cheek..and you're right about the drivel.
But I actually think you are dead right to bring this up.
I'd have to say that the Vets I race against probably wouldn't make good instructors
As a racer and a Coach..I try to do both. So far my racing has suffered but the coaching has improved and I'm seeing more and more people both young and old taking up MTB, both racing and for fun.
I don't think i could race seriously and Coach people, to race you ultimately have to be selfish.

I do think that if you have a skill and experience regardless of your age you should put something back in..

"I'm going to race till I can't get out of the bed..and I'm still going to encourage others to do the same." As stated by Doc Savage, someone at the coalface and with an attitude like that I'd entrust my kids to his coaching ability wouldn't ye.

I'm not sure if thats a dig at me, but i was only having the craic , I can guarentee you that if you sent your kids to me for MTB coaching, they'd be well looked after, safe and have fun while learning skills most adults wouldn't cope with..

niceonetom

bcmf wrote: »

... a severe football injury which effectivly destroyed my right knee, wife,house,mortgage,work and kids etc etc

Good god, that must have been some injury to destroy your wife, your house, mortgage, your work and your kids :eek:. Fair play for getting back in the saddle. I hope they all recovered too.

I jest.

OP - surely the best training a young rider can get is stiff opposition? Not so much the school of hard knocks, but the school of getting dropped.

Slideshowbob

Doc Savage wrote: »

my apologies Bob..no offence was meant..I forgot where I was..my remarks as usual are mostly tongue in cheek..and you're right about the drivel.
But I actually think you are dead right to bring this up.
I'd have to say that the Vets I race against probably wouldn't make good instructors
As a racer and a Coach..I try to do both. So far my racing has suffered but the coaching has improved and I'm seeing more and more people both young and old taking up MTB, both racing and for fun.
I don't think i could race seriously and Coach people, to race you ultimately have to be selfish.

I do think that if you have a skill and experience regardless of your age you should put something back in..

"I'm going to race till I can't get out of the bed..and I'm still going to encourage others to do the same." As stated by Doc Savage, someone at the coalface and with an attitude like that I'd entrust my kids to his coaching ability wouldn't ye.

I'm not sure if thats a dig at me, but i was only having the craic , I can guarentee you that if you sent your kids to me for MTB coaching, they'd be well looked after, safe and have fun while learning skills most adults wouldn't cope with..

ur still a sound man richie ;-)

Slideshowbob

niceonetom wrote: »

Good god, that must have been some injury to destroy your wife, your house, mortgage, your work and your kids :eek:. Fair play for getting back in the saddle. I hope they all recovered too.

I jest.

OP - surely the best training a young rider can get is stiff opposition? Not so much the school of hard knocks, but the school of getting dropped.

its a bad thing to be stuck out in miggle of nowhere tho innit!!!

bcmf

Slideshowbob wrote: »

its a bad thing to be stuck out in miggle of nowhere tho innit!!!

Yeah but it means you will work harder to not get dropped the next time thus dragging up your fitness etc etc..

victorcarrera

niceonetom wrote: »

OP - surely the best training a young rider can get is stiff opposition? Not so much the school of hard knocks, but the school of getting dropped.

Everybody from novice to pro gets dropped. The difference is the more experienced rider knows why and knows how to prevent a recurrence. The novice rider who gets dropped (usually the bonk) thinks they are no good and very often give up altogether unless they are coached through it. Sadly I've seen this happen all too often when it could have been prevented by eating a banana.

Planet X

Well done Vic last Sunday. Nice scalp over your shoulder (Sean Lally!)
I'm out for a while unfortunately (crash) as I reckon I've either bruised or cracked a rib. Can't take a full breath / expand my chest properly.
C'est la vie.

victorcarrera

Planet X wrote: »

Well done Vic last Sunday. Nice scalp over your shoulder (Sean Lally!)
I'm out for a while unfortunately (crash) as I reckon I've either bruised or cracked a rib. Can't take a full breath / expand my chest properly.
C'est la vie.

Got lucky really and stole it from them. With respect I imagine result would be very different if we were all of the same vintage. Anyway just practicing for when you get back.:) So get well soon. Pity about that crash as you were going well in earlier races.
Broke/bruised ribs very painful. Been there three times. Ban any visitors that might make you laugh while recuperating.