Car tax included in petrol/diesel?

sogood

While I don't like paying €1,500 per annum road tax, it's my choice to drive the car I do, so I have to grin and bear it. However, as I work seasonally and need to use my car to get to work, where it remains parked for up to 2 weeks at a time, it seems unfair to spend all that money just to use it occasionally. My work pattern is erratic, so hard to predict where or when I'll need my car, especially on days off, when I want to be mobile. So to that end I thought, why isnt road tax, taken as an average and applied as a percentage on every litre of fuel, based on average annual mileage. This means everyone pays road tax if they drive and more importantly, they pay their fair share, based on how much they drive. I would pay more through the winter months, as I drive my car much more then, also given the fact that it uses more fuel, I'd be paying more. From May to October I drive very little, at a cost of €800 approx. In the same period, a much smaller car could clock up 10,000 km for €150! Using the roads more, doing more damage/wear and tear etc. Under this scheme, everyone would pay tax, based on your driving, like PAYE, based on your income. A plus would be having your car laid up for 2 or 3 weeks at a time means no road tax lost, unlike the present system, where a full calendar month is the minimum refund amount.Maybe do the maths, take your present car, what MPG do you get, whats your annual mileage and arrive at how much petrol you use so you will see how much extra per litre you would have to pay to tax your car. It would be pennies, as opposed to laying out wads of money in one chunk. Any thoughts? Is this system in use anywhere else?

Paulw

The admin work on such would cost too much. How could you prove that the car wasn't being used? A very economical car would have a very different usage profile from a petrol guzzling car.

Also, what about diesel??

I don't think your idea is practical.

Owen

I'd rather see compulsory third party insurance included in the price of petrol like they do in other countries, however, I'd also like as an alternative see road tax abolished, and a price levy added onto the litre of petrol/diesel. I realise that might not suit commercial drivers with cheap tax who are on the road every day of the week, but I'm like the OP in that I have a car which costs around 450 to tax a year, that I do about 3k miles in.

roosterman71

Its practical alright.

Just add 3/4/5 or 10c on a litre of fuel instead of having to pay motor tax (no such thing as road tax). Easy to administer, less work needed by revenue to get in the money (no reminders, no need to print tax disks, and all other admin work), plus no way to not pay it. If ya want to drive, you must have fuel, and to get fuel you pay the tax.

There must be some reason though this hasn't been introduced already

EPM

So being forced to drive 80 miles to work I'd wind up paying a fortune effectively being penalised for doing so? Could always go on the dole I suppose...

It's a silly idea IMHO, people know what they are getting into when they buy bigger engines simple as.

+1 on the insurance suggestion mind

sogood

Paulw wrote: »

The admin work on such would cost too much. How could you prove that the car wasn't being used? A very economical car would have a very different usage profile from a petrol guzzling car.

Also, what about diesel??

I don't think your idea is practical.

The admin is there already, the government collects tax on petrol already, just increase this tax by the correct overall amount to ensure that they collect at least as much revenue as they already do from road tax. And as for proving your car is or isnt on the road?? Thats my point, when you use it, you pay, by virtue of the fact that you're burning petrol, when you dont, you dont! Pay As You Drive! As it is, your car is taxed for 365 days, and nights of the year. How many hours is that? How many hours do you drive each year? How many hours does your car sit parked up, at work, at home etc.? Also, the heading says, "road tax on petrol/diesel"

sogood

EPM wrote: »

So being forced to drive 80 miles to work I'd wind up paying a fortune effectively being penalised for doing so? Could always go on the dole I suppose...

It's a silly idea IMHO, people know what they are getting into when they buy bigger engines simple as.

+1 on the insurance suggestion mind

No you wouldnt be penalised, you'd just be paying your fair share, ie. 80 miles worth of motor tax for 80 miles worth of driving/ using the roads, on the basis of 80 miles worth of petrol. The existing motor tax admin could be used to oversee and run the system. I'm not totally griping about paying the motor tax that I do, it's my choice, just unfair to pay so much for restricted use. Whereas you get much better use from our roads, but object to paying proportionately. I once drove a 2 litre granada, then went up to 2.8 litre. Motor tax went through the roof for .8 of a litre, totally disproportionate, for a car of the same physical size and weight almost, yet I was burning more petrol and paying more tax on that, which wasn't good enough for revenue.

ART6

EPM wrote: »

So being forced to drive 80 miles to work I'd wind up paying a fortune effectively being penalised for doing so? Could always go on the dole I suppose...

It's a silly idea IMHO, people know what they are getting into when they buy bigger engines simple as.

Whether or not you would be penalised for your home to work mileage depends on what the tax on fuel is set to. In assessing that, the first result of a fuel tax instead of an annual tax would be that, as has already been said, it would eliminate the annual motor tax dodgers, so the revenue to the government would immediately increase. Equally it would not change the situation of those who elect to buy bigger engines. If you do that then you will burn more fuel and pay more tax. It's your choice.

Going on from that, it would be possible to use the difference between commercial and private registration to set the tax level. A commercially registered diesel vehicle could attract a different tax rate, and to avoid that having to be administered at the pumps it would be simple enough to deal with it in the same way that VAT is dealt with in commercial operations. Simply claim back the excess tax every two months in the same way that VAT is reclaimed. From the Revenue point of view, just like VAT, they then get the use of your money for up to two months.

Seems to me that the scheme would significantly increase government income, reduce administration, and make the motoring costs fair and reasonable. The only issue might be that at present I believe annual motor tax is used to fund local government, so the fuel tax would have to be on a county level rather like in the USA where there are state taxes that are distinguished from federal taxes.

I propose the OP for Minister of Transport:D

Evil-1

Or we could simply adopt the Japaneese system whereby your road tax is calculated on the milage between an NCT every 12 months , and if your odometer is found to be tampered with (clocked) your car will be crushed and both you and the person who worked on it will recieve heavy fines and a possible ban on driving (prison in a worst case scenario)

Dabko

by doing something like incorporating the road tax into the cost of fuel, you would be crippling the very life line of the Irish economy - transportation and haulage.

Road tax on commercial vehicles (lets say small vans - 288 euro per annum) is set at a price to express the necessity of the usage of the vehicle for the companies survival. By upping the price per litre of fuel, you would be putting sh1t loads of businesses and jobs in jeopardy. I think the country is in a messy enough state as it is:o

galwaytt

Dabko wrote: »

by doing something like incorporating the road tax into the cost of fuel, you would be crippling the very life line of the Irish economy - transportation and haulage.

Road tax on commercial vehicles (lets say small vans - 288 euro per annum) is set at a price to express the necessity of the usage of the vehicle for the companies survival. By upping the price per litre of fuel, you would be putting sh1t loads of businesses and jobs in jeopardy. I think the country is in a messy enough state as it is:o

Rubbish. You could submit your petrol/diesel returns along with your monthly VAT returns, and get a credit. No need to fork out anything. Would also ensure the only legit hauliers etc get the benefit of low tax rates, and moonlighters, wouldn't.

McSpud

This makes too much sense to be implemented here. Besides the boggers (rural dwellers) would complain that they are penalised as they have to travel further.

Collection tax via by fuel usage has zero cost to the state & they coul redploy all those Motor tax people to other more useful jobs. From a government perspective increases (or reductions0 in tax would be quick & easy to implement. The suggestion above about including third party insurance in fuel price is also a good idea as would eliminate uninsurer drivers overnight & also reduce wasted Garda time at checkpoints.

Mossy Monk

It makes sense. Will wipe out those who don't pay road tax with the current system.

Dabko

galwaytt wrote: »

Rubbish. You could submit your petrol/diesel returns along with your monthly VAT returns, and get a credit. No need to fork out anything. Would also ensure the only legit hauliers etc get the benefit of low tax rates, and moonlighters, wouldn't.

Good point. However, as i slowly waste my life at this exact time putting together a vat return, this would mean even more blasted red tape and paper work.

colm_mcm

As far as I know, the reason they don't do this is to do with the consumer price index.

milltown

I've long been an advocate of this, making it a usage tax rather than an ownership tax. If the will was there, there are very few reasons why it couldn't be done. The main one I can think of is, unless her majesty's government adopt the same scheme, there won't be a litre of juice bought within 20 or 30 miles of the border.

sogood

McSpud wrote: »

This makes too much sense to be implemented here. Besides the boggers (rural dwellers) would complain that they are penalised as they have to travel further.

Collection tax via by fuel usage has zero cost to the state & they coul redploy all those Motor tax people to other more useful jobs. From a government perspective increases (or reductions0 in tax would be quick & easy to implement. The suggestion above about including third party insurance in fuel price is also a good idea as would eliminate uninsurer drivers overnight & also reduce wasted Garda time at checkpoints.

As a one time Dub and now a settled bogger, I drive a little more, by choice, cos there are so many nice places to visit, however, mileage in Dublin may have been lower, but much of that was spent sitting in traffic. I'm much happier to burn petrol if I'm actually getting somewhere!

sogood

milltown wrote: »

I've long been an advocate of this, making it a usage tax rather than an ownership tax. If the will was there, there are very few reasons why it couldn't be done. The main one I can think of is, unless her majesty's government adopt the same scheme, there won't be a litre of juice bought within 20 or 30 miles of the border.[/quote]

That happens either way, as prices fluctuate. We arent tied to the UK's apron strings any more, we just tug on them when it suits us. Anyway, has anyone done the maths yet? I'm still converting gallons to litres!!!!

galwaytt

Dabko wrote: »

Good point. However, as i slowly waste my life at this exact time putting together a vat return, this would mean even more blasted red tape and paper work.

I'm not unsympathetic - at this hour I'm doing audit paperwork......but you'd be amazed what a guy'd do to save 1500.....

Eoin

roosterman71 wrote: »

Its practical alright.

Just add 3/4/5 or 10c on a litre of fuel instead of having to pay motor tax (no such thing as road tax). Easy to administer, less work needed by revenue to get in the money (no reminders, no need to print tax disks, and all other admin work), plus no way to not pay it. If ya want to drive, you must have fuel, and to get fuel you pay the tax.

There must be some reason though this hasn't been introduced already

Using very rough figures and guesses last year, I came to the figure of about 40c a litre for the government to break even. I can imagine the traffic on the M1 if that was brought in.

sogood

galwaytt wrote: »

I'm not unsympathetic - at this hour I'm doing audit paperwork......but you'd be amazed what a guy'd do to save 1500.....

Its not entirely about saving €1500, but if everyone was paying their road tax via their fuel, which includes those "unsettled" members of society, people who work on cars and sell them on, banger racers, etc. etc. then perhaps we would all pay less. Either way, it would spread the financial burden over the whole year, on a daily basis, and avoid postage, form filling, queuing in line etc. etc. Anyway, I intend hanging on to my baby for enough more years when it will qualify for "classic" tax, at €46, (I think) per annum. As for classic tax, would it be possible to be issued with a dedicated cert for a classic car, enabling you to claim refunds or get your fuel at a reduced rate, with a maximum annual fuel allowance. This would ensure you werent filling up at the reduced rate and then siphoning it off for friends or family members. For every problem, there is an answer.

sogood

eoin wrote: »

Using very rough figures and guesses last year, I came to the figure of about 40c a litre for the government to break even. I can imagine the traffic on the M1 if that was brought in.

Are you saying that you personally would have to pay 40 cent per litre extra, to pay the equivalent amount as you're already paying in road tax? I dont understand your point about the M1. Northern drivers would be subject to the same price, as its collected at the pumps and southern drivers would hardly gain by going north, with their price difference.

Eoin

sogood wrote: »

Are you saying that you personally would have to pay 40 cent per litre extra, to pay the equivalent amount as you're already paying in road tax?

Nope - I mean that's what the government would need to take in to break even. I think someone posted the annual motor tax revenue and/or number of taxed Irish cars, and I guessed average annual mileage, MPG and engine size.

As I said, it was all very rough estimation, but even if I'm 100% off it's still a big increase - though I suppose still less than what we were paying last year.

sogood wrote: »

I dont understand your point about the M1. Northern drivers would be subject to the same price, as its collected at the pumps and southern drivers would hardly gain by going north, with their price difference.

As currencies and fuel prices fluctuate, the North can become more appealing. It was a throwaway comment anyway.

sogood

Another thought; If you could car pool/ share with a neighbour on alternate days, then you would both cut your motor tax bill roughly in half, as opposed to the present system when you pay it even when it's sitting in the driveway. Surely the Greens couldn't complain about that, reducing your carbon footprint! If it had the potential to help the environment, wouldn't they have to back it?

Eoin

That would make sense though. I think you'd need some mechanism to cater for hauliers, couriers, taxis and the like. I've never quite understood why commecial vehicles pay less road tax anyway, instead of letting them deduct the full amount as an expense.

P.C.

Doing the maths very roughly - an extra 4c a litre would cover me.

Ie - if I had to pay an extra 4c a litre over the year then my spend on petrol would equal my current spend on petrol and 'road tax'.

So, I would be quiet happy with this idea.

sogood

P.C. wrote: »

Doing the maths very roughly - an extra 4c a litre would cover me.

Ie - if I had to pay an extra 4c a litre over the year then my spend on petrol would equal my current spend on petrol and 'road tax'.

So, I would be quiet happy with this idea.

Thanks for that input. I think it would be a lot less painful than laying down bigger money in chunks. What did you base your figures on, with regard to mpg and annual mileage? What is your annual motor tax at the moment? Thanks in anticipation.

Gregor Samsa

Unfortunately, I can see how this would pan out. Let say the current Government abolishes road tax and applies an equivalent tax on fuel as suggested. Every couple of years, this tax goes up - but that's fair enough, as road tax does that now. Then in 15 years time (our next recession), the county's coffers are empty again, and some bright spark Minister for Finance comes up with the brain wave: Vehicle Ownership Levy. So they stick a yearly tax on every vehicle, while we're still paying the current road tax on fuel, along with duty and VAT. And VRT.

I'm not saying there isn't a fairer way to collect taxes, but the nature of Government means that even if it starts off fair, it will won't last long.

Remember, Income Tax was introduced by William Pitt in 1798 as a temporary tax to fund preparation for the Napoleonic wars...

Eoin

I'm trying to work this out actually.

My road tax is 935 for the year. I do about 9000 miles per year, which at 350 miles per tank full means I fill up about 25 times. That takes around 65 litres - so ~1600 litres per year.

So, unless they added over 55c per litre, I'd be better off. Or have I arsed up my sums completely?

unkel

eoin wrote: »

Using very rough figures and guesses last year, I came to the figure of about 40c a litre for the government to break even. I can imagine the traffic on the M1 if that was brought in.

So did I and I came up with a similar figure of about 40c last year iirc. Back then the 40c would have brought our fuel prices roughly in line with UK ones, but since then the duty increases in this country and the much weaker sterling would make fuel significantly cheaper in the North.

But so what? Fuel shopping would only be interesting for people near-ish the border anyway and price differences between north and south have been a reality for decades.

The "polluter pays" principle of paying at the pump is as just and fair as principles get, but no politician in this country seems to have the balls to suggest it. Especially not those eunuch greens :rolleyes:

P.C.

eoin wrote: »

I'm trying to work this out actually.

My road tax is 935 for the year. I do about 9000 miles per year, which at 350 miles per tank full means I fill up about 25 times. That takes around 65 litres - so ~1600 litres per year.

So, unless they added over 55c per litre, I'd be better off. Or have I arsed up my sums completely?

Simple way to do it -

take the tax you pay, and divide by the litres you use in a year.

So, in your case, and extra 55c per litre would be right.

Some of us drive a lot more, and pay less tax.

Eoin

P.C. wrote: »

Simple way to do it -

take the tax you pay, and divide by the litres you use in a year.

I had to go the long way around to get the litres I use anyway, so I don't feel too stupid now.

P.C.

eoin wrote: »

I had to go the long way around to get the litres I use anyway, so I don't feel too stupid now.

Don't worry, I had to have a quick look at the last CC bill to see what my average spend on fuel is.

But, if you look at the new tax bands, it would bring the cost per litre way down.

sogood

eoin wrote: »

I'm trying to work this out actually.

My road tax is 935 for the year. I do about 9000 miles per year, which at 350 miles per tank full means I fill up about 25 times. That takes around 65 litres - so ~1600 litres per year.

So, unless they added over 55c per litre, I'd be better off. Or have I arsed up my sums completely?

I think you're near enough the mark, on the basis that you use 1,600 litres per annum. You pay €935 motor tax, so, if you put 1cent on each litre, that would raise €16. To raise €935 you would have to divide your €935 by 16 arriving at 58cent, I think!! If this is the case, the point is, you wouldnt spend any more than you do, but possibly less, for whenever your car isnt being driven. Plus, everyone would be paying motor tax, thus reducing the overall burden. Either way, an average would have to be arrived at, based on total motor tax revenue, as it is now and total fuel consumption countrywide, to devise a formula that would work, creating an average. Maths was never my strong point. I'm still unclear as to how many men it took to dig that hole in 3 days !

skyhighflyer

I'd be delighted, as a low mileage motorist, if they introduced road tax and a third party insurance levy into the cost of fuel.

However, the only reason I would be against it is that it would turn petrol station owners into the Revenue, and massively increase the number of drive offs. This wouldn't be a problem if the system operated like in the UK, where a third party intermediary company had access to the DVLA (VRO) records and operated debt collection on behalf of the site owners, but speaking from experience, the Irish system whereby only the Guards have access to such info could mess everything up. Justifiably, the Guards are more interested in solving violent crime rather than petrol station drive offs and yet if they're the only ones with access to the relevant info how else are station owners going to recoup the thousands that would be lost from drive offs?

McSpud

The 40-60c figures above seem accurate. Of course if the government really interested in environmental issues this I am sure would have a big reduction on how much people use cars.

At the moment you pay flat fee for motor tax so only money you save by not using car is fuel cost. With new system the cost per mile used would increase by 50% therefore meaning greater link between usage & cost.

slade_x

honestly i wouldnt even mind paying for tax if the roads around here were decent enough, a lot of roads around here need resurfacing and nothing seems to be done, its a joke. some roads get a little attention for large enough potholes, but they just end up getting filled with gravel and opening up again

unkel

McSpud wrote: »

The 40-60c figures above seem accurate. Of course if the government really interested in environmental issues this I am sure would have a big reduction on how much people use cars.

At the moment you pay flat fee for motor tax so only money you save by not using car is fuel cost. With new system the cost per mile used would increase by 50% therefore meaning greater link between usage & cost.

This is a crucial point. If there is an alternative mode of transport (bus, bike, walk, carpool, train, etc.) that would save a lot of money, people would consider it.

Of course any change in the taxation regime will unfairly hit some people, like the people who bought a house far away from their place of work or people down the country who do not have any public transport, etc. Can't please everyone all the time though...

kuro_man

Applying to fuel much fairer, every pays their way including tourists; large engine/co2 cars don't damge the road anymore than smallers ones. larger engine cars with low mileage use less fuel/co2 than a polo diesel doing 16-20k a year and you can tax 7 polos for the price of one 3-litre

I would image that such punitive rates of motor tax (e.g. > €1600p.a) encourages non-compliance which defeats the purpose.

kuro_man

unkel wrote: »

Of course any change in the taxation regime will unfairly hit some people, like the people who bought a house far away from their place of work or people down the country who do not have any public transport, etc. Can't please everyone all the time though...

a higher cost per-mile will make public transport more viable and houses in the arsehole of nowhere less viable. anyway, people in dublin get extra costs all the time (home insurance. motor insurance, stamp duty, drinks etc.) and they don't go whinging all the time. people in high-mileage small engined cars are being subsidised by owners of low-mileage large engine cars; thats hardly fair.

Hagar

You want them to put an extra few cents tax per litre and do away with a seperate Motor Tax? You're joking aren't you? What incentive have the Govt got to include Motor Tax in the cost of petrol? None whatsoever.

The truth is they can and do charge both forms of tax at any rate they like and will continue to do so. If they can think up a third tax to add on as well be sure that they will do it. Don't expect fairness in taxation of the motorist anytime soon in Ireland.

Lord Derpington

Sorry if this has been mentioned already.

What about if i want to mow my lawn and i go buy petrol for my lawn mower, or get fuel for the generator.

In theory it is imo a good idea, but in practise it would have a lot of flaws.

I like the French system, there is no motor tax but there is however a charge on major roads (like a toll pretyt much) but instead if paying a fixed toll you take a slip and are charged for the amount of the road you drive on.

eg. off at first exit after getting ticket 50c, second 75c ect

McSpud

greenfly wrote: »

What about if i want to mow my lawn and i go buy petrol for my lawn mower, or get fuel for the generator.

No system is perfect. That would hardly involve huge sums of money anyway.

AFAIK motor tax is currently goes into local authority budgets in lieu of water charges. Motor Tac has never been used for road maintenance as that money is allocated centrally from the governmemt.

Eoin

Hagar wrote: »

You want them to put an extra few cents tax per litre and do away with a seperate Motor Tax? You're joking aren't you? What incentive have the Govt got to include Motor Tax in the cost of petrol? None whatsoever.

The truth is they can and do charge both forms of tax at any rate they like and will continue to do so. If they can think up a third tax to add on as well be sure that they will do it. Don't expect fairness in taxation of the motorist anytime soon in Ireland.

I suppose the selling points would be that it would have to be revenue neutral at the very least. It would catch most the motor tax dodgers.

It would be much closer to a "polluter pays" principle than the current regime that doesn't take into account the non-CO2 emissions from diesels and doesn't encourage people to car pool.

There would be far less enforcement required, and I'd say the administration would be easier too.

However, as I said, they would have to take into account taxis, couriers and hauliers and the likes, and also see if there are any legal problems with regards to foreign visitors. Also, I am a low mileage motorist, so it would suit me fine unless I did more mileage and/or the hike was really high.

People who pay less tax but do more driving will probably feel differently. Classic car owners as well, but I wonder if the current low tax for them assumes that they are low mileage vehicles as well.

Of course, I can't see this ever happening - but I do think there would be incentives for them.

greenfly wrote:

What about if i want to mow my lawn and i go buy petrol for my lawn mower, or get fuel for the generator.

Should that be exempt in the first place though?