EU to phase out VRT?

CrazyRabbit

Based on a response to a question for Mary Lou McDonald, it would seem the there is a proposal by the EU Commision to abolish VRT on new vehicles. Something to keep an eye on...

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+WQ+E-2007-6040+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN

(Click the Answer button to see the reply)

Anan1

'The proposal will require the unanimous agreement of the Council to be approved.'

Matt Simis

Without looking for political arguments, its quite easy for a Party like Sinn Fein, with no real support and no hope of getting any real positions in government to make idle promises (like their last one for free health care for children under 16).

When you arent in a position of power its easy to say what people want to hear.

smash

This is from Jan 2008... not going to happen or we would have heard more about it.

unkel

Anan1 wrote: »

'The proposal will require the unanimous agreement of the Council to be approved.'

That saved me from reading the article

Cars&cars

Hi all,

well some months back with the encouragement of others from this forum I sent a complaint to the European Union regarding VRT and how I felt 1. the system was unfair and a barrier to the free movement of goods in the EU, but perhaps more importantly 2. that the way VRT is imposed in Ireland was also unfair with over-inflated open market selling prices, a 24 hour rule on registration, the new propasal that all imported cars should have an NCT performed before registration in 2010, the appeals system to retrieve over charged vrt ect.

well well, this monring I received a really nice letter from the European Commision stating that my complaint is one of many regarding VRT and that the EU has now started legal proceedings against Ireland in relation to some of these matters concerning VRT. Let me quote:

"I have the honour to inform you that the Commission has instituted Infrindgements Proceedings under Article 226 of the EC Treaty and I will keep you informed of the developments in the case".

If anyone has any more info on this I'd like to know more - has anyone esle received such a letter? Do you know more about Infrindgement proceedings?

I feel so empowered - I hate VRT and everything about it - Im glad I did someone about it, rather than just lay down and take it! I might not get anywhere, but at least Im doing something, so I feel great.

Henry Ford III

That's great!

Trouble is they'll just change the tax to one on let's say - numberplates. I'm cynical but I cannot see how they can just give up the VRT revenue.

Muckie

Well done, it'd be great if this unfair/illegal tax was taken away.

Owen

I hate VRT as much as the next person, but I wonder where the money this has been generating will come from now ... and all I can see is more income taxes again. Or VRT under a different name, or ridiculous road tax.

smash

3 posts and ALL about VRT... hhmmmm

VRT is not illegal, it's unfair but not illegal and even if it was to go, something else would take it's place.

TheInquisitor

Legendry stuff!

FoxT

The alternative will be worse, much worse. The wonderful thing about VRT is that it isn't compulsory. You can avoid it to a large extent by buying secondhand, ( OK the VRT on the new price artificially props up 2nd hand car values - but you still pay much less) .

If it wasn't for VRT I'd probably be paying 5% more income tax - because this government is determined to let public spending continue to freewheel out of control, no matter what.

drunkmonkey

Well done Cars & Cars, excellent work..

let's hope this rip off is finished once and for all, free movement of goods and people, da la la la, free movement of goods and people da la la la!!

-Chris-

Threads merged due to similarity of content

-Chris-

My question to you Cars&Cars is this:

When you get your wish of abolishing VRT, what do you believe the effect will be?

If you have time, I'd appreciate if you could cover the effect on residual values, the reduction in gov't revenue, the sources of revenue that will be used to replace this reduction, etc. etc.

Not meaning to be a buzzkill, and I'm in admiration of your efforts to get VRT overturned, but I'd like to know that you have a plan and aren't just getting VRT abolished just because you don't like it.

whiterebel

Remove VRT and not only will the Govt have to bring in something else to replace the revenue, but Car Distributors will jack the price up, so we won't see any benefit anyway. Besides which, The EU can't interfere with any countries Tax affairs. They are pi**ed off at VRT because it was such an openly backhanded way to get around the duty aspect when it replaced Excise duty. If the EU hate Duties etc so much why don't the tell Ireland to abolish excise duty on alcohol, oil, perfume, matches and tobacco products?

drunkmonkey

they should!! The Europe I voted for was meant to bring about the free movement of goods, this has not happend, in fact worse the cost of importing a good car has increaced:mad:

FoxT

But if it was abolished by EU directive or whatnot then the govt would just come up with something eviller, cos there are 330,000 hungry mouths in the civil service to be kept fed, watered, benchmarked, and pensioned up.

w123

They're not exactly coining it with the VRT at the moment - New car sales are down 65% that's a lot of hungry public servants.

Cars&cars

Let's keep the discussion on topic - as i've explained more than once, the rights & wrongs of VRT have already been done to death here. Thanks.

-Chris-

Cars&cars wrote: »

Let's keep the discussion on topic - as i've explained more than once, the rights & wrongs of VRT have already been done to death here. Thanks.

It's your thread, define on-topic - is this a thread about people power, the ability to lobby government to take action and a general query as to the nature of infringement proceedings?

Kotek Besar

-Chris- wrote: »

It's your thread, define on-topic - is this a thread about people power, the ability to lobby government to take action and a general query as to the nature of infringement proceedings?

What you quoted wasn't written by Cars&cars, it was written by Anan1 who edited Cars&cars' post.

What Cars&cars wrote, pre-edit, can be seen within the quote in NewApproach's post.

Cars&cars

I was just doing some reading and I had a light bulb moment:

How can the Irish Government ask the people of Ireland to vote for the Lisbon Treaty that is about European Harmonisation - but still ignore the primary tenet of the Treaty of Rome - that of free movement of goods and people.

Basically - they have no reason to complain if the people of Ireland openly reject the Lisbon Treaty - when afterall, the Irish Government impose VRT and in doing so, circumvent the whole ethos of the EU.

If the Government want to be good Euro-files they need to abolish VRT and allow citizens to buy cars in the EU, without favour or hinderance.Its an interesting point relating to VRT?

smash

"7. efforts to stimulate economic growth - this increases revenue
8. ways to encourage people off welfare and into work or training - this decreases expenditure"

Ah that's funny...

"efforts to stimulate economic growth - this increases revenue" - Give an example
"ways to encourage people off welfare and into work or training - this decreases expenditure" - there are no jobs out there!

Lads the bottom line is this... I don't like VRT, I hate paying it... as does everyone else here but most of Ireland don't have a clue about VRT, what it is and what it's for because they just look at a local garage and buy a car. Sounds stupid but it's true, a lot of people don't even shop around and when they do import they complain about the amount of VRT because they never checked it out before purchasing! How many threads has you seen with "what's the VRT for this....." ffs look on the site you lazy git!

In a nutshell, if VRT was gone, a lot of people would be happy but if it was replaced with something like extra corporation taxes then the whole country would be p!ssed off! Lets just leave it now, even though I hate it - I'm fed up with VRT threads!

Cars&cars

steve06 wrote: »

"7. efforts to stimulate economic growth - this increases revenue
8. ways to encourage people off welfare and into work or training - this decreases expenditure"

Ah that's funny...

"efforts to stimulate economic growth - this increases revenue" - Give an example
"ways to encourage people off welfare and into work or training - this decreases expenditure" - there are no jobs out there!

Im not the Government - I am a citizen. I oppose VRT. Its not my responsibility to derive means to stimulate economic growth. Sorry. I gave a list of ideas - just off the cuff stuff, others previously asked me to come back with ideas - I was just trying to respond to that. I would just like to stick to the main theme of the thread which is that the EU wish to abolish VRT and I agree with this and am proactive in working towards the abolition of VRT for the reasons I gave above.

But Anan removed my response above!

-Chris-

benifa wrote: »

What you quoted wasn't written by Cars&cars, it was written by Anan1 who edited Cars&cars' post.

What Cars&cars wrote, pre-edit, can be seen within the quote in NewApproach's post.

Thanks, well spotted.

smash

Cars&cars wrote: »

Im not the Government - I am a citizen. I oppose VRT. Its not my responsibility to derive means to stimulate economic growth.

well if you make a point, please back it up or it's worthless!

You might as well say:
"give away free houses and then the government pay the builders using money they make from something, I don't know what, but sure it's not my job to decide... they can think of that part!"

Kotek Besar

I personally agree to the abolition of VRT. However - I can't see how VRT prevents free trade.

If a car is bought new and first registered in Ireland, VRT is payable. If a car is bought abroad and subsequently registered in Ireland, VRT is payable.

Cars&cars

Just want to restate my point on the Lisbon Treaty.

The Irish Government cant have it both ways - they cant impose a VRT car import tax and then ask people to say yes to Lisbon and Europe. If I say yes to Europe - it should mean I can import a car from the UK with no import taxes.

I think that answers some of the questions above. With regard to what should replace VRT revenue: my answer to this is I believe VRT is anti-European; is unequitable as it burdends motorists as one section of society and tax should be universal and equitable; and is just a bad tax.

Kotek Besar

Cars&cars wrote: »

a VRT car import tax

It's not an import tax. Every car registered in Ireland has to pay it, whether imported or not.

kmick

Henry Ford III wrote: »

That's great!

Trouble is they'll just change the tax to one on let's say - numberplates. I'm cynical but I cannot see how they can just give up the VRT revenue.

What Revenue? Was chatting to a guy in a Murphy Gunne garage today and he said they have not sold a new car in months. All second had. They dont get any VRT on that.

Kotek Besar

kmick wrote: »

All second had. They dont get any VRT on that.

They don't get it a second time, no. They've already had it when the car was first registered.

McSpud

I would never have guess that SF would want to remove VRT as surely it is some form of wealth tax? i.e. the bigger the car the more tax, if you buy second hand you avoid alot of it.

If VRT is removed it would be replaced by another tax like increase in motor tax which would be even more unfair.

I think the only thing the Commission is likely to rule on is the importation of cars from abroad. EU rulkes would indicate that you cannot levy higher taxes on good sourced from abroad.

drunkmonkey

My question is, how much net profit is actually made out of VRT, I mean after wages/administration/pensions etc.

The nay sayers are saying anything up to a 5% rise in income tax to make up for the abolition of VRT.

I'm no economist but i'd say your figures are way off the mark, i'd be surprised if VRT even generates a profit after all costs involved are recouperated. It is the public misservice were taking about here..

Cars&cars

Good point drunkmoney!

I called the Rosslare office to get some advice on an aspect of VRT that wasnt covered online. I managed to get through to a person in the appeals section; who I have to say was very nice. But she told me something akin to the following:

"we dont have a public telephone line as we are not a public service and have no ability to answer questions from the public" - "see our website or call one of the VRT offices".

So I called one office, but got an answer machine that said: "we are very busy at the moment, please call back later" beeeeee... So then I called another office: "our office opening ours are x to x we are not open now as we are closed for lunch". So I called another office, eventually I got through to someone who said: "we dont know we will need to contact the Rosslare Office"

So how long before I get an answer to my question "three weeks".

So this is the VRT service at its best - and we pay for it. I think the point about the cost of the service versus the revenue generated is excellent!

skyhighflyer

-Chris- wrote: »

My question to you Cars&Cars is this:

When you get your wish of abolishing VRT, what do you believe the effect will be?

If you have time, I'd appreciate if you could cover the effect on residual values, the reduction in gov't revenue, the sources of revenue that will be used to replace this reduction, etc. etc.

Not meaning to be a buzzkill, and I'm in admiration of your efforts to get VRT overturned, but I'd like to know that you have a plan and aren't just getting VRT abolished just because you don't like it.

That's not his problem. If he doesn't like VRT for whatever reason, he's entitiled to lobby his political representatives to get it abolished, without having to explain his reasons to you or anyone else. If you disagree with him, then you go to the effort of writing a letter to the Commission explaining why you think it should be kept.

gpjordanf1

benifa wrote: »

It's not an import tax. Every car registered in Ireland has to pay it, whether imported or not.

Isn't every car imported?

Anyway,

I'd be delighted if it were abolished, becasue it is illegal, its double taxing on the same product. VRT is a joke, I could put up with it if it were spent on roads or car related projects, but no it's for public service feathering of the nests. Also what totally baffles me is the government have the cheek to charge VAT & VRT on safety equipment on new cars? Where do ya start with that one?
I'd like to go to that VW Showroom / factory that builds your car while you wait? Pure class, wouldn't that be some day out. Pick your car, pay for it, see it being put together, comes down a level in a lift over 7-8 storeys, seen it on discovery.

Guy:Incognito

Cars&cars wrote: »

Just want to restate my point on the Lisbon Treaty.

The Irish Government cant have it both ways - they cant impose a VRT car import tax and then ask people to say yes to Lisbon and Europe. If I say yes to Europe - it should mean I can import a car from the UK with no import taxes.
.

Well then if your taking that line we cant be invloved in Europe and have lower income tax than other countries.

At the end of the day, the quote form the the letter from the EU doesnt say anythign specific and may well relate to the stuff brought up the other day regardign changes from the 1 day limit to a 7 day one. It certinly doesnt agree that VRT is illegal (which it isnt) or that they will be doing anythign to abolish it.

Cars&cars wrote: »

. With regard to what should replace VRT revenue: my answer to this is I believe VRT is anti-European; is unequitable as it burdends motorists as one section of society and tax should be universal and equitable; and is just a bad tax.

Thats not an answer and how exactly will having nothing to replace it with pay for anyting? Will a few thousand public servants be happy to work for free? . Sure the government can just do what your doing and shrug their shoulders when people start ringing and askign where their pay cheaque is.

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

I'd be delighted if it were abolished, becasue it is illegal, .

Link to the law that it breaks? Should be easy seeing as how sure you are it's illegal.

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

I'd like to go to that VW Showroom / factory that builds your car while you wait? Pure class, wouldn't that be some day out. Pick your car, pay for it, see it being put together, comes down a level in a lift over 7-8 storeys, seen it on discovery.

What has that got to do with VRT and how is it stopping you doing it?

Kotek Besar

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Isn't every car imported?

Coincidentally, yes. But VRT isn't levied due to importation. If a manufacturer were to start building cars here in Ireland, we'd have to pay VRT to register them, just the same.

-Chris-

skyhighflyer wrote: »

That's not his problem. If he doesn't like VRT for whatever reason, he's entitiled to lobby his political representatives to get it abolished, without having to explain his reasons to you or anyone else. If you disagree with him, then you go to the effort of writing a letter to the Commission explaining why you think it should be kept.

If we're on here making statements without a necessity to back them up, elaborate or expose them to scrutiny, I'd consider that to be against the spirit of boards.ie.

If that truly is the way that we're conducting this thread, then let him do his lobbying between him and his political representative and leave the rest of us out it.


As it happens, I do disagree with him. We've had this thread before many times and I've detailed my reasons for retaining VRT in those threads.

We've had this thread too many times, and unfortunately there doesn't seem to have been any learning or personal growth since the last one.

smash

-Chris- wrote: »

If we're on here making statements without a necessity to back them up, elaborate or expose them to scrutiny, I'd consider that to be against the spirit of boards.ie.

What do you mean Chris... that is exactly the spirit of Boars motors

gpjordanf1

benifa wrote: »

Coincidentally, yes. But VRT isn't levied due to importation. If a manufacturer were to start building cars here in Ireland, we'd have to pay VRT to register them, just the same.

Yes 100% correct, it is by no means an importation tax, but were supposed to be in an open market and VRT makes that a closed market. Not very European.
Anway I know VRT or any other tax they might dream up will not go ( windscreen tax etc) because its easy FREE money for the public service, I mean it is after all the public service running the country, they'd hardly vote to abolish it.

Gary ITR

This thread is going nowhere. Everytime this topic comes up we get far too much misinformation without any backup

So I'm locking this