AGS 4x4's

moose112

Just wondering why there a need for so many garda jeeps, can't imagine too many cross country chases or trailers to be towed.
I just think they are a waste of money as i was always led to believe jeeps have a high centre of gravity and tend to flip over quite easy a high speeds around cornors.
Now don't get me wrong this aint garda bashing, I can see the need for high performance car and bikes, just reckon you could buy a pretty serious car for the same price as a landcruiser or a sorento

donvito99

moose112 wrote: »

Just wondering why there a need for so many garda jeeps, can't imagine too many cross country chases or trailers to be towed.
I just think they are a waste of money as i was always led to believe jeeps have a high centre of gravity and tend to flip over quite easy a high speeds around cornors.
Now don't get me wrong this aint garda bashing, I can see the need for high performance car and bikes, just reckon you could buy a pretty serious car for the same price as a landcruiser or a sorento

Very powerfull, able to ram vehicles without sustaining much damage, plenty of storage, good crash tests, capable of going croos country, high vantage point(;)), the list goes on.

But really, why not?

moose112

donvito99 wrote: »

Very powerfull, able to ram vehicles without sustaining much damage, plenty of storage, good crash tests, capable of going croos country, high vantage point(;)), the list goes on.

But really, why not?

Do the garda actually go around raming that many cars and would that not be a pretty dangerous thing to do in chase?

Reckon a good estate car has as much if not more space than a passenger wagon jeep.

Don't think any of the 4x4's currently on the market have that seven star safety rating(could be wrong on that)

How many cross country chases happen every year?

Ok i will give you the high vantage point:rolleyes:


I know i am probably getting onto the wrong guys as more than likely the person resonsible for purchasing vehicles, is sitting in an office some where in dublin and knows as much about police cars as i do:D

donvito99

moose112 wrote: »

Do the garda actually go around raming that many cars and would that not be a pretty dangerous thing to do in chase?

It is much more dangerous to allow a chase to continue when you have the ability ti end it there and then with a 4 by 4.

moose112 wrote:

Reckon a good estate car has as much if not more space than a passenger wagon jeep.

I wouldnt say theres much of a difference, jeeps are wider and taller.

moose112 wrote:

Don't think any of the 4x4's currently on the market have that seven star safety rating(could be wrong on that)

However they are very robust and can be thrown around the place alot if ya know what I mean.

moose112 wrote:

How many cross country chases happen every year?

Not very many but thats not really the point.

moose112 wrote:

Ok i will give you the high vantage point:rolleyes:

Fair enough.

moose112 wrote:

I know i am probably getting onto the wrong guys as more than likely the person resonsible for purchasing vehicles, is sitting in an office some where in dublin and knows as much about police cars as i do:D

AMEN!

deadwood

I see a need for 4X4's in some areas where the terrain demands it but as far as I can see, they generally cruise around city streets and motorways. As usual, management have a blinkered view in this regard.

A well marked van has a much better visual impact and i've never seen a car overtake one on a motorway yet!.

4X4's are sh1te for pursuits. Fine in a straight line at speed, but negotiating corners, most of these automatics are left sitting by a clapped out civic.

As for ramming? I don't believe for one second that this is considered, officially or unofficially. The bull bars were removed years ago after a few calls to Joe Duffy, despite some callers "in the know" claiming they offered protection from being rammed, which is complete tosh.

4X4's have a pretty poor NCAP rating too.

Anyway, think of the little flowers.

donvito99

deadwood wrote: »

As for ramming? I don't believe for one second that this is considered, officially or unofficially. The bull bars were removed years ago after a few calls to Joe Duffy, despite some callers "in the know" claiming they offered protection from being rammed, which is complete tosh.

Point taken, but I still think that a 4*4 stands a better chance of working after a ramming then a Mondeo, even though the Mondeo is better in the pursuit.

deadwood wrote:

Anyway, think of the little flowers.

Yeah, but they're now carbon neutral because of these...

Random

I love the jeeps. I think they promote a strong image to the public of power, authority etc which the Gardai are really lacking in some aspects.

It's the Yaris's that I think are a waste of money, time and effort. They serve no real purpose in the eyes of the public other than to make the garda in it look small, inferior and a target.

My 3c....

donvito99

The Yaris looks like a PowerPuff Girl.

deadwood

Size doesn't matter.:D

sdanseo

Only reason 4x4's don't get great safety ratings is because they take the safety of whatever it is they hit into account also :P

Although I did see a LR Disco crumpled on top gear once, not nice at all. Good while ago though.

Random

deadwood wrote: »

Size doesn't matter.:D

It's what you do with it .. we know ... but what can you do with a feckin Yaris?

Whitewater-AGS

Random wrote: »

It's what you do with it .. we know ... but what can you do with a feckin Yaris?

Not great on straights but it weights the same as a can of beans and corners like a go-cart, great fun trust me.

Hooch

4x4s are of great use. They are not and never will be a response vehicle. This is rammed into you in the course:P:D. It is great for visibality while still delievering great acceleration on straights.

The 4x4s are mostly for going into rural scenes and towing trailers......and yes it is used in those roles more than people think.

They are a must in the Policing of the state. As stated it is the yaris and fiestas that are a waste of money IMO. More 2 ltr mondeos and better advanced cars instead of micro cars!!

Zambia

I wont disagree 4x4 have their place however the whole process of buying Garda vehicles baffles me. You have several types makes and models of all types of vehicles this must make sourcing spares/suppliers and service a pain.

Surely if this process was streamlined and 1 car was approved as a patrol car lets say a Mondeo and everything focused(no pun intended) on them.

The same done for vans and 4x4's

It from the outside looks as if some admin bloke trawls the paper for good car deals every few weeks and sends them of to the sign writers.

Hooch

Zambia232 wrote: »

I wont disagree 4x4 have their place however the whole process of buying Garda vehicles baffles me. You have several types makes and models of all types of vehicles this must make sourcing spares/suppliers and service a pain.

Surely if this process was streamlined and 1 car was approved as a patrol car lets say a Mondeo and everything focused(no pun intended) on them.

The same done for vans and 4x4's

It from the outside looks as if some admin bloke trawls the paper for good car deals every few weeks and sends them of to the sign writers.

I agreed to some extent. The problem comes with unmarked vehicles. Different makes and models help unmarked vehicles.

Terrontress

nice guy always wrote: »

I agreed to some extent. The problem comes with unmarked vehicles. Different makes and models help unmarked vehicles.

But that is a specialised vehicle. I have stated on here before that AGS should throw their weight behind a single vehicle such as, but not necessarily, the Mondeo. It could be the 5-Series, Skoda Superb, Insignia. It doesn't matter. But there should be a Cop standard car. There would be savings through bulk buying, savings on servicing, ability to stockpile spares.

Specialist vehicles? That's another matter.

I read an interesting article in the most recent Top Gear magazine, stating that as sales of exec cars have fallen, sales of 4x4s have risen.

Do Ford still do a 4x4 option on the Mondeo? I know Skoda do a 4x4 Octo.

Hooch

Terrontress wrote: »

But that is a specialised vehicle. I have stated on here before that AGS should throw their weight behind a single vehicle such as, but not necessarily, the Mondeo. It could be the 5-Series, Skoda Superb, Insignia. It doesn't matter. But there should be a Cop standard car. There would be savings through bulk buying, savings on servicing, ability to stockpile spares.

Specialist vehicles? That's another matter.

I read an interesting article in the most recent Top Gear magazine, stating that as sales of exec cars have fallen, sales of 4x4s have risen.

Do Ford still do a 4x4 option on the Mondeo? I know Skoda do a 4x4 Octo.

Im not disagreeing with you, I agree that we need one GOOD vehicle for standard patrol cars. But bar regular units every other vehicle is considered Specialist vehicles. Traffic are specialist vehicles as are D/branch and RSU vehicles.

If we could get two standard vehicles like 2 ltr minimum mondeos and Volvos (or BMWs or Skoda Octivia RS etc) But unmarked vehicles should be as varied as the vehicles on an everyday trip down a motorway.

Didnt know Ford did a 4x4 mondeo but your right about the Octivia

FGR

The procurement section in AGS is, like any other state body, obliged to put all procurement contracts to tender - giving every motor company the opportunity to make a bid and thus ensure fair and impartial opportunities to all parties involved; not just one specific company with a contract.

I don't agree with it; as I believe uniformity is paramount..and it's a pleasant sight seeing ten+ traffic Mondeos lined next to one another.

It's a different site when you mix in a Vectra/Focus/Yaris.

Zambia

ForegoneReality wrote: »

The procurement section in AGS is, like any other state body, obliged to put all procurement contracts to tender - giving every motor company the opportunity to make a bid and thus ensure fair and impartial opportunities to all parties involved; not just one specific company with a contract.

I don't agree with it; as I believe uniformity is paramount..and it's a pleasant sight seeing ten+ traffic Mondeos lined next to one another.

It's a different site when you mix in a Vectra/Focus/Yaris.

I agree with you on this but as opposed to that tender being

Who will give us the best price on a car it should be

Who will give us the best price on a {state Vehicle Make model + extras}. If a company like ford thought that it was guaranteed the sale of x amount of Mondeos to the AGS every year imagine the effort it would go to to get the best price for the AGS.

I mean at one piont I saw the AGS buying cherokees no with respect the world and its dog new they where a b*tch to keep on the road. Whereas it took a bazooka to take a landcruiser of the road.

As for unmarked yes I would consider that specialist vehicles and can be done in a more hap hazard way.

source

The reason for many makes and models, is down to the fact that AGS do not service vehicles, there is no mechanical dept to fix up cars, therefore cars are bought for an area, with proximity to a local dealer in mind, this way there's no issue with spares and the car can be brought into the garage and have repairs done there and then, instead of having to be sent to a regional or divisional garage for the repairs, which would have it off the road for longer.

I do however agree with uniformity, and don't see the tender process as an issue, the army can specify one type of vehicle for their standard jeep, namely the nissan patrol, so why can't AGS? all that management has to do is state in the tender that it is for a 5 or 10 year period, for a standard police specific patrol car (say the mondeo, there's a ford garage in almost every district in the country) with x amount to be provided each year, with the option to by additional units yearly should the need arise.

donvito99

Just out of curiosity, whats the ratio of unmarked to marked? I heard that AGS have much more unmarked compared to marked. My local station has 3 unmarked mondeos, 1 unmarked focus, a marked Mondeo and a marked van.

Zambia232

Zambia232 wrote: »

I agree with you on this but as opposed to that tender being

Who will give us the best price on a car it should be

Who will give us the best price on a {state Vehicle Make model + extras}. If a company like ford thought that it was guaranteed the sale of x amount of Mondeos to the AGS every year imagine the effort it would go to to get the best price for the AGS.

I mean at one piont I saw the AGS buying cherokees no with respect the world and its dog new they where a b*tch to keep on the road. Whereas it took a bazooka to take a landcruiser of the road.

As for unmarked yes I would consider that specialist vehicles and can be done in a more hap hazard way.

This arguement about what we drive is getting old now. Every vehicle thread that comes up always descends into what we have and why.

Most mules seem to be happy with the Mondeo's. The price from Ford is the lowest possible that they can give. This was published in a Government report last year. Bascially Ford want the business so they give the lowest prices.

The Yaris, Punto's and Fiesta's are NOT response cars, and only ever will be when there is no other car to be had in a station. They are used by warrants units and community police units, not the only car responding to an armed robbery.

The 4X4's are also used by specialist units. The Mounted Unit and Traffic are the biggest users. Mounted Unit its obvious why. Traffic use them because of the amount of equipment that they can carry. Also, they are higher than most cars around and if at an accident scene you will notice them before you would notice a patrol car or estate. Also, the Traffic Corp Landcruisers assigned to the M50 are being fitted with the matrix signs which can display various messages.

Like this
vvvvvv

petergfiffin

I'm not a Guard but I remember the really bad floods and asking why the Guards didn't have vehicles that could handle the weather, if I remember rightly it was a Garda Landcruiser that towed out that ambulance that got stuck on the N3.

Was watching a British cop show a while back and the guy responding was driving a BMW X5 which can give most conventional cars a run for their money!!

Del2005

petergfiffin wrote: »

I'm not a Guard but I remember the really bad floods and asking why the Guards didn't have vehicles that could handle the weather, if I remember rightly it was a Garda Landcruiser that towed out that ambulance that got stuck on the N3.

A 4x4, unless fitted with a proper snorkel kit, can get stuck in a flood as easy as most cars. The air intake is behind the headlights and not that much higher then a standard car.
And as Mr Jonhson said when the UK had the heavy snow, why spend millons on something that is only needed once every few years.

Was watching a British cop show a while back and the guy responding was driving a BMW X5 which can give most conventional cars a run for their money!!

A 4x4 will always be unstable and at risk of rollover if driven hard on anything bar motorways/good N roads. With all the extra load in Garda 4x4s they will be even more unstable then most 4x4s. A 530i would cost roughly the same, beat all cars and not put it's occupants at a risk of rollover and since the X5 is only a tarted up 5 the load area is the same.

meathstevie

As one of the guys here said they're great for carrying four or five people depending on the particular make and type and still have the space in the back to haul a load of kit around.

I don't work for AGS but I can imagine that there's plenty of use for them in units like the mounted unit ( horse trailer, a load of kit in the back ), divers ( pull the boat have the kit in the back ), traffic corps ( motorway crash : all the goodies like cones and temporary traffic signs in the back, never mind the tripods for speedguns etc ). Even as a standard vehicle in the more rural rugged areas they have a purpose, I cant see anyone heading to a call halfway up a mountain in West-Cork and getting there without a stiff walk ( huge waste of time ) in a Mondeo or an Avensis.

Hooch

Del2005 wrote: »

A 4x4, unless fitted with a proper snorkel kit, can get stuck in a flood as easy as most cars. The air intake is behind the headlights and not that much higher then a standard car.
And as Mr Jonhson said when the UK had the heavy snow, why spend millons on something that is only needed once every few years.

Air intake in a Landcruiser is on top of the engine block which is at level with the steering wheel, not behind the headlights. One reason why the are used by most ES. Plenty high. Snorkels allow a vehicle to go into water above this level but why would you. I'd prefer to return to the station driving the 4x4, not requesting the water unit to come down the flood after me.

Terrontress

Zambia232 wrote: »

I agree with you on this but as opposed to that tender being

Who will give us the best price on a car it should be

Who will give us the best price on a {state Vehicle Make model + extras}. If a company like ford thought that it was guaranteed the sale of x amount of Mondeos to the AGS every year imagine the effort it would go to to get the best price for the AGS.

I mean at one piont I saw the AGS buying cherokees no with respect the world and its dog new they where a b*tch to keep on the road. Whereas it took a bazooka to take a landcruiser of the road.

As for unmarked yes I would consider that specialist vehicles and can be done in a more hap hazard way.

All that would need to be done to keep the cars on the road is to give the service contract with a clause to collect and return damaged cars in a certain timeframe.

As for unmarked, what could be more anonymous than a Mondeo? As long as it is not flat red with no wheel trims.

Traumadoc

The 4 PSNI officers recently killed show the danger of these vehicles especially if they roll over.
If they are to be used surely they should be fitted with roll bars?

booms mcd

donvito99 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, whats the ratio of unmarked to marked? I heard that AGS have much more unmarked compared to marked. My local station has 3 unmarked mondeos, 1 unmarked focus, a marked Mondeo and a marked van.

'The Inspectorate has also noted that last year only
about two-fifths of all Garda cars and vans carried
Garda markings'

Hope that cats sorted,

From Garda Inspectorate Report 2007

donvito99

booms mcd wrote: »

'The Inspectorate has also noted that last year only
about two-fifths of all Garda cars and vans carried
Garda markings'

Hope that cats sorted,

From Garda Inspectorate Report 2007

Yea thats the one i was thinkin of.

moose112

TBH I ain't been convinced about the use of 4x4's apart from the mounted and sub aqua units and some remote rural areas. The only other trailer i have ever seen behind a AGS 4x4 was a 8x4 ifor williams trailer bit cheaper to probably just fit a tow bar to a Transit.
The booths in passenger wagon landcruisers and sorento's i argue ain't bigger than most estate cars.

Traumadoc

Traumadoc wrote: »

The 4 PSNI officers recently killed show the danger of these vehicles especially if they roll over.
If they are to be used surely they should be fitted with roll bars?

The PSNI use their 4X4's as response vehicles, we don't. They were Mitsubishi L200's, the Gardai use Landcruisers, mostly for the Traffic Corp.

moose112 wrote: »

TBH I ain't been convinced about the use of 4x4's apart from the mounted and sub aqua units and some remote rural areas. The only other trailer i have ever seen behind a AGS 4x4 was a 8x4 ifor williams trailer bit cheaper to probably just fit a tow bar to a Transit.
The booths in passenger wagon landcruisers and sorento's i argue ain't bigger than most estate cars.

Vans should only be used for carrying personnel and prisoners, not towing trailers. Again, the Gardai use 4X4's for specialist purposes, Sub-Aqua, Mounted Unit, Traffic Corp and the people who don't get named:cool:. As I said earlier on, what are you more likely to see first at an accident, a tall 4X4 or a standard patrol car or estate.

And also keep in mind that there are only 92 4X4's in the Garda fleet compared to 1769 cars. Source Page 6